Posted: 2/15/2012 3:40:09 PM EDT
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Hey Everyone,
I was just reading through the most recent publication of government code issued by Texas DPS in regards to concealed carry, looking for an answer to this. Hypothetically speaking, are you in the wrong at any point (assuming you are carrying legally) by drawing your firearm if you feel threatened by another individual? Just for clarification sake, let me provide a scenario: You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? As a side question, say that you do indeed draw your firearm as described above and the individual turns around and runs off. At this point do you re-holster and continue on with your day or is there a need to contact law enforcement? Thanks |
| First problem is that if you feel that you are bing followed then turn around and yell at that person(S) to stop. If he/they don't stop(like a reasonable person would) then you have justifacation to draw your firearm and what not. But if you feel immediately thereatened and there is no time to deter then pulling your gun is not completely unreasonable. |
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Quoted: You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? There is a good chance you could be charged with Disorderly Person. In your scenario, what if the person is not following you and is a LEO or CHL? Next step is someone is notifying your next of kin. I myself would not draw unless I felt I was about to use it. |
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First problem is that if you feel that you are bing followed then turn around and yell at that person(S) to stop. If he/they don't stop(like a reasonable person would) then you have justifacation to draw your firearm and what not. But if you feel immediately thereatened and there is no time to deter then pulling your gun is not completely unreasonable. Okay, so if you yell to stop, they continue, you draw, they run...Do you call LE and wait there for their arrival, go somewhere safer then call LE, or continue on with your night without contacting LE? |
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First problem is that if you feel that you are bing followed then turn around and yell at that person(S) to stop. If he/they don't stop(like a reasonable person would) then you have justifacation to draw your firearm and what not. But if you feel immediately thereatened and there is no time to deter then pulling your gun is not completely unreasonable. Okay, so if you yell to stop, they continue, you draw, they run...Do you call LE and wait there for their arrival, go somewhere safer then call LE, or continue on with your night without contacting LE? Retreat and call LE and report it. |
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First problem is that if you feel that you are bing followed then turn around and yell at that person(S) to stop. If he/they don't stop(like a reasonable person would) then you have justifacation to draw your firearm and what not. But if you feel immediately thereatened and there is no time to deter then pulling your gun is not completely unreasonable. Okay, so if you yell to stop, they continue, you draw, they run...Do you call LE and wait there for their arrival, go somewhere safer then call LE, or continue on with your night without contacting LE? Retreat and call LE and report it. Not inviting the man isn't always the best plan. Start a paper trail. |
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By definition I believe you would be brandishing the weapon, which is illegal, but my understanding is that if you are justified the police will be ok with it. Same as actually shooting someone, you are committing all sorts of crimes by pulling your gun, discharging in public and wounding/killing someone, but if they find it was in self-defense you will be cleared.
If I were in a highly public place I would certainly contact the police immediately. If it was just me and him/them, well I would never show my gun unless they acted in a threatening way after I warned them off thus demonstrating malicious intent, I would just reholster and go about my day. People prepared to rob someone only to get scared off by a properly defended person won't call the cops to report someone brandishing a weapon. Just my $0.02, and as a disclaimer, EVERY situation is different and while I advocate planning and thinking ahead, if you ever have to draw your weapon I can almost promise it won't go the way you imagined. Just stay calm and don't let the adrenaline make the decisions for you after the fact. An excellent post on mentality and action if you haven't already read this. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html |
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By definition I believe you would be brandishing the weapon, which is illegal, but my understanding is that if you are justified the police will be ok with it. Same as actually shooting someone, you are committing all sorts of crimes by pulling your gun, discharging in public and wounding/killing someone, but if they find it was in self-defense you will be cleared. If I were in a highly public place I would certainly contact the police immediately. If it was just me and him/them, well I would never show my gun unless they acted in a threatening way after I warned them off thus demonstrating malicious intent, I would just reholster and go about my day. People prepared to rob someone only to get scared off by a properly defended person won't call the cops to report someone brandishing a weapon. Just my $0.02, and as a disclaimer, EVERY situation is different and while I advocate planning and thinking ahead, if you ever have to draw your weapon I can almost promise it won't go the way you imagined. Just stay calm and don't let the adrenaline make the decisions for you after the fact. An excellent post on mentality and action if you haven't already read this. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html This NEEDS to be stickied. It has some of the best info in it that I have seen. |
