Posted: 5/19/2011 6:10:21 AM EDT
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I don't have any pictures but I'm sure most of us are familiar with something that happens to a round that's been cycled a handful of times. The round gets shoved back into the case a bit, and leaves the round looking short.
I do occasionally switch the rounds around in my magazines, but still sometimes the rounds get pushed in. This happens with my AR's as well. I've never really given this "problem" a second thought, and just fire the rounds. At the range the other day I overheard a couple guys talking about this and one of the two was adamantly against using the rounds. He said it can cause major problems due to increased pressure, and to dispose of the rounds. Now, I'm not doubting that it can cause increased pressure, but how big of a deal is it really? I've probably shot ...well at least a hundred rounds like that over the years with nary a problem. Is this more of a hypothetical problem than a real one? Also, do people really throw away rounds that cost darn near a dollar a piece because the projectile got forced a millimeter or two into the case? |
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I would weigh the cost of the round (even at a buck a round,) against the dollar value of the firearm I would be shooting it in (usually a lot more than a dollar,) and the value I place on things like my hands and face (I don't know about you, but I have very strong feelings of love for myself and the assorted parts and pieces thereof, and am hard pressed to assign a dollar value to said parts.)
And yes, bullets with setback can cause damage to firearms. Example: (Note, this is not my firearm or my picture, and I am trusting to the poster's veracity that this was caused by setback, but have no reason to suspect a falsehood.) 
Looks like a higher repair bill than the cost of the round to me. |
Yes it can be. Too much set back can cause to much pressure as evidenced by the picture above. You need to shoot your carry ammo every once in a while anyway. I cycle the chambered round to the bottom of the mag. I do this until all of them have been through once and then shoot the mag. My mags are 8+1 so this gets me 9 trips to the range before I go through my carry ammo. When I shoot the carry ammo I draw and fire. I saw a guy go to shoot his carry ammo one day and he broke the gun down after pulling it out of the holster, oiled it and shot. He said that he didn't want to damage the gun. 
I want to know that my gun is going to go bang exactly how I carry it. If you don't keep it oiled then you better make damn sure that it will run dry! |
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I have been watching 2 different cartridges in my carry guns for over a year. One is a 230 Winchester Ranger bonded 45 ACP and the other is 147 Winchester bonded 9mm. Every time I unload my 2 carry guns (M&P9c and Colt XSE LW commander) I measure the overall length of the cartridge with my calipers and compare that length against NIB cartridges. I also have scratched each bullet immediately above the end of the case. I make sure that the scratch is still visible each time I unload the gun. To date I have not seen any measurable movement in either bullet.
This could vary wildly with different ammo or different pistols so your mileage may vary. I know my LSWC reloads will show measurable set back in the 1911 after 3 or 4 chamberings. I suggest you test your equipment to determine if you have an issue or not. Bullet set back absolutely can cause excessive pressure and damage the firearm at a min. |
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Very interesting. My Gold Dots seem to be affected by this very easily.
Seems strange to me because very rarely do I strip one off the mag to chamber it. I generally drop one in the tube before closing the slide and inserting a full magazine. I'm looking at my ramp and tube right now and can't figure out what is contacting the bullet to cause the setback. |
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Very interesting. My Gold Dots seem to be affected by this very easily. Seems strange to me because very rarely do I strip one off the mag to chamber it. I generally drop one in the tube before closing the slide and inserting a full magazine. I'm looking at my ramp and tube right now and can't figure out what is contacting the bullet to cause the setback. Hmmmmm.......so many things to address. A) I carry either Gold Dots or Ranger Bonded, and I have noted that Gold Dots do seem more prone to this. I just stow everything that has been chambered two or three times in a box that gets shot up at the range. B) I am not sure how setback is occurring if you typically load as described, and would like to know if there is a large lot of GD ammo you purchased and are experiencing this with. C) Unless you are talking about a Beretta, please stop loading your weapon like that. It is designed to load from the magazine, and you can over-stress or damage your extractor by loading like you are. Just load the mag, chamber from the mag, extract the mag, load another round in the mag, then seat the mag if you want full capacity +1. Having your extractor break in the middle of needing it urgently is not going to do much to enhance an already seriously unpleasant experience. |
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Very interesting. My Gold Dots seem to be affected by this very easily. Seems strange to me because very rarely do I strip one off the mag to chamber it. I generally drop one in the tube before closing the slide and inserting a full magazine. I'm looking at my ramp and tube right now and can't figure out what is contacting the bullet to cause the setback. Hmmmmm.......so many things to address. A) I carry either Gold Dots or Ranger Bonded, and I have noted that Gold Dots do seem more prone to this. I just stow everything that has been chambered two or three times in a box that gets shot up at the range. Interesting.... B) I am not sure how setback is occurring if you typically load as described, and would like to know if there is a large lot of GD ammo you purchased and are experiencing this with. I wouldn't say it was a large lot. I've bought a few boxes here and there. I rarely have the cash to drop on hundreds of rounds except cheap range ammo. C) Unless you are talking about a Beretta, please stop loading your weapon like that. It is designed to load from the magazine, and you can over-stress or damage your extractor by loading like you are. Just load the mag, chamber from the mag, extract the mag, load another round in the mag, then seat the mag if you want full capacity +1. Having your extractor break in the middle of needing it urgently is not going to do much to enhance an already seriously unpleasant experience. I've heard this before, but I don't think it's a problem for anything but a 1911. The pistol I'm referring to in this case is an XDm. I don't think it's a problem. I do appreciate your input so please don't think I'm discounting your opinion. I just happen to not agree in this case. I'll be dropping a single round in the tube till I die. Except on a 1911. |
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I've just done a bit of reading and it seems that the majority of people agree that chambering a round the way I described is bad. I don't think it's bad enough to warrant not doing it, but we'll see I guess. I used to have a subcompact XD and I did that probably......thousands of times and put 10k+ rounds through it with no problems.
