AK Sponsor
Posted: 9/1/2012 10:35:40 PM EDT
|
There's a local sale for a Poly Tech 7.62 SP. What's it really worth?
––- The description given: Polytech AKS-762 SP, ( stamped receiver ) . Extremely high quality AK with threaded barrel, slant break, beautiful blueing, chrome lined barrel ect. The condition is excellent and very well taken care of, fired very little. It comes with the original Chinese marked sling, cleaning rod, cleaning kit in the stock and 2 mags. These are getting very hard to find, very clean and solid AK. This is NOT a MAK 90. It is a circle 386 factory CW serial numbered Polytech AKS . This is not a parts gun it is a Kengs imported all numbers matching Chinese built rifle. Basically it's a pre ban gun that was already in the U.S. before the ban. They're actually pretty rare. Offered deal is my rifle as pictured with sling, 4 mags, extra bolt carrier group, extra complete bolt, extra pistol grip ( black) , extra upper &lower handguards (black), and 200 rounds premium Silver Bear ammunition, and custom cut case in the pictures. ––––> ––> It was pointed out to me that there's something in these photos that makes this an "evil" gun, so I've pulled them. Thanks. |
|
I have one just like it, 'cept mine has a tack-welded muzzle-nut, checkered PG, and overall the wood isn't as dark and shiny. I can't recall what numbers match - pretty much the major parts - bolt, carrier (IIRC).
It is my understanding that mine/these should have had a bayo - the famous underfolding bayo - which costs probably half as much as the gun if you can find one. Whatever, who needs a bayo? I think I unfolded my SKS bayo like 3 times in 20years or so. Your gonna like this if you get it, my 2nd favorite to my Yugo M70AB2. Edit; value - don't know, CHICOM guns are now collectible, so when you only have one, probably should keep it. Which is the downside - I tend to never shoot mine; the Yugo and Polski get more action. |
|
That gun has had the underfolding bayonet cut off.
See the front sight base. Just behind the front sight base is another base on the barrel. That used to have an underfolding bayonet. The bottom of the front sight base also had the knob that the bayonet clips into cut off. Lokk at the chinese ak pic thread to see. Compare stamped polytechs without an under folding bayonet to ones with an underfolding bayonet. Don't look at the few underfolding bayonet pics where the bayonet housing is held on by screws, those are after market attachments. Not worth any collector value because of that. Does the forearm have a cut under it for the bayonet? If not then somebody also replaced the stock. These were made for the civilian market guns. Any number on it should have matching original stamped numbers, no etches. Bolt, bolt carrier, trunion, and I can't remember if the cover has a number or not. Stock will not, it is not a .mil gun. I don't have time to dig mine out. |
|
The front sight base also looks discolored and buggered up. Looks like maybe someone welded the muzzle nut on and theN cut it off and replaced it with a slant break. The original rifle had a muzzle nut that was not welded on. It should come off.
That looks like someone took a preban rifle and banned it. |
|
The owners response back to this is:
"This gun is a Kengs import that was caught up in customs during the ban. Kengs cut off the bayonets and added choate furniture. It's an SP stamped gun because of that... The parts that are numbered are the receiver, the bolt carrier group, and the bolt. It came from Kengs with black choate furniture and it was swapped for true Chinese hardwood furniture ( I am including the original furniture from Kengs Imports) also in order for Kengs to sell in the U.S. they spot welded a nut onto the threaded barrel . I had it removed and a correct slant muzzle break was installed. The barrel is threaded so you can use whatever break or flash hider works best for you, I had the slant break installed so it would be completely back to its factory configuration. It even has its original cleaning rod, Chinese marked sling, and cleaning kit in the stock!" It sounds to me like this one isn't collectible right? So it's worth $800? He keeps telling me the rifle is worth $1400 which I thought is high. |
|
It's a ban-era gun. Not to say it's not a nice Chinese AK but, it's not the pre-ban spiker he claims. It was modified and sold as a ban gun. Not worth what a clean TRP is IMHO.
Edit- I'd prob price it sligthly higher than a de-banned mak due to having the markings and some of the parts(not the priciest ones however) to do a spiker conversion. |
|
Quoted:
And last question - is this a 922 compliant firearm, and if it's not should that be a concern? (I just found a website about that, which I wasn't aware of before... if it no longer matters, please let me know) There's 9-billion posts on the 'net about 922. From what I gather from reading most of them, 922 applies to licensed firearms mfgs and firearms importers; you did neither. In 1990 it was BEYOND common to see imported EBRs with all the ban-parts included in the box for just that reason; 922 doesn't apply to private-party possession. Don't sweat it. If worried, ignore it and don't buy it, someone else will as CHICOM AKs are non-importable in any config. Values; yowza, if I could sell my PolyTech AKS762 SP for $1400.00 - it'd be gone FASSSSSSSSSST, like it, but not that much. For value, suggest you look at what Norinco MAK90's have sold for recently, that is; those with proper CHICOM furniture (getting harder to find and expensive) installed, and then factor in the fact that the PolyTech you are looking at can still accept a cleaning rod as most MAK90s can't, and has a threaded muzzle - which most MAK90s don't have due to turned-down barrel. And offer accordingly, or ignore it for someone else to buy. Someone will buy it as anything CHICOM is non-importable. |
|
Look how much this one just sold for. I was shocked!! Makes me tempted to sell mine.
