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Posted: 2/8/2009 5:32:01 PM EDT
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I recently purchased a SA 85M Hungarian AK, for $750 at a gunshow. The seller stated that the gun was a pre '89 gun that belonged to a preacher who bought the gun in the 80's kept it and didn't shoot it much.
The gun has a fixed stock, bayo lug, cleaning kit in the stock, flip up night sights on the front and rear site, threaded barrel with slant brake (slant brake has the dentent coming out of the front sight base to correctly time the slant brake). The gun did not come with a box, but did have a leather sling attached. The finish on the gun is the semi gloss that is seen on other FEG SA 85Ms. The finish is consistent among all of the parts on the gun. The serial number on the gun is 182XX. All numbers match. It is marked KBI imports. This is where the question comes in. I have done some reading on here where people stated that only post ban guns were marked KBI, that all of the pre ban guns were marked Kassner (sp?). However, I also read (can't remember exactly if it was here or on another forum; I've been researching this gun since I bought it) that there were some guns imported pre '89 marked KBI. It is my understanding that it was the same company, just different markings. Is this possible? From looking at the gun if it was a "debanned" post '89 gun, the gunsmith that did the work did a wonderful job, and the seller was lying to me (or could have been confused). I will try to post pictures some detailed pictures within the next few days. Does anyone have any idea exaclty what I have? |
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If it has the threaded barrel I would say its a preban model made before 89. These are some great AK's and I would say you got a good deal as I always thought these were some of the best stamped models brought over. I have seen several post ban models pop up lately without the threaded barrel and with the thumbhole stocks but none like you got. The cheapest of the post ban models I ran across was in the mid 700's.
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If it is marked K.B.I. it is POST-BAN. Absolutely, positively, 1000%, no exceptions...post-ban. My first AK purchase was an SA-85M and I emailed Michael Kassnar himself for some info regarding pre/post-ban statuses. Of course I no longer have the email from 2000, but he clearly stated that difference(Kassnar/KBI). They were imported several years apart, and there is no room for error here.
The company changed the marking to K.B.I. specifically to denote post-1989 rifles so people like the guy(at the gunshow) selling this one could be exposed for the bullshit artists that they are. To my knowledge the only AK's that could be argued being transitional by '89 date are Yugoslavian and Chinese. K.B.I. also imported post-ban Polytechs for a short while, again neutered. . . . My barrel is threaded too, and has a slant brake(done by local smith)...this rifle having those features means nothing today as they can be easily added. You said the finish matched? It could have been a complete re-barrel with parts already on it and painted. There were some really nice SA-85M parts kits a while back IIRC. . . . Last edit I promise: Just so you feel better, the price of a K.B.I. marked post-ban that has been as you say "debanned to perfect specs" would be worth $750 for sure, especially in todays market. I would love for mine to be accurately altered versus just the furniture, slant brake and detent that I got long ago for not much less after finding the original stock and smithing fees years before those parts kits arrived. So it isn't NY state legal, but you didn't get ripped off either, rather just standard green-toothed gun dealer lied to :) |
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It's a postban gun. Michael Kassnar is a member here and runs the Charles Daly industry forum. You can verify it with him. No shit? That's cool to have the actual importer present here :) But uh...where is the Charles Daly forum? http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=299&t=162055 |
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Thanks for the info guys. I will try to get some pictures up later this week when I get a chance to sit down with my good camera and shoot some pictures.
As the poster above stated, I feel like I didn't get ripped off, I just didn't get the deal that I thought I did. It is a beautiful gun, and whoever did the conversion did a great job. I may be interested in selling it at a later date. Hell, even most of the better build kit guns like the Vectors are selling for over 700 these days. At least now I don't have to worry about blasting many rounds through it and lowering the value, if it was a true "collectable." |
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can the detent pin in the sight be replaced. My serial #092XX does not have one. May not matter as I think I will have to put some AR type of FH on this rifle. Yes, look at the other thread on this and you will see where I replaced the FSB on mine and another members and they have the detent. All you need to do is drive out the first pin and install the spring and pin. |
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I have a post-ban #17xxx so I'm pretty sure yours is too. the question for you now is 'Does it have the correct US parts to comply with US922r?' Your serial # is all the proof needed. Yours predates his, problem solved. The meaning of my statement was, if he has a stock and pistol grip instead of the thumbhole stock, he would have to take out many FEG parts and substitute US parts to be compliant. Since my serial number is lower than his, and mine is post-ban, his has to be also. Now, I don't personally care if it's compliant or not, I just thoght the OP should be aware of that aspect. |
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I went and shot the gun yesterday. It is pretty accurate from what I could tell (I wasn't trying to hard for accuracy with a bench or anything). I haven't broken down the gun so I don't know what FCG parts are installed. How much are FCG replacement parts (assuming that the original Hungarian ones have not been changed out) and how hard are they to install?