I believe it could have a negative effect, but I'm going to wait to see it for myself before I change my habit. That was an aside from the original topic but....oh well. |
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Very interesting. My Gold Dots seem to be affected by this very easily. Seems strange to me because very rarely do I strip one off the mag to chamber it. I generally drop one in the tube before closing the slide and inserting a full magazine. I'm looking at my ramp and tube right now and can't figure out what is contacting the bullet to cause the setback. Hmmmmm.......so many things to address. A) I carry either Gold Dots or Ranger Bonded, and I have noted that Gold Dots do seem more prone to this. I just stow everything that has been chambered two or three times in a box that gets shot up at the range. Interesting.... B) I am not sure how setback is occurring if you typically load as described, and would like to know if there is a large lot of GD ammo you purchased and are experiencing this with. I wouldn't say it was a large lot. I've bought a few boxes here and there. I rarely have the cash to drop on hundreds of rounds except cheap range ammo. C) Unless you are talking about a Beretta, please stop loading your weapon like that. It is designed to load from the magazine, and you can over-stress or damage your extractor by loading like you are. Just load the mag, chamber from the mag, extract the mag, load another round in the mag, then seat the mag if you want full capacity +1. Having your extractor break in the middle of needing it urgently is not going to do much to enhance an already seriously unpleasant experience. I've heard this before, but I don't think it's a problem for anything but a 1911. The pistol I'm referring to in this case is an XDm. I don't think it's a problem. I do appreciate your input so please don't think I'm discounting your opinion. I just happen to not agree in this case. I'll be dropping a single round in the tube till I die. Except on a 1911. Eh, as you will, and I used to do the same, but after I replaced one extractor on a Sig 220 that I damaged doing what you describe, I figured it was kind of a pointless risk. |
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Stop listening to the internet. Do your own test on your own ammo. See for yourself.
My tests? Not a problem at all. in 9mm, .40, & .45. FMJ or JHP. I chambered the same round in each 25 timer, no measured difference. Factory ammo. What that said I chamber a round 5 times & then goes to a range mag. Could it be a problem with reloaded ammo? Maybe? |
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I tend to agree with that approach. Provided the weapon is adequately secured or under your control when you are not wearing it, there is no benefit to unloading it at home. With kids around, mine goes in a small quick opening gun safe if I don't have it on me
I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger. In my opinion, the unload it every night thing is a holdover from safety training better suited to range and hunter safety classes. I'll unload mine when I am shooting preactice loads to switch from SD to training ammo, so over time you do still accumulate some cycles on a given round. With that said I have not encountered problems with set back with Golden Saber ammo in .380 Auto, 9mm Para or .45 Auto. I agree that peopel need to monitor there ammo in their weapons to ensure it is not an issue. –––– As indicated above, dropping a round in the barrel and then closing the slide is not a great idea in many pistols. It forces the extractor over the rim where in most designs the rim is intended to slide up under the extractor from below. Also, many people use the slide release to drop the slide on the round. It's out of fashion now for a couple of very good reasons: 1. It's not consistent with current immediate action drills to clear various jams. 2. It does not work on weapons without a slide release, and its easier to learn a single method that will work on everything. 3. Trigger pulls on a carry gun are (despite NY triggers and other efforts to keep non-gun peopel LEOs from shooting themselves or having ADs) often in the 4-5 pound range and in some weapons, like the 1911, the slide slamming forward can degrade the trigger pull. That is especially true given the popularity of installing (in my opinion usually unneccesary) extra heavy recoil springs. (If the spring is too weak, it's because it is worn out and needs to be replaced with a new one of the proper weight, not a heavier one.) 4. The potential for setback of SD rounds is another item to add to the list. Consequently, when I load an SD round I use the sling shot technique and only let the slide develop enough velocity to chamber the round - and it does not take much to accompolish that - which saves wear and tear on the hammer and sear as well as the round. |
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it's a nice thought but at some point it probably matters how many times per week you go to the range, and realistically how big an issue set back really is with your particular pistol and ammunition.