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Hey Everyone, I was just reading through the most recent publication of government code issued by Texas DPS in regards to concealed carry, looking for an answer to this. Hypothetically speaking, are you in the wrong at any point (assuming you are carrying legally) by drawing your firearm if you feel threatened by another individual? Just for clarification sake, let me provide a scenario: You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? As a side question, say that you do indeed draw your firearm as described above and the individual turns around and runs off. At this point do you re-holster and continue on with your day or is there a need to contact law enforcement? Thanks Why would you be in the wrong? It's at NIGHT and you FEEL threatened. Not illegal to draw. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Hey Everyone, I was just reading through the most recent publication of government code issued by Texas DPS in regards to concealed carry, looking for an answer to this. Hypothetically speaking, are you in the wrong at any point (assuming you are carrying legally) by drawing your firearm if you feel threatened by another individual? Just for clarification sake, let me provide a scenario: You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? As a side question, say that you do indeed draw your firearm as described above and the individual turns around and runs off. At this point do you re-holster and continue on with your day or is there a need to contact law enforcement? Thanks Why would you be in the wrong? It's at NIGHT and you FEEL threatened. Not illegal to draw. NIGHT does not matter and how you FEEL does not matter either. |
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You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? There is a good chance you could be charged with Disorderly Person. In your scenario, what if the person is not following you and is a LEO or CHL? Next step is someone is notifying your next of kin. I myself would not draw unless I felt I was about to use it. I would +1 this. I often walk faster than most. I have a tendency to quickly walk up behind people and then pass them, not in a creepy kind of way, but just based on my walking speed. If I were walking down an alley, street, sidewalk, parking lot, etc. at my normal pace and I was catching up with someone (by themself) walking slowly I would be cautious of them. If they were to yank a gun out to try and "defend" .. I might interpret it as an act of violence (instead of perceived defense) and would be met with reasonable force. The end result is a person dying due to improper identification. Now if, as stated above, you were to yell out "Back up" or some sort of indicator that you "wanted your space", I would give it to you. Assumptions without proper validation can get you in a lot of trouble. Summary: I would never draw a firearm without giving the other individual the chance to change direction or pace (especially if their initial intent is vague). Drawing that firearm on another concealed carrier will result in shots fired and someone (or both) dying. Each situation has its own appropriate response. Now if I were a gangbanger with my pants sagging down to my ankles asking for a cigarette, the response might be different. You know when your life is being threatened, use that instinct. |
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You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? There is a good chance you could be charged with Disorderly Person. In your scenario, what if the person is not following you and is a LEO or CHL? Next step is someone is notifying your next of kin. I myself would not draw unless I felt I was about to use it. I would +1 this. I often walk faster than most. I have a tendency to quickly walk up behind people and then pass them, not in a creepy kind of way, but just based on my walking speed. If I were walking down an alley, street, sidewalk, parking lot, etc. at my normal pace and I was catching up with someone (by themself) walking slowly I would be cautious of them. If they were to yank a gun out to try and "defend" .. I might interpret it as an act of violence (instead of perceived defense) and would be met with reasonable force. The end result is a person dying due to improper identification. Now if, as stated above, you were to yell out "Back up" or some sort of indicator that you "wanted your space", I would give it to you. Assumptions without proper validation can get you in a lot of trouble. Summary: I would never draw a firearm without giving the other individual the chance to change direction or pace (especially if their initial intent is vague). Drawing that firearm on another concealed carrier will result in shots fired and someone (or both) dying. Each situation has its own appropriate response. Now if I were a gangbanger with my pants sagging down to my ankles asking for a cigarette, the response might be different. You know when your life is being threatened, use that instinct. I agree with all of the above..My scenario was a rather poor representation of what was actually going on in my mind at the time...I intended the scenario to be more clear in that you have reason to believe that the individual DOES have malicious intent. Obviously I would never draw my firearm on someone just because they were walking up to me. |
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I agree with all of the above..My scenario was a rather poor representation of what was actually going on in my mind at the time...I intended the scenario to be more clear in that you have reason to believe that the individual DOES have malicious intent. Obviously I would never draw my firearm on someone just because they were walking up to me. Oh. I can see what you're getting at. I have actually had a few situations where I wasn't sure of the intentions of a few individuals around me. None of them ever ended the way I was originally thinking they might. My first rule of walking anywhere, is that you don't set yourself up with only 2 exits (i.e. the entrance and exit), always survey a side path if at all possible. I have had a few situations where I have entered restaurants / businesses through their backdoors and exited the front in order to avoid confrontation with a shady character (and vice versa). I have even walked into bars (carrying) to slip through the crowd. While I am not opposed to drawing and firing if necessary, in those situations I did not see a firearm nor were they ever close enough to be an immediate threat.. only the instinctual mode of evasion. I do have a rule about ending someone's life (and it has kept me from pulling the trigger a couple of times): In public - If you can evade, try that first. If not an option, fight for your life. In private (home, car, fiance's home) - Shoot first, you should never feel your life threatened by someone in your "bubble" if they have no right to be there. Fearing your wife is something different... 