Gunbroker Polytech SP |
|
Quoted:
Look how much this one just sold for. I was shocked!! Makes me tempted to sell mine. Gunbroker Polytech SP DAMNEY! That's pretty good money! |
|
Negative! If you look at the pics that is definetly a stamped reciever.
I have the exact rifle. It has the slot cut in the front handguard for the folding bayo. I purchased mine New In Box in December 1999 during the Y2K panic for $450. $1,100 is pretty damn tempting. I could probably get a decent 56-S for $1,100. Sorry, not trying to hijack your thread op. Stone |
|
Quoted:
Negative! If you look at the pics that is definetly a stamped reciever. I have the exact rifle. It has the slot cut in the front handguard for the folding bayo. I purchased mine New In Box in December 1999 during the Y2K panic for $450. $1,100 is pretty damn tempting. I could probably get a decent 56-S for $1,100. Sorry, not trying to hijack your thread op. Stone From the auction text: This auction is for a True Polytech AKS 7.62x39 (AK47). Rifle is in good shape overall showing minor handling marks. Stock was changed out some time ago to make it legal in California with the thumb hole stock although I do not know if these are legal in California anymore. I do not know the laws so do your homework. I do not have the original stock. Bore is perfect with great shine and rifling. This particular rifle has the milled receiver and is stamped, not the legend receiver, but still a polytech. This is one of the best AKs ever made, own a great one at a great price. Comes with the 2 additional magazines, both are 25 or 30 rounders, not sure. No reserve, once there is a bid this rifle will go. ––->>That's what probably affected the bidding. He is representing it as a milled receiver. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
And last question - is this a 922 compliant firearm, and if it's not should that be a concern? (I just found a website about that, which I wasn't aware of before... if it no longer matters, please let me know) There's 9-billion posts on the 'net about 922. From what I gather from reading most of them, 922 applies to licensed firearms mfgs and firearms importers; you did neither. In 1990 it was BEYOND common to see imported EBRs with all the ban-parts included in the box for just that reason; 922 doesn't apply to private-party possession. Don't sweat it. If worried, ignore it and don't buy it, someone else will as CHICOM AKs are non-importable in any config. Values; yowza, if I could sell my PolyTech AKS762 SP for $1400.00 - it'd be gone FASSSSSSSSSST, like it, but not that much. For value, suggest you look at what Norinco MAK90's have sold for recently, that is; those with proper CHICOM furniture (getting harder to find and expensive) installed, and then factor in the fact that the PolyTech you are looking at can still accept a cleaning rod as most MAK90s can't, and has a threaded muzzle - which most MAK90s don't have due to turned-down barrel. And offer accordingly, or ignore it for someone else to buy. Someone will buy it as anything CHICOM is non-importable. Are you sure 922 only applies to importers and not private possession? I was under assumption that all imported after ban guns had to have mandatory Made in the USA parts. But to answer the original question for the post......the gun is worth $800-$900. The SP made the gun worth half. |
|
Quoted:
From the auction text: This auction is for a True Polytech AKS 7.62x39 (AK47). Rifle is in good shape overall showing minor handling marks. Stock was changed out some time ago to make it legal in California with the thumb hole stock although I do not know if these are legal in California anymore. I do not know the laws so do your homework. I do not have the original stock. Bore is perfect with great shine and rifling. This particular rifle has the milled receiver and is stamped, not the legend receiver, but still a polytech. This is one of the best AKs ever made, own a great one at a great price. Comes with the 2 additional magazines, both are 25 or 30 rounders, not sure. No reserve, once there is a bid this rifle will go. ––->>That's what probably affected the bidding. He is representing it as a milled receiver. No, he just didn't know what he had. If you had copied and pasted the ENTIRE description you would see that he edited the auction description to add: [Information added 7/16/2012 1:26:13 PM] Have had a lot of questions on this gun and some clarification so thought I would update from what I know. I took the stock off and the receiver is a flat square cut. Not sure if that is the correct terminology but the receiver is cut flat with no angle and is in the shape of a sqaure. Next I was told it cannot be both a milled and a stamped receiver, so this one is stamped. Lastly all numbers appear to be matching from the bolt, receiver, and various other stamped parts. Thanks The seller did this before anyone bid on this auction. |
|
Quoted:
<snip> have mandatory Made in the USA parts. But to answer the original question for the post......the gun is worth $800-$900. The SP made the gun worth half. Don't think it is "mandatory" for USA-made parts that were swapped in to actually be marked Made in USA anywhere to be "legal"... I have/had several WASRs, and of all of them only one had a piston rod with TAPCO embossed on the shaft, none of my other WASRs have had such a piston. I didn't even know TAPCO made pistons until I seen it. And in fact - this was on a single-stack WASR 10 of all things. And recall that very early WASRs had those famous unmarked Century-"crafted" slap-job triggers they used before they switched over to the TAPCO-marked (and better) G2 triggers. And all my WASRs had the black-plastic p-grip with the Century "Circle-C arsenal" mark. I recall my one Century hi-cap WASR bundle-pack (they were sold with bayo, bayo-lugs, slant-brake, 2-mag-pouch, and 2 Euro steel mags) as having a TAPCO G2, and black Circle-C p-grip. Can't recall that any other parts are marked with anything as to country of origin. But since I didn't make the gun, the Federal parts-counters are free to ask Century where they got all their parts for this fully-evil WASR. Would be nice if the OP told us why he yanked someone else's pics down - what was so evil as to be unseen? And value - 33 folks were chasing that GBroker auction that was referenced up to the winning $1100.00. Yowza. |
|
Quoted:
Looks like this is what he has: http://archery.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=78&t=131295 So it does not sound like it's collectible at all, right? It's like an $800 tops gun? In todays market its worth more than $ 800. I've seen some sell on GB for higher than that. Its probably worth about a grand honestly. Maybe even a bit higher? Its worth what someone will pay right. Its not worth 1400 though and I wouldn't even consider paying that. You can buy a real spiker pre ban for about 1400-1500. That is not a pre ban gun, and will never hold value the same as one. |
|
Quoted:
And last question - is this a 922 compliant firearm, and if it's not should that be a concern? (I just found a website about that, which I wasn't aware of before... if it no longer matters, please let me know) Well 922 only applies to the manufacturer/assembly. If you read the law possession is not an issue, there was a letter with clarification from ATF that stated the same that was floating around fal files a couple years ago. |
|
Quoted:
Actually that auction above is for a MILLED receiver polytech - a legend without legend markings. That's a whole step up from this one, right? No its stamped and is the exact same rifle but with the original thumbhole stock. Probably nicer shape, but lesser stock. A net wash in my opinion. Probably about the same as the original one is worth. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And last question - is this a 922 compliant firearm, and if it's not should that be a concern? (I just found a website about that, which I wasn't aware of before... if it no longer matters, please let me know) There's 9-billion posts on the 'net about 922. From what I gather from reading most of them, 922 applies to licensed firearms mfgs and firearms importers; you did neither. In 1990 it was BEYOND common to see imported EBRs with all the ban-parts included in the box for just that reason; 922 doesn't apply to private-party possession. Don't sweat it. If worried, ignore it and don't buy it, someone else will as CHICOM AKs are non-importable in any config. Values; yowza, if I could sell my PolyTech AKS762 SP for $1400.00 - it'd be gone FASSSSSSSSSST, like it, but not that much. For value, suggest you look at what Norinco MAK90's have sold for recently, that is; those with proper CHICOM furniture (getting harder to find and expensive) installed, and then factor in the fact that the PolyTech you are looking at can still accept a cleaning rod as most MAK90s can't, and has a threaded muzzle - which most MAK90s don't have due to turned-down barrel. And offer accordingly, or ignore it for someone else to buy. Someone will buy it as anything CHICOM is non-importable. Are you sure 922 only applies to importers and not private possession? I was under assumption that all imported after ban guns had to have mandatory Made in the USA parts. But to answer the original question for the post......the gun is worth $800-$900. The SP made the gun worth half. Go do some reading. As I understand it, it does apply to individuals and not just importers but possession is not a crime only the assembly is. So if you buy a non compliant rifle, no big deal you aren't violating by owning it but if you build a gun from a parts kit it needs to be compliant to be legal. I have seen a letter from ATF stating such, I'm sure you could find it with some digging. It was floating around falfiles.com a couple years ago. |
|
[/quote] Go do some reading. As I understand it, it does apply to individuals and not just importers but possession is not a crime only the assembly is. So if you buy a non compliant rifle, no big deal you aren't violating by owning it but if you build a gun from a parts kit it needs to be compliant to be legal. I have seen a letter from ATF stating such, I'm sure you could find it with some digging. It was floating around falfiles.com a couple years ago. [/quote] Let me get this straight! If you build a gun it has to have mandatory Made in the USA parts. But I can take my MAK 90 put Chinese handguards, pistol grip, and buttstock on and be fine? How come all these guys are switching off trigger grouping and using Made in the USA Ironwood Design stuff? |