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I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger. This. And on range trips shoot the carry ammo round in the chamber before switching to range ammo. I suppose in the extreme we could adopt a samurai'esque approach and never remove a pistol without firing it. That would take care of the setback issue... |
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I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger.
Guess it depends on what & how you carry. I function check my carry gun every Sunday night. Also allows me to clear the trigger area & the front of the barrel of all the lint & dust that collect after a week of 10+ hours a day IWB carry. |
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it's a nice thought but at some point it probably matters how many times per week you go to the range, and realistically how big an issue set back really is with your particular pistol and ammunition.
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I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger. This. And on range trips shoot the carry ammo round in the chamber before switching to range ammo. I suppose in the extreme we could adopt a samurai'esque approach and never remove a pistol without firing it. That would take care of the setback issue... Or we could take the zen approach and simply imagine our target falling down dead and perhaps it would happen. 
In the real world, I shoot my carry gun at least once a month to confirm function, but have a copy of it for range use and trigger time. Why pound the hell out of your carry gun so long as you know it is reliable and have an acceptable amount of verified rounds through it. |
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bullet set back can be a serious problem- I know a number of police range officers and this setback thing seems to be most significant with the 40 S&W cartridge and may explain (partly ) the frequency of le guns in 40 gettting damaged.
especially in the 40 very small decreases in case capacity caused by bullet setback will DRAMATICALLY increase chamber pressure- sometimes into the 6 figure psi range. no pistol can survive that. I keep an eye on my carry ammo and when I see set back take out a bullet puller and pull the bullet and reseat to proper depth and put that round in the practice ammo pile |
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Quoted: I've heard this before, but I don't think it's a problem for anything but a 1911. The pistol I'm referring to in this case is an XDm. I don't think it's a problem. I do appreciate your input so please don't think I'm discounting your opinion. I just happen to not agree in this case. I'll be dropping a single round in the tube till I die. Except on a 1911.  |
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Quoted: I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger. I travel for my work and stay in hotels two and sometimes 3 nights a week. I frequently use the large mirrors in the rooms to practice drawing and dry firing my carry piece.. Since I do not carry more than one pistol at a time, it necessitates that I unload my pistol before practice. (The other guests always get uppity about 45 cal bullets wizzing through their hotel rooms). You would be surprised to see how effective using a large mirror is for draw and dry fire practice. You get to use a "live" target to shoot at without making somebody mess their britches. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger. I travel for my work and stay in hotels two and sometimes 3 nights a week. I frequently use the large mirrors in the rooms to practice drawing and dry firing my carry piece.. Since I do not carry more than one pistol at a time, it necessitates that I unload my pistol before practice. (The other guests always get uppity about 45 cal bullets wizzing through their hotel rooms). You would be surprised to see how effective using a large mirror is for draw and dry fire practice. You get to use a "live" target to shoot at without making somebody mess their britches. AND, the "other guy" has a gun, so you better get on target and fire quick! (I do this too, and I like it.) Anyone have a link to the thread from a while back where a LEO (member here) loaded and unloaded the same round from his duty gun for a year and it showed no setback? It was a while ago, and can't remember when. |
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I've heard this before, but I don't think it's a problem for anything but a 1911. The pistol I'm referring to in this case is an XDm. I don't think it's a problem. I do appreciate your input so please don't think I'm discounting your opinion. I just happen to not agree in this case. I'll be dropping a single round in the tube till I die. Except on a 1911. what am I missing? |
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I almost never unload my carry pistols unless it's by pressing the trigger. I travel for my work and stay in hotels two and sometimes 3 nights a week. I frequently use the large mirrors in the rooms to practice drawing and dry firing my carry piece.. Since I do not carry more than one pistol at a time, it necessitates that I unload my pistol before practice. (The other guests always get uppity about 45 cal bullets wizzing through their hotel rooms). You would be surprised to see how effective using a large mirror is for draw and dry fire practice. You get to use a "live" target to shoot at without making somebody mess their britches. Are you talkn' to me!? 
