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Posted: 9/5/2009 6:16:56 PM EDT
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This may seem like a stupid question but i've been looking at getting an AK variant, and was looking at the arsenal saiga conversions. First off what exactly is the difference between the SGL20 and the SGL21, i've looked and can't seem to figure it out. Second does the treading on the barrels allow the use of the slant cut compensator and are the handguards and stocks standard size, i'm looking to make a retro looking ak with wood stocks and the slant comp. Any help would be appreciated.
edit: i also have a question reguarding stock length, when they refer to warsaw pact style what does that mean? I've handled both romanian and yugo aks what would the warsaw pact stock compare to as opposed to the nato stock? Thanks |
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The difference between the SGL20 and 21 is the accessory lug which is basically the second lug that the cleaning rod passes through.
The slant compensator is the standard 14 LH thread for AK's, the SGL series has the 24mm front sight base which means the slant comp won't fit. Handguards and stocks can be swapped out for most any stamped receiver pattern wood furniture, but mind your parts count for 922r if you change furniture. The SGL should have 6 or 7 US parts depending on if the brake is US made or not. The trigger group is 3, PG, stock and HG's are 3 more. If you change the furniture to non US you lose 3 parts and end up at most with only 4 US parts (trigger group and brake), so you would either need to keep some US furniture or use US floorplates and followers in your mags (2 parts), or use all US made mags (3 parts) to stay within compliance. I recently put Soviet plum on my SGL31 and a base of 4 US parts, so I swapped followers and floorplates in my mags to get me to my required 6 parts. WARSAW length is the standard Soviet length and is 1" shorter than NATO length (or more accurately, NATO length was designed to be 1" longer than WARSAW). I prefer the WARSAW over NATO actually, once I got accustomed to it it became very comfortable and I prefer the shorter length of pull. Inspect the rifle first if you can, even though these are made in Russia they can and do have cosmetic issues with the finish, occasional mismatched parts and sometimes canted front sights, some of those problems are Russian and some are Arsenal's. My understanding is that they come into the US with sporter style front sight blocks and then are converted to the 24mm FSB by Arsenal, because of that the FSB seems to be more likely to be canted because of Arsenal rather than Izmash. Arsenal went through a rough period in 2007-2008 where their QC standards dropped considerably and they sent out a fair number of rifles with defects that should have been caught before they went out the door. Canted FSB's were probably the most common, but flaking finishes, rust under the brake, mismatched parts and crappy triggers were also relatively common. They would warranty their work but many people complained of sh*tty customer service and it really put a black eye on their formerly stellar reputation. The SLR107 series seemed to have it the worst from my general view over those particular years, but the SGL's have been cropping up with the same problems although at what seems to be a much lower rate. I would feel completely confident about getting an SGL (and did infact, my SGL31 is going to the range tomorrow) but as I mentioned try and inspect it first. It could save some warranty hassle by catching possible trouble up front. As a matter of fact my SGL had a severely canted FSB out of the box and the finish is flaking in two places. I've already fixed the FSB with a few good mallet whacks (it's still canted but it's barely noticable) and since I intend to get it refinished anyway I'm not worried about the finish. Other than the two little spots the finish is actually the nicest I've seen on any Saiga or Arsenal so far...not sure what's different about this rifle than the others but it's noticably better IMO. Speaking of finishes, the Arsenals and SGL's are not known for having a tough finish...it's more like paint. Just use Ballistol or CLP on the exterior and stay away from harsher stuff like Hopps and it should be fine. Using something stronger can give you the unpleasant surprise of watching it smear off during cleaning, but sticking with CLP will do you just fine. Z |
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Quoted: and that sums it up! The difference between the SGL20 and 21 is the accessory lug which is basically the second lug that the cleaning rod passes through. The slant compensator is the standard 14 LH thread for AK's, the SGL series has the 24mm front sight base which means the slant comp won't fit. Handguards and stocks can be swapped out for most any stamped receiver pattern wood furniture, but mind your parts count for 922r if you change furniture. The SGL should have 6 or 7 US parts depending on if the brake is US made or not. The trigger group is 3, PG, stock and HG's are 3 more. If you change the furniture to non US you lose 3 parts and end up at most with only 4 US parts (trigger group and brake), so you would either need to keep some US furniture or use US floorplates and followers in your mags (2 parts), or use all US made mags (3 parts) to stay within compliance. I recently put Soviet plum on my SGL31 and a base of 4 US parts, so I swapped followers and floorplates in my mags to get me to my required 6 parts. WARSAW length is the standard Soviet length and is 1" shorter than NATO length (or more accurately, NATO length was designed to be 1" longer than WARSAW). I prefer the WARSAW over NATO actually, once I got accustomed to it it became very comfortable and I prefer the shorter length of pull. Inspect the rifle first if you can, even