|
Quoted:
Go do some reading. As I understand it, it does apply to individuals and not just importers but possession is not a crime only the assembly is. So if you buy a non compliant rifle, no big deal you aren't violating by owning it but if you build a gun from a parts kit it needs to be compliant to be legal. I have seen a letter from ATF stating such, I'm sure you could find it with some digging. It was floating around falfiles.com a couple years ago. [/quote] Let me get this straight! If you build a gun it has to have mandatory Made in the USA parts. But I can take my MAK 90 put Chinese handguards, pistol grip, and buttstock on and be fine? How come all these guys are switching off trigger grouping and using Made in the USA Ironwood Design stuff?[/quote] I believe switching the stock would be considered assembly. I think you'd probably have to add US parts. But if you bought it with that stock already on it because the previous guy didn't do his homework, you're fine. 922r is not something to be worried about when looking to buy a used gun. Its something to worry about when you build or convert something. |
|
The whole 922 debate is enough to give someone a rash. Were talking assembly as in starting with a parts set and flat or Title-1 recvr, and then mfg a firearm for Fed Excise Tax purposes (unless you are a private party for personal uses), vs. - what someone did with a rifle that has been in-country for about 23 years now.
I replaced my OEM tires with a +1 setup - I didn't assemble a car. I had Monro replace a muffler - they didn't assemble my car. Changing a broken firing pin in a gun isn't unlawful unless you are a lcensed mfg - - because it is not assembling or mfg a gun. Inserting a mag in a gun is not assembling a gun despite how the internet-fearful interpret it. Like I told the OP several times in my post - feel free to walk away, someone will eventually buy it. |
|
Quoted:
Let me get this straight! <snip> But if you bought it with that stock already on it because the previous guy didn't do his homework, you're fine. 922r is not something to be worried about when looking to buy a used gun. Its something to worry about when you build or convert something.[/quote] That is the common interpretation. |
|
Quoted:
The whole 922 debate is enough to give someone a rash. Were talking assembly as in starting with a parts set and flat or Title-1 recvr, and then mfg a firearm for Fed Excise Tax purposes (unless you are a private party for personal uses), vs. - what someone did with a rifle that has been in-country for about 23 years now. I replaced my OEM tires with a +1 setup - I didn't assemble a car. I had Monro replace a muffler - they didn't assemble my car. Changing a broken firing pin in a gun isn't unlawful unless you are a lcensed mfg - - because it is not assembling or mfg a gun. Inserting a mag in a gun is not assembling a gun despite how the internet-fearful interpret it. Like I told the OP several times in my post - feel free to walk away, someone will eventually buy it. Except that the ATF put out a letter that said if you have a gn that requires a mag for it's US parts count and you insert a mag that does not have the US parts, you are assembling a non-compliant gun and it is illegal. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The whole 922 debate is enough to give someone a rash. Were talking assembly as in starting with a parts set and flat or Title-1 recvr, and then mfg a firearm for Fed Excise Tax purposes (unless you are a private party for personal uses), vs. - what someone did with a rifle that has been in-country for about 23 years now. I replaced my OEM tires with a +1 setup - I didn't assemble a car. I had Monro replace a muffler - they didn't assemble my car. Changing a broken firing pin in a gun isn't unlawful unless you are a lcensed mfg - - because it is not assembling or mfg a gun. Inserting a mag in a gun is not assembling a gun despite how the internet-fearful interpret it. Like I told the OP several times in my post - feel free to walk away, someone will eventually buy it. Except that the ATF put out a letter that said if you have a gn that requires a mag for it's US parts count and you insert a mag that does not have the US parts, you are assembling a non-compliant gun and it is illegal. That makes sense if it was compliant with the other mag and you installed the wrong mag. I wonder how that plays out if it was already non compliant with a wrong mag when you bought it. Would taking out the mag and inserting the same type of mag, or even the same mag be illegal ? I'm not sure I know the answer. Guess its for the lawyers to decide in the very unlikely event it was made an issue. If you have a link to the letter I'd like to see it. |
|
I got some help from a licensed collector, a friend of my brother, who told me to back away from that one.