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I had an instance the other day in my secure entry apartment complex. Guy yelled across the parking lot asking me for the time, which I ignored. He kept asking me, and I foolishly answered. Then he continued saying he had hearing problems, and was walking towards me quickly. At about 20 feet I could smell the alcohol on him, and I grabbed my coat (so I could throw it out of the way if I needed to draw.) I told him to not get any closer to me, and asked if he lived here. He said yes, but I had my doubts, so I asked him what apartment he lives in. He began to get pissed off, asking me where I lived and blah blah blah. I pulled my coat to the side, placed my hand on my sidearm, and told him get away from me. He tells me "man fuck you" but turns around and walks away. Said "Have a nice day." and let my coat back over my gun, went inside, and that was that.
There's too many details to answer your question with what you provided. Pick up on the non-verbal clues. Everyone has that split second realization that something is not quite right, you just have to learn to listen to it. |
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By definition I believe you would be brandishing the weapon, which is illegal, but my understanding is that if you are justified the police will be ok with it. Same as actually shooting someone, you are committing all sorts of crimes by pulling your gun, discharging in public and wounding/killing someone, but if they find it was in self-defense you will be cleared. If I were in a highly public place I would certainly contact the police immediately. If it was just me and him/them, well I would never show my gun unless they acted in a threatening way after I warned them off thus demonstrating malicious intent, I would just reholster and go about my day. People prepared to rob someone only to get scared off by a properly defended person won't call the cops to report someone brandishing a weapon. Just my $0.02, and as a disclaimer, EVERY situation is different and while I advocate planning and thinking ahead, if you ever have to draw your weapon I can almost promise it won't go the way you imagined. Just stay calm and don't let the adrenaline make the decisions for you after the fact. An excellent post on mentality and action if you haven't already read this. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html This NEEDS to be stickied. It has some of the best info in it that I have seen. +1 Very good read. I came here to post a new thread for it. |
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You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? There is a good chance you could be charged with Disorderly Person.  No such thing.