I'm not the biggest fan of AKs in general and I purchased this gun thinking it was an original pre '89, looking to turn around and sell it. If the gun doesn't have any US parts installed, first off I want to get them replaced ASAP, and second off I'm pretty pissed off at the gun show dealer for being a charlatan (what's new?) and selling me this gun. I've looked around the AK build section and haven't been able to find out any concise details about changing out the FCG. Does anyone have any suggestions? |
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I went and shot the gun yesterday. It is pretty accurate from what I could tell (I wasn't trying to hard for accuracy with a bench or anything). I haven't broken down the gun so I don't know what FCG parts are installed. How much are FCG replacement parts (assuming that the original Hungarian ones have not been changed out) and how hard are they to install? I've looked around the AK build section and haven't been able to find out any concise details about changing out the FCG. Does anyone have any suggestions? http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/akFCG/ TAPCO single hook fire control group runs around $30.00. Available from DPHarms, Copes Distributing and other places. Might be able to get on here on the EE. K-VAR also has a single hook fire control group that will work. You need 6 US compliance parts on a stamped AK with a threaded muzzle. K-VAR is running some compliance part special as of last week. You get three (3) US parts with the FCG, a pistol grip is 1, a US slant brake is 1, mag follower (1) and baseplates (1) are available but need to be put in every mag that will be inserted into the rifle. If you are going to sell the rifle with say two mags by using the followers and baseplates they will need to be in each mag. |
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I have a post-ban #17xxx so I'm pretty sure yours is too. the question for you now is 'Does it have the correct US parts to comply with US922r?' Your serial # is all the proof needed. Yours predates his, problem solved. Since my serial number is lower than his, and mine is post-ban, his has to be also. That part was all that I was referring to, your info was quite helpful in this regard. But now that you mention it he didn't say he checked for US parts and now confirmed he hasn't...but the serial is all I was quoting anyway and agree with your conclusion. |
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It seems they really went out of there way with the bayo lug and threaded barrel. My two KBI SA-85Ms don't have those features, but I put USA made FCG/Stocks so they look nearly pre-ban now. Exactly what I was thinking. I guess thats why I initially had a hard time believing that this gun was a conversion and not a true preban. It's not normal for gun show charlatans to have guns that are up to "ARFCOM standards" so to speak. |
From the information that I have: 
1. 4,500 imported (pre-89 and/or released from Customs in 1991?) 2. SM/SL 0000X-0262X all "Kassnar" marked 3. SM/SL 0333X-0383X al "KBI" marked with threaded barrels 4. SM 0516X-26775 all "KBI" marked with thumbhole stocks and non-threaded barrels. SM = fixed stock/SL = folding stock. 
Tony |
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Correction:
1. SM/SL 0000X-0452X (Kassnar) 2. SM 04680-2677X (KBI). The only thing that I can figure on your SM04680 (KBI) with threaded barrel would be an early import (caught in Customs, released in 1991 and marked KBI (Kassnar Brothers, Inc.)- successor to Kassnar).
Sorry I could not be more help. 
Tony |
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Thank you AAG, I suppose this gun was sold in 91 and someone changed the stock and put the Russian laminate buttstock on it at some point in time (they did an impressive job, it looks factory). The grip handle is like no other I have seen on an AK. The gun has one of the nicest finishes on it of any AK I have ever seen and the trigger is butter. I kinda like it.
Thanks again, Dan |
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Thank you AAG, I suppose this gun was sold in 91 and someone changed the stock and put the Russian laminate buttstock on it at some point in time (they did an impressive job, it looks factory). The grip handle is like no other I have seen on an AK. The gun has one of the nicest finishes on it of any AK I have ever seen and the trigger is butter. I kinda like it. Thanks again, Dan Dan, That rifle is gorgeous––- the wood furniture looks great!!!
Tony |
| I do not believe that is a 'pre-ban'. I would say it has been modified to be in the current condition and thus would need to be 922r compliant. I think the pistol grip was sanded down by an owner for ergonomic reasons - either that or it's home-made. The original thumbhole stock was removed and the laminate wood put on. The barrel was threaded and the muzzle device installed. Looks pretty clear-cut to me. |
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I still do not believe in the "caught in customs" theory regarding Hungarian AK's even though the post ban KBI's