Regarding the 922 compliance, he said it absolutely applies to individuals, in the case of people converting a post-ban legal gun to banned configuration, the mandatory USA parts count must be abided by. Otherwise, defacto, they have re-assembled a banned weapon. He also pointed out that there is no grey area - the weapon was either banned or it wasn't, and if there were any of them in customs at the time, like the SP in particular, they were made compliant in order to be sold (so cutting off bayonet lugs, replacing stocks with thumbhole stocks etc.). He said converting any of those to look like the pre-ban gun (a banned gun that was sold before the ban) using the parts of the banned gun, or of the same manufacture as the parts on the banned gun, is non-compliance, and it could land you in federal prison. He then gave a list of US made parts that would make it look like a pre-ban but be compliant. Bottom line is this - it's illegal to make a banned gun. Make a copy with the required number of US made parts, no problem. Assemble a new original one, and you go to club fed. So I backed away from that deal. And I did forward the information to the seller, and he did pull down all his ads. The thing I am taking away from it is this - I can't buy all the original parts of a banned gun and assemble them here, it's illegal, I would be manufacturing a banned gun. If I want one with original parts, buy one sold before the ban (a pre-ban as we call them) that is totally legal. |
|
Quoted:
I got some help from a licensed collector, a friend of my brother, who told me to back away from that one. Regarding the 922 compliance, he said it absolutely applies to individuals, in the case of people converting a post-ban legal gun to banned configuration, the mandatory USA parts count must be abided by. Otherwise, defacto, they have re-assembled a banned weapon. He also pointed out that there is no grey area - the weapon was either banned or it wasn't, and if there were any of them in customs at the time, like the SP in particular, they were made compliant in order to be sold (so cutting off bayonet lugs, replacing stocks with thumbhole stocks etc.). He said converting any of those to look like the pre-ban gun (a banned gun that was sold before the ban) using the parts of the banned gun, or of the same manufacture as the parts on the banned gun, is non-compliance, and it could land you in federal prison. He then gave a list of US made parts that would make it look like a pre-ban but be compliant. Bottom line is this - it's illegal to make a banned gun. Make a copy with the required number of US made parts, no problem. Assemble a new original one, and you go to club fed. So I backed away from that deal. And I did forward the information to the seller, and he did pull down all his ads. The thing I am taking away from it is this - I can't buy all the original parts of a banned gun and assemble them here, it's illegal, I would be manufacturing a banned gun. If I want one with original parts, buy one sold before the ban (a pre-ban as we call them) that is totally legal. So basically if someone has Made in the USA Ironwood Design wood on their MAK, BWK, or NMH they are OK. But if they have Chinese Chu wood on their postbans they would go to jail? |
|
Quoted:
So basically if someone has Made in the USA Ironwood Design wood on their MAK, BWK, or NMH they are OK. But if they have Chinese Chu wood on their postbans they would go to jail? I don't know enough about those guns, what parts they are made of, and what the banned models are to answer. But if you roll any rifle back to BANNED configuration, with the wrong parts mix, you could go to jail, so study up first. There's a website with a chart that shows which parts count - I was just looking at it, seems simple enough. It shows the best candidates to remove from your rifle to make it compliant in banned form. The problem with the rifle and seller in this thread is he believed that his rifle was in some gray area, as it was in customs during the ban, and he could therefore restore it to a banned weapon, because it was "marginally pre-ban". But there is no gray area - the rifle was banned, that particular one was not sold before then ban, and it was reworked by the importer to make it legal to sell. It's only legal with that amount of chicom parts in that sporter configuration. The SP stands for SPORTER, and it was sold as a sporter, with a thumbhole stock, a welded muzzle nut, and no bayonet (that's how they made it legal). If he wanted to convert it to a banned weapon he would have to REMOVE a number of original parts and replace them with US parts. That's the law. Otherwise, he's recreated the banned weapon, which is illegal. I've learned a lot in going through this, it's been a real eye-opener. I am glad it happened. The guy who posted above than this seller banned his weapon was spot on. LOL. |
|
Here's the direct link to make your sporter a legal copy of a banned AK:
Gunwiki Build Ak Verify Compliance. Just check off the original parts you are replacing with US parts, and it will change the status at the bottom from ILLEGAL to LEGAL. Enjoy! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I got some help from a licensed collector, a friend of my brother, who told me to back away from that one. Regarding the 922 compliance, he said it absolutely applies to individuals, in the case of people converting a post-ban legal gun to banned configuration, the mandatory USA parts count must be abided by. Otherwise, defacto, they have re-assembled a banned weapon. He also pointed out that there is no grey area - the weapon was either banned or it wasn't, and if there were any of them in customs at the time, like the SP in particular, they were made compliant in order to be sold (so cutting off bayonet lugs, replacing stocks with thumbhole stocks etc.). He said converting any of those to look like the pre-ban gun (a banned gun that was sold before the ban) using the parts of the banned gun, or of the same manufacture as the parts on the banned gun, is non-compliance, and it could land you in federal prison. He then gave a list of US made parts that would make it look like a pre-ban but be compliant. Bottom line is this - it's illegal to make a banned gun. Make a copy with the required number of US made parts, no problem. Assemble a new original one, and you go to club fed. So I backed away from that deal. And I did forward the information to the seller, and he did pull down all his ads. The thing I am taking away from it is this - I can't buy all the original parts of a banned gun and assemble them here, it's illegal, I would be manufacturing a banned gun. If I want one with original parts, buy one sold before the ban (a pre-ban as we call them) that is totally legal. So basically if someone has Made in the USA Ironwood Design wood on their MAK, BWK, or NMH they are OK. But if they have Chinese Chu wood on their postbans they would go to jail? Not necessarily. I agree with the premise of the above post but nowhere does it say in that post you can't possess it, it says you can't build/assemble it. There is a difference. You won't go to jail for Chinese chu wood on a mak90 unless its proven you were the one who put installed it. I searched on falfiles.com found a copy of the relevant letter from ATF I mentioned earlier here it is posted below. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I got some help from a licensed collector, a friend of my brother, who told me to back away from that one. Regarding the 922 compliance, he said it absolutely applies to individuals, in the case of people converting a post-ban legal gun to banned configuration, the mandatory USA parts count must be abided by. Otherwise, defacto, they have re-assembled a banned weapon. He also pointed out that there is no grey area - the weapon was either banned or it wasn't, and if there were any of them in customs at the time, like the SP in particular, they were made compliant in order to be sold (so cutting off bayonet lugs, replacing stocks with thumbhole stocks etc.). He said converting any of those to look like the pre-ban gun (a banned gun that was sold before the ban) using the parts of the banned gun, or of the same manufacture as the parts on the banned gun, is non-compliance, and it could land you in federal prison. He then gave a list of US made parts that would make it look like a pre-ban but be compliant. Bottom line is this - it's illegal to make a banned gun. Make a copy with the required number of US made parts, no problem. Assemble a new original one, and you go to club fed. So I backed away from that deal. And I did forward the information to the seller, and he did pull down all his ads. The thing I am taking away from it is this - I can't buy all the original parts of a banned gun and assemble them here, it's illegal, I would be manufacturing a banned gun. If I want one with original parts, buy one sold before the ban (a pre-ban as we call them) that is totally legal. So basically if someone has Made in the USA Ironwood Design wood on their MAK, BWK, or NMH they are OK. But if they have Chinese Chu wood on their postbans they would go to jail? Not necessarily. I agree with the premise of the above post but nowhere does it say in that post you can't possess it, it says you can't build/assemble it. There is a difference. You won't go to jail for Chinese chu wood on a mak90 unless its proven you were the one who put installed it. I searched on falfiles.com found a copy of the relevant letter from ATF I mentioned earlier here it is posted below. http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/Y8ber/ATFletter.jpg http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/Y8ber/ATFletterpage2.jpg I asked about that, and was told "An illegal gun is illegal no matter where you got it. There's no way you can fool anybody into thinking that's a pre-ban gun, it is clearly marked SP. Even if you don't go to jail, and they don't press charges don't think they won't grab the gun!" Now it may be different with other makes/models and I have no idea. But what he said makes sense - even if I just happened to buy it, and am not the one who built it, the gun gets seized nevertheless. Evil gun. |
|
I see how these trains of thought here get people in trouble. Everybody wants a pre-ban, but they don't want to pay. So they scheme how they can get one, not realizing that they didn't conspire to get a pre-ban - they conspired to get a banned gun. So they start thinking of stuff like that, "Oh, well they can't PROVE I built it... so it's okay, right?"