In your scenario, what if the person is not following you and is a LEO or CHL? Next step is someone is notifying your next of kin. Doesn't matter, a threat is a threat no matter who they are. I myself would not draw unless I felt I was about to use it. Action > reaction
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Go to the NRA website and get the book "Self Defense Laws of all 50 States". Someone walking behind you is not reason to use deadly force, so I wouldn't draw a gun. In Florida you can use deadly force to stop a forcible felony. Even someone punching you won't qualify unless you can claim fear of "great bodily harm". If you do he'll go calling the cops and it is your word against his. You'll probably at least get cited for brandishing
Get the book from the NRA. In Florida there is also a really good book about friearm laws (I think it is called Florida Firearms Laws) which is really excellent.. In it, he says a lot of peole get into trouble and recommends against even touching your gun (he says in some circumstances it may be reasonable to show it, but if you touch it you run the risk of the other person claiming you threatend him or brandished it etc.). Florida Firearms Law: Excellent book! Self_defense Laws of all 50 States: Also excelent! I'd got some books like the above. Don't listen to internet yahoos (myself included) when you can get advice from attorneys who specialize in stuff like this. I think they should be mandatory reading for anyone with a concealed permit
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Go to the NRA website and get the book "Self Defense Laws of all 50 States". Someone walking behind you is not reason to use deadly force, so I wouldn't draw a gun. In Florida you can use deadly force to stop a forcible felony. Even someone punching you won't qualify unless you can claim fear of "great bodily harm". If you do he'll go calling the cops and it is your word against his. You'll probably at least get cited for brandishing Get the book from the NRA. In Florida there is also a really good book about friearm laws (I think it is called Florida Firearms Laws) which is really excellent.. In it, he says a lot of peole get into trouble and recommends against even touching your gun (he says in some circumstances it may be reasonable to show it, but if you touch it you run the risk of the other person claiming you threatend him or brandished it etc.). Florida Firearms Law: Excellent book! Self_defense Laws of all 50 States: Also excelent! I'd got some books like the above. Don't listen to internet yahoos (myself included) when you can get advice from attorneys who specialize in stuff like this. I think they should be mandatory reading for anyone with a concealed permit Drawing or showing your weapon only makes a difference if there are witnesses. If not, its still your word against his... |
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Hey Everyone, I was just reading through the most recent publication of government code issued by Texas DPS in regards to concealed carry, looking for an answer to this. Hypothetically speaking, are you in the wrong at any point (assuming you are carrying legally) by drawing your firearm if you feel threatened by another individual? Just for clarification sake, let me provide a scenario: You are walking down the street at night and notice that you seem be getting followed. As you continue on and before you know it, the assailant has nearly caught up with you. You place your hand on your weapon, turn and then what? What is the next step? Would it be illegal at that point to draw your sidearm and firmly tell the individual to back off? As a side question, say that you do indeed draw your firearm as described above and the individual turns around and runs off. At this point do you re-holster and continue on with your day or is there a need to contact law enforcement? Thanks IF someone I didn't know approached me at speed and kept coming when I turned to face him, I would put my offhand up in the universal sign of stop and articulate loudly not to come any closer to me. I would check his hands out as 'hands kill" If he continued coming I would draw my weapon and conceal it behind my thigh. Then he would need to make the decision is the next step worth what may happen next. If I shot him and it turned out I was wrong and it was a cop or a deaf guy. I have a plan in place to get out of the US and into a non-extradition country is less than 12 hours. |
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Quoted: Go to the NRA website and get the book "Self Defense Laws of all 50 States". Someone walking behind you is not reason to use deadly force, so I wouldn't draw a gun. In Florida you can use deadly force to stop a forcible felony. Even someone punching you won't qualify unless you can claim fear of "great bodily harm". If you do he'll go calling the cops and it is your word against his. You'll probably at least get cited for brandishing Get the book from the NRA. In Florida there is also a really good book about friearm laws (I think it is called Florida Firearms Laws) which is really excellent.. In it, he says a lot of peole get into trouble and recommends against even touching your gun (he says in some circumstances it may be reasonable to show it, but if you touch it you run the risk of the other person claiming you threatend him or brandished it etc.). Florida Firearms Law: Excellent book! Self_defense Laws of all 50 States: Also excelent! I'd got some books like the above. Don't listen to internet yahoos (myself included) when you can get advice from attorneys who specialize in stuff like this. I think they should be mandatory reading for anyone with a concealed permit So claim fear of great bodily harm. "I thought he was going to punch my head off." Easy. Do we need to start this discussion in every self-defense thread? A punch is sufficient for deadly force. Hundreds, if not thousands of people have been killed with a single punch. Several of them in my state alone in the last few years. What if the guy has a roll of quarters, brass knuckles, armored knuckled gloves or some other fist-injury enhancing weapon? I am still supposed to feel bones break before I defend myself? One punch by a stranger to even the shoulder or whatever is reason to shoot if I believe it's part of a bigger attack. The difference of that and a solid blow to the face that kills is a fraction of a second. The way apes (which includes humans) act, the punching is often psyching oneself up for more severe violence. The initial lead up to that violence may be the only change the victim will have to put an end to the attack. There may be a few people meaty and bony enough to withstand lots of hits to the head and face, for normal people it's going to harm them. Stating otherwise, in my opinion, is recklessly advising people not to respond when deadly force is being deployed against them. Feel free to act how you want, but "a punch is not deadly force" is a false statement. A punch certainly CAN be deadly force. Treat it that way. Remember, don't pick a fight with an old man, he's too old and frail to fight, he'll just kill you. |