I should try that out at home in front of the full length... Probably have to cook my own dinner for a month then. |
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Very first ammo I had when I started to carry was winchester bonded pdx. I had brand new 1911 and I started to notice it happening after 4 -5 times a load a round. I thought it was because gun is new and needed some breaking in. at that time I practiced alot of drawing and dry fire. Was cleaning it alot because was shooting it atleast once a week. Alot of that ammo is set back, some of them are very short now and I was always afraid to use them. I actually threw away couple of rounds at the range because I didnt want to test them. Now I carry it with winchester ranger (was given to me as my wedding gift from a local sheriff) and I havent noticed anything wrong with it, but also i "play" with a gun lot less.
I always assumed that is round pushed in farther it'll need more preasure to push it out and common sence always protected, if you can put it that way, from trying those rounds. And yes.... $1 a round is big ammount of money. But my health, my gun and people around me are more valuable that those couple of rounds. |
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I got out a 1911 and a BHP. I got out Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, and WWB. I used the slide release and let the same round be slammed into the chamber over and over. Over 10 times in each case. Measured result with calipers every time. No set back in either gun with any round.
Doesn't mean it doesn't happen with your gun and your ammo. I didn't see it in these guns and I didn't rely on internet info to know what's going on. |
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Very first ammo I had when I started to carry was winchester bonded pdx. I had brand new 1911 and I started to notice it happening after 4 -5 times a load a round. I thought it was because gun is new and needed some breaking in. at that time I practiced alot of drawing and dry fire. Was cleaning it alot because was shooting it atleast once a week. Alot of that ammo is set back, some of them are very short now and I was always afraid to use them. I actually threw away couple of rounds at the range because I didnt want to test them. Now I carry it with winchester ranger (was given to me as my wedding gift from a local sheriff) and I havent noticed anything wrong with it, but also i "play" with a gun lot less. I always assumed that is round pushed in farther it'll need more preasure to push it out and common sence always protected, if you can put it that way, from trying those rounds. And yes.... $1 a round is big ammount of money. But my health, my gun and people around me are more valuable that those couple of rounds. Once you have verified a gun's reliability (that you are comfortable with) you don't need to shoot it weekly just to prove the point. Leave it loaded and test fire the chambered round occasionally when running a mag of FMJs through it. You can easily swap your "carry" mag for your "range" mag out right in the holster and just fire off your chambered carry round to test it. Do that once a month and you are more than GTG |
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Very first ammo I had when I started to carry was winchester bonded pdx. I had brand new 1911 and I started to notice it happening after 4 -5 times a load a round. I thought it was because gun is new and needed some breaking in. at that time I practiced alot of drawing and dry fire. Was cleaning it alot because was shooting it atleast once a week. Alot of that ammo is set back, some of them are very short now and I was always afraid to use them. I actually threw away couple of rounds at the range because I didnt want to test them. Now I carry it with winchester ranger (was given to me as my wedding gift from a local sheriff) and I havent noticed anything wrong with it, but also i "play" with a gun lot less. I always assumed that is round pushed in farther it'll need more preasure to push it out and common sence always protected, if you can put it that way, from trying those rounds. And yes.... $1 a round is big ammount of money. But my health, my gun and people around me are more valuable that those couple of rounds. Once you have verified a gun's reliability (that you are comfortable with) you don't need to shoot it weekly just to prove the point. Leave it loaded and test fire the chambered round occasionally when running a mag of FMJs through it. You can easily swap your "carry" mag for your "range" mag out right in the holster and just fire off your chambered carry round to test it. Do that once a month and you are more than GTG thanks :) |
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I was in doubt. Here's results with a Springfield EMP 9mm. I forget how many times I chamebered totally (about 20 or 30? I have a post in here from months ago with more detail)
Pretty sure it was Gold Dots (sorry, did it a while back) Pretty big setback, but also the hollowpoints got SMASHED in. Not sure how much of my length difference was setback v. the nose getting smashed, but I sure as hell threw out these rounds. (The one on the right is a new, never chambered round) 
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| it seems that this is more of a problem in pistol calibers than rifle calibers. both in how often it happens and how much of a problem it can be. it seems that in a pistol round the bullet setting back can cause a spike in pressure resulting in the gun possibly blowing up. this can also happen in a rifle but seems to e less of a problem since there is more airspace in the round so the bullet setting back doesnt affect it as much. that all being said i wouldnt risk it. just throw that round away. or save it and pull the bullet and re-seat it. |