LOL. Pre-ban is NOT a gun type. It's an indication that a banned gun was SOLD prior to the ban. You can't build a pre-ban, you can only build a banned, or legal gun. And if you buy a banned gun, you may not go to jail, but if you get caught you will lose it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I got some help from a licensed collector, a friend of my brother, who told me to back away from that one. Regarding the 922 compliance, he said it absolutely applies to individuals, in the case of people converting a post-ban legal gun to banned configuration, the mandatory USA parts count must be abided by. Otherwise, defacto, they have re-assembled a banned weapon. He also pointed out that there is no grey area - the weapon was either banned or it wasn't, and if there were any of them in customs at the time, like the SP in particular, they were made compliant in order to be sold (so cutting off bayonet lugs, replacing stocks with thumbhole stocks etc.). He said converting any of those to look like the pre-ban gun (a banned gun that was sold before the ban) using the parts of the banned gun, or of the same manufacture as the parts on the banned gun, is non-compliance, and it could land you in federal prison. He then gave a list of US made parts that would make it look like a pre-ban but be compliant. Bottom line is this - it's illegal to make a banned gun. Make a copy with the required number of US made parts, no problem. Assemble a new original one, and you go to club fed. So I backed away from that deal. And I did forward the information to the seller, and he did pull down all his ads. The thing I am taking away from it is this - I can't buy all the original parts of a banned gun and assemble them here, it's illegal, I would be manufacturing a banned gun. If I want one with original parts, buy one sold before the ban (a pre-ban as we call them) that is totally legal. So basically if someone has Made in the USA Ironwood Design wood on their MAK, BWK, or NMH they are OK. But if they have Chinese Chu wood on their postbans they would go to jail? Not necessarily. I agree with the premise of the above post but nowhere does it say in that post you can't possess it, it says you can't build/assemble it. There is a difference. You won't go to jail for Chinese chu wood on a mak90 unless its proven you were the one who put installed it. I searched on falfiles.com found a copy of the relevant letter from ATF I mentioned earlier here it is posted below. http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/Y8ber/ATFletter.jpg http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/Y8ber/ATFletterpage2.jpg I asked about that, and was told "An illegal gun is illegal no matter where you got it. There's no way you can fool anybody into thinking that's a pre-ban gun, it is clearly marked SP. Even if you don't go to jail, and they don't press charges don't think they won't grab the gun!" Now it may be different with other makes/models and I have no idea. But what he said makes sense - even if I just happened to buy it, and am not the one who built it, the gun gets seized nevertheless. Evil gun. Who did you ask ? That letter is right from the horses mouth (ATF) and that holds more weight then someone's opinion. You won't go to jail. You are aware there is probably hundred of thousands of violations of 922s many of which right in the public view on gunbroker, at gun shows and shops. I've heard a rumor there has been one conviction since 1989. It isn't enforced. No one I've ever talked to has known of any conviction although its broken flagrantly. Am I telling you to break the law ? No, I wouldn't and I apologize if it sounds that way. I personally would do it right and pay for a pre ban. I'm a purist and appreciate the real thing. But neither would I worry about a gun like that. The fact is you didn't break the law by owning it. If they don't even enforce the law why worry about when you are in the right legally and there is no applicable charge. Would they seize it ? Its certainly possible. But no arrest or prosecution as there is no crime. ATF has been asked these questions, their answer is above. They are the ones who enforce the law and their opinion is what matters. |
|
Quoted:
I see how these trains of thought here get people in trouble. Everybody wants a pre-ban, but they don't want to pay. So they scheme how they can get one, not realizing that they didn't conspire to get a pre-ban - they conspired to get a banned gun. So they start thinking of stuff like that, "Oh, well they can't PROVE I built it... so it's okay, right?" LOL. Pre-ban is NOT a gun type. It's an indication that a banned gun was SOLD prior to the ban. You can't build a pre-ban, you can only build a banned, or legal gun. And if you buy a banned gun, you may not go to jail, but if you get caught you will lose it. I'd rather pay for a pre ban. I've no interest in SP guns.. But I'd like people to be aware of the facts. There is a lot of confusion about 922r out there. |
|
Quoted:
Its good that the OP walked away. Peace of mind. Someone else will buy it, shoot the shiite out of it for the next 20+ years that it'll be in-country. Its over priced anyways... I am curious about your comment. It is worded as if you expect to be here awhile but not forever, why would leave the country? |
|
Quoted:
Its over priced anyways... I am curious about your comment. It is worded as if you expect to be here awhile but not forever, why would leave the country? No, not like someone would take it away to Canada or anything, it's just that it has been in the USA for about 22-24 years now, and who knows how many times it has changed hands. It'll be around for even longer, and who know how many more will come to own it. I know how that works, I can count on one hand the number of new guns I have, all the rest are re-treads. I personally get bored with guns after a bit and have no issue selling for something new/different. I wish I didn't have to, but to get a new-to-me gun I have to sell an old gun. Someone gets my re-treads. |
|
Here is an overpriced example of a former PolyTech SP that was butchered into post-90 MAK90 specs.
Heard of these, but never seen one. A banned gun made even "banner". PolyTech MAK90 Sporter |
|
The gun Mike Chandler referred to and sold at Gun brokers .com as he stated is not a milled receiver is absolutely correct.Its a stamped one.Also in the add the seller claims the gun is a pre ban.It is not a preban .That gun is a post ban gun.