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Go to the NRA website and get the book "Self Defense Laws of all 50 States". Someone walking behind you is not reason to use deadly force, so I wouldn't draw a gun. In Florida you can use deadly force to stop a forcible felony. Even someone punching you won't qualify unless you can claim fear of "great bodily harm". If you do he'll go calling the cops and it is your word against his. You'll probably at least get cited for brandishing Get the book from the NRA. In Florida there is also a really good book about friearm laws (I think it is called Florida Firearms Laws) which is really excellent.. In it, he says a lot of peole get into trouble and recommends against even touching your gun (he says in some circumstances it may be reasonable to show it, but if you touch it you run the risk of the other person claiming you threatend him or brandished it etc.). Florida Firearms Law: Excellent book! Self_defense Laws of all 50 States: Also excelent! I'd got some books like the above. Don't listen to internet yahoos (myself included) when you can get advice from attorneys who specialize in stuff like this. I think they should be mandatory reading for anyone with a concealed permit So claim fear of great bodily harm. "I thought he was going to punch my head off." Easy. Do we need to start this discussion in every self-defense thread? A punch is sufficient for deadly force. Hundreds, if not thousands of people have been killed with a single punch. Several of them in my state alone in the last few years. What if the guy has a roll of quarters, brass knuckles, armored knuckled gloves or some other fist-injury enhancing weapon? I am still supposed to feel bones break before I defend myself? One punch by a stranger to even the shoulder or whatever is reason to shoot if I believe it's part of a bigger attack. The difference of that and a solid blow to the face that kills is a fraction of a second. The way apes (which includes humans) act, the punching is often psyching oneself up for more severe violence. The initial lead up to that violence may be the only change the victim will have to put an end to the attack. There may be a few people meaty and bony enough to withstand lots of hits to the head and face, for normal people it's going to harm them. Stating otherwise, in my opinion, is recklessly advising people not to respond when deadly force is being deployed against them. Feel free to act how you want, but "a punch is not deadly force" is a false statement. A punch certainly CAN be deadly force. Treat it that way. Remember, don't pick a fight with an old man, he's too old and frail to fight, he'll just kill you. I agree completely...Thank you all for the insight. This is slightly off topic, but do any of you carry any form of self defense insurance? What are the opinions on that? |
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Quoted: By definition I believe you would be brandishing the weapon, which is illegal, but my understanding is that if you are justified the police will be ok with it. Same as actually shooting someone, you are committing all sorts of crimes by pulling your gun, discharging in public and wounding/killing someone, but if they find it was in self-defense you will be cleared. If I were in a highly public place I would certainly contact the police immediately. If it was just me and him/them, well I would never show my gun unless they acted in a threatening way after I warned them off thus demonstrating malicious intent, I would just reholster and go about my day. People prepared to rob someone only to get scared off by a properly defended person won't call the cops to report someone brandishing a weapon. Just my $0.02, and as a disclaimer, EVERY situation is different and while I advocate planning and thinking ahead, if you ever have to draw your weapon I can almost promise it won't go the way you imagined. Just stay calm and don't let the adrenaline make the decisions for you after the fact. An excellent post on mentality and action if you haven't already read this. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html In addition to this and other good advice already posted, I think you'd be wise to go to your HTF and seek out some training. I know that training is required to obtain a CHL in Texas, but you still have questions, so why not seek out better/more training? You do have a CHL already, don't you? |
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I had an instance the other day in my secure entry apartment complex. Guy yelled across the parking lot asking me for the time, which I ignored. He kept asking me, and I foolishly answered. Then he continued saying he had hearing problems, and was walking towards me quickly. At about 20 feet I could smell the alcohol on him, and I grabbed my coat (so I could throw it out of the way if I needed to draw.) I told him to not get any closer to me, and asked if he lived here. He said yes, but I had my doubts, so I asked him what apartment he lives in. He began to get pissed off, asking me where I lived and blah blah blah. I pulled my coat to the side, placed my hand on my sidearm, and told him get away from me. He tells me "man fuck you" but turns around and walks away. Said "Have a nice day." and let my coat back over my gun, went inside, and that was that. There's too many details to answer your question with what you provided. Pick up on the non-verbal clues. Everyone has that split second realization that something is not quite right, you just have to learn to listen to it. I will +1 this by adding a book worth everyone's while, called "The Little Black Book of Violence." Situational awareness is everything in self defense. |
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You have the handbook? turn to chapter 9 Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: First problem is that if you feel that you are bing followed then turn around and yell at that person(S) to stop. If he/they don't stop(like a reasonable person would) then you have justifacation to draw your firearm and what not. But if you feel immediately thereatened and there is no time to deter then pulling your gun is not completely unreasonable. Okay, so if you yell to stop, they continue, you draw, they run...Do you call LE and wait there for their arrival, go somewhere safer then call LE, or continue on with your night without contacting LE? Retreat and call LE and report it. Not inviting the man isn't always the best plan. Start a paper trail. He who calls first is the victim. |
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I know this has been said MANY times, but I will go ahead and say it....