though these are made in Russia they can and do have cosmetic issues with the finish, occasional mismatched parts and sometimes canted front sights, some of those problems are Russian and some are Arsenal's. My understanding is that they come into the US with sporter style front sight blocks and then are converted to the 24mm FSB by Arsenal, because of that the FSB seems to be more likely to be canted because of Arsenal rather than Izmash. Arsenal went through a rough period in 2007-2008 where their QC standards dropped considerably and they sent out a fair number of rifles with defects that should have been caught before they went out the door. Canted FSB's were probably the most common, but flaking finishes, rust under the brake, mismatched parts and crappy triggers were also relatively common. They would warranty their work but many people complained of sh*tty customer service and it really put a black eye on their formerly stellar reputation. The SLR107 series seemed to have it the worst from my general view over those particular years, but the SGL's have been cropping up with the same problems although at what seems to be a much lower rate. I would feel completely confident about getting an SGL (and did infact, my SGL31 is going to the range tomorrow) but as I mentioned try and inspect it first. It could save some warranty hassle by catching possible trouble up front. As a matter of fact my SGL had a severely canted FSB out of the box and the finish is flaking in two places. I've already fixed the FSB with a few good mallet whacks (it's still canted but it's barely noticable) and since I intend to get it refinished anyway I'm not worried about the finish. Other than the two little spots the finish is actually the nicest I've seen on any Saiga or Arsenal so far...not sure what's different about this rifle than the others but it's noticably better IMO. Speaking of finishes, the Arsenals and SGL's are not known for having a tough finish...it's more like paint. Just use Ballistol or CLP on the exterior and stay away from harsher stuff like Hopps and it should be fine. Using something stronger can give you the unpleasant surprise of watching it smear off during cleaning, but sticking with CLP will do you just fine. Z  |
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Triangle and solid polymer side folders require modification to the receiver and a new folding style trunnion to be installed, plus a slot for the front latch needs to be cut up front as well. A competent gunsmith familiar with side folders is your best bet because even though it's not impossible to do yourself it requires a lot of precision work and patience to do right. It's not easy especially for your first time at it.
You could go with a Polish/Romanian/East German style wire folder because those fit the standard fixed stock rear trunnion and require no modifications to the rifle to work. Sometimes they need to be fitted to a particular rifle but overall it's a pretty straight forward drop in mod. The advantage to the wire folder is it folds to the right so you can fire the rifle with the stock folded and an optic mounted on the side rail, or at least fold it up for storage while the optic is mounted. Triangle folders fold to the left and won't close with an optic mounted on the side rail. The disadvantage is the cheekweld is not so great but some people like them alot. There is a non folding polymer triangle replica that mounts to the fixed stock trunnion, you could get somewhat of the same look as a triangle folder without all the extra work that needs to be done but to me they just won't do. The one I had kept staring at me with this 'I'm not really a folder and you really want a folder instead of me' look that eventually made me take it off my S12 (and get it converted to a folder). They do work fine though, same length of pull and overall shooting experience as a real triangle stock. If you decide to get your SGL converted to a side folder there are basically 2 types of rear trunnion parts involved, but they both use the same front latch mechanism. The Russians use 5.5mm hinge pins on their AKS-74 and AK100 series rifles and use a 4.5mm hinge pin on their AKSU rifles. The Bulgarians use 4.5mm pins on both kinds of rifles. In the US the most common trunnion by far is the 4.5mm style but we seem to be in a mild drought for those parts and prices have gone way up. I wouldn't expect to get the triangle folding stock and trunnion parts for less than $175 or so right now, if you can find them. That may change soon because I heard there are 50,000 odd Bulgarian kits that customs cleared for importation recently and I would bet a fair number will be AKS-74 side folders. (can't remember where I heard that but I think it was here on arfcom). 5.5mm trunnion sets are very very rare and typically run $250+ if you do happen to see one. The 5.5mm would be correct for an SGL20 but rarity and cost may not make it worth the extra effort, though it would definately help the resale value to a collector down the road who understood what the significance of the 5.5mm set was. For practical purposes there is nothing wrong with using the more common 4.5mm set because the resale value will still be alot higher than a fixed stock SGL20 anyway. Also there is no difference between the 4.5 and 5.5mm sets other than the diameter of the hinge pin itself, plus the corresponding hole through the trunnion and stock. Either diameter trunnion can easily swap between a solid polymer folder or a triangle folder just by opening the receiver cover and tapping the pin out. You don't have to strip the rifle at all. And lastly there are always US made after market folding stocks like Ace or Tapco, but for a nice authentic Russian like the SGL20 I don't recommend them. That's just the purist in me, I think they are more appropriate on other kinds of AK's
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