And they sold for around $450 when customs released them.I know because I bought 1 for that price.Mine had a choate black stock not the wood . Top dollar for this type gun is $550 -$600.You pay more than that then your getting ripped off.There are over 4000 of these that were released from customs.Some one should contact that buyer to let him know to hold that seller responsible for false advertising and price gouging. You really have to know what your buying before you lay your money down.My take on these guns as well are they were meant to be bought and shot and shot a lot.They are not a collectors item to be stuffed into some safe for 30 years and resold later.They are not and never will be comaprable to the Chinese Legend pre ban guns which are true collectables. |
|
In terms of CHICOM guns, "pre-ban" can also be stretched to describe any pre-Klinton-CHICOM-ban gun. And the CHICOM ban itself is still in effect with no end in sight.
So, maybe the guy overused the term a tad, but captilism is capitilism and as long as the buyer is happy. And while - IMHO - ALL CHICOM AKs are a bit over-the-top over-rated, the Norinco-based MAK90s and PolyTech AKS762SPs and poorly-ground AKS762SP-based MAK90s are still very desirable substitutes for those that can't swing the pre-89 versions or a Legend. Also, buyers determine what is "a collectible". As MAK90 shoppers discover that there are no more MAK90s in the pipeline ever - they will continue to snag them up at whatever they have to pay so as to have one. |
|
Quoted:
The gun Mike Chandler referred to and sold at Gun brokers .com as he stated is not a milled receiver is absolutely correct.Its a stamped one.Also in the add the seller claims the gun is a pre ban.It is not a preban .That gun is a post ban gun. And they sold for around $450 when customs released them.I know because I bought 1 for that price.Mine had a choate black stock not the wood . Top dollar for this type gun is $550 -$600.You pay more than that then your getting ripped off.There are over 4000 of these that were released from customs.Some one should contact that buyer to let him know to hold that seller responsible for false advertising and price gouging. You really have to know what your buying before you lay your money down.My take on these guns as well are they were meant to be bought and shot and shot a lot.They are not a collectors item to be stuffed into some safe for 30 years and resold later.They are not and never will be comaprable to the Chinese Legend pre ban guns which are true collectables. I remember back in the late '60's when my uncles would argue over whether those old 03a3's, 1911's and Mauser's would ever be worth anything as a "collectible". Just like MAK 90's the market was flooded with surplus guns, many unissued. So I guess everyone selling a 1943 Remington Rand for $1200 and up is "price gouging" since those surplus 1911's sold for less than $100. 
"False advertising" and "price gouging"? Laughable. 
|
|
Quoted:
The gun Mike Chandler referred to and sold at Gun brokers .com as he stated is not a milled receiver is absolutely correct.Its a stamped one.Also in the add the seller claims the gun is a pre ban.It is not a preban .That gun is a post ban gun. And they sold for around $450 when customs released them.I know because I bought 1 for that price.Mine had a choate black stock not the wood . Top dollar for this type gun is $550 -$600.You pay more than that then your getting ripped off.There are over 4000 of these that were released from customs.Some one should contact that buyer to let him know to hold that seller responsible for false advertising and price gouging. You really have to know what your buying before you lay your money down.My take on these guns as well are they were meant to be bought and shot and shot a lot.They are not a collectors item to be stuffed into some safe for 30 years and resold later.They are not and never will be comaprable to the Chinese Legend pre ban guns which are true collectables. I don't agree with that price quote of 600. Yes the gun here was misrepresented but there is plenty that were described accurately and even with the original thumbhole stock sell for far above that. They are worth more than that. I would buy all I could at 600. A lot of people remember what the Chinese guns used to sell for and fail to remember values go up with time. |
|
Quoted:
IMO the main thing that helps keep the value up on the Chinese guns besides the fixed supply is the nice blued finish. Most AK's have a crappy parked on finish that varies from decent (Russian/Saiga) to crap (Romanian). I think its more than that. Not needing US parts on the pre ban guns is a huge deal too. And I think the quality is a lot better than most of the current guns on the market. |
| You go right ahead and pay 800 and more for those guns.I can buy 2 Russian Saigas for that price which is a more accurate gun and better quality parts than the chinese sp POST ban guns. Dont care if they ever make more in the future or not They are not collector items. SP |
|
Quoted:
You go right ahead and pay 800 and more for those guns.I can buy 2 Russian Saigas for that price which is a more accurate gun and better quality parts than the chinese sp POST ban guns. Dont care if they ever make more in the future or not They are not collector items. SP 
|
|
Quoted:
You go right ahead and pay 800 and more for those guns.I can buy 2 Russian Saigas for that price which is a more accurate gun and better quality parts than the chinese sp POST ban guns. Dont care if they ever make more in the future or not They are not collector items. SP You think the Saiga's are better quality than the Chinese guns ? I doubt that. It is the other way around. And the proper AK style Saiga's with pistol grip and Ak style gas block/break are about 800, not 400. |
AK Sponsor