In my class the instructor recommended always carrying a high lumen flashlight when you are carrying your firearm. If you perceive someone as a threat (i.e. walking up behind you) turn around, shine the light in their eyes and firmly tell them to stop. That covers all the bases in terms of the person being def, or having poor vision. You have given both visible and audible instructions to stop. If they don't stop, then you draw your gun. You have the added benefit that with the light in their face, they probably won't even see you draw. It's pretty simple.... |
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You have the handbook? turn to chapter 9 Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I was getting ready to post this. Producing your weapon, if you are only creating the apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I call this the "draw down" law. Cops do it all of the time. They often point their guns at people who have yet to offer ANY resistence. Their justification is the same as yours. OP, I assume you have a CHL. Did you learn about the color coding of situational awareness? By being in condition yellow, you can often avoid a situation where you even need to draw. Remember your increasing levels of force? Awareness, verbal commands, etc. Remember that your justification for using deadly force will be based on your reasonable perception of many factors? If a person is closing on you and it sets of your spidey senses, let them know. Make strong eye contact. If they come closer TELL THEM TO MOVE AWAY. A person ignoring your stronly worded instructions to move away, who was approaching you in a manner you described, has added to your justification. No scenario is ever cut and dry. You hear a sound at night, look out and see someone breaking into your car. Regardless if you are justified in using deadly force at that time (another thread) drawing down on the person and ordering them to stop is reasonable and lawful. They will either comply, run away, or attack you. Your response is based on their next step. Make sense? |
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You have the handbook? turn to chapter 9 Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I was getting ready to post this. Producing your weapon, if you are only creating the apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I call this the "draw down" law. Cops do it all of the time. They often point their guns at people who have yet to offer ANY resistence. Their justification is the same as yours. OP, I assume you have a CHL. Did you learn about the color coding of situational awareness? By being in condition yellow, you can often avoid a situation where you even need to draw. Remember your increasing levels of force? Awareness, verbal commands, etc. Remember that your justification for using deadly force will be based on your reasonable perception of many factors? If a person is closing on you and it sets of your spidey senses, let them know. Make strong eye contact. If they come closer TELL THEM TO MOVE AWAY. A person ignoring your stronly worded instructions to move away, who was approaching you in a manner you described, has added to your justification. No scenario is ever cut and dry. You hear a sound at night, look out and see someone breaking into your car. Regardless if you are justified in using deadly force at that time (another thread) drawing down on the person and ordering them to stop is reasonable and lawful. They will either comply, run away, or attack you. Your response is based on their next step. Make sense? Everything except this part. I'm not 100% clear on this, can some one explain it in other terms? |
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I call this the "draw down" law. Cops do it all of the time. They often point their guns at people who have yet to offer ANY resistence. Their justification is the same as yours. Are you calling all CHL holders cops? So when I stumble upon someone who looks like a threat, I can draw down on them and tell them to move on? When highway patrol pulls you over, they usually approach the car with their hand on their sidearm.. can I approach a suspicious restaurant with my hand obviously gripping my "concealed" glock? Are you a lawyer? I wouldn't ever offer such agressive advice to someone else. Witnesses can make or break your story.. just hope you don't draw down before a threat becomes "obvious". |
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[sarcasm] Yes, exactly [/sarcasm] Quoted:
I call this the "draw down" law. Cops do it all of the time. They often point their guns at people who have yet to offer ANY resistence. Their justification is the same as yours. Are you calling all CHL holders cops? So when I stumble upon someone who looks like a threat, I can draw down on them and tell them to move on? That is not what I wrote.
When highway patrol pulls you over, they usually approach the car with their hand on their sidearm.. can I approach a suspicious restaurant with my hand obviously gripping my "concealed" glock? Really? Do you get that from what I wrote?
Are you a lawyer? I wouldn't ever offer such agressive advice to someone else. Witnesses can make or break your story.. just hope you don't draw down before a threat becomes "obvious".
Nope. Read, slowly, what I wrote. I am a CHL Instructor, DPS PSB classroom and firearms instructor, and a Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education Instructor.
If you disagree with me, be specific, reference the law and be nice. I will not respond to further subtle attacks from you. Let's start with my comments about awareness, levels of force and perceptions. Do you disagree with that, and if so in what manner? How about the car burglar scenario I gave? In Texas a person is not required to wait until deadly force is justified before producing their weapon. The weapon cannnot be displayed to simply threaten or scare another, and it's production must be reasonable. |
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You have the handbook? turn to chapter 9 Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I was getting ready to post this. Producing your weapon, if you are only creating the apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I call this the "draw down" law. Cops do it all of the time. They often point their guns at people who have yet to offer ANY resistence. Their justification is the same as yours. OP, I assume you have a CHL. Did you learn about the color coding of situational awareness? By being in condition yellow, you can often avoid a situation where you even need to draw. Remember your increasing levels of force? Awareness, verbal commands, etc. Remember that your justification for using deadly force will be based on your reasonable perception of many factors? If a person is closing on you and it sets of your spidey senses, let them know. Make strong eye contact. If they come closer TELL THEM TO MOVE AWAY. A person ignoring your stronly worded instructions to move away, who was approaching you in a manner you described, has added to your justification. No scenario is ever cut and dry. You hear a sound at night, look out and see someone breaking into your car. Regardless if you are justified in using deadly force at that time (another thread) drawing down on the person and ordering them to stop is reasonable and lawful. They will either comply, run away, or attack you. Your response is based on their next step. Make sense? Everything except this part. I'm not 100% clear on this, can some one explain it in other terms? I will try when I get back to the PC. Too hard to type a bunch on the tablet. |
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You have the handbook? turn to chapter 9 Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I was getting ready to post this. Producing your weapon, if you are only creating the apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. I call this the "draw down" law. Cops do it all of the time. They often point their guns at people who have yet to offer ANY resistence. Their justification is the same as yours. OP, I assume you have a CHL. Did you learn about the color coding of situational awareness? By being in condition yellow, you can often avoid a situation where you even need to draw. Remember your increasing levels of force? Awareness, verbal commands, etc. Remember that your justification for using deadly force will be based on your reasonable perception of many factors? If a person is closing on you and it sets of your spidey senses, let them know. Make strong eye contact. If they come closer TELL THEM TO MOVE AWAY. A person ignoring your stronly worded instructions to move away, who was approaching you in a manner you described, has added to your justification. No scenario is ever cut and dry. You hear a sound at night, look out and see someone breaking into your car. Regardless if you are justified in using deadly force at that time (another thread) drawing down on the person and ordering them to stop is reasonable and lawful. They will either comply, run away, or attack you. Your response is based on their next step. Make sense? Thank you very much for the highly useful and clear post. I understand exactly what you are saying..Not sure how this other gentleman received it any different. To answer your question, yes, I do have a CHL. It has been about a year since the class though, so I just wanted to get a quick check on my thought process. I'm constantly thinking of bad situations and how I might get out of them (I suppose that is a side effect of being a paramedic). Your car burglary scenario does create an additional question though, as I have thought about that pretty regularly. I was not under the impression that you could draw until there was a reasonable expectation of needing to actually pull the trigger, none of which could really be defended against if you are elevating the situation by confronting someone over a car stereo. In other words, hypothetically speaking..You draw, tell them to stop and leave. They don't, they attack, you shoot. Once in court, I envision getting the "You confronted him with a weapon over a car stereo?" treatment from the court. Is this flawed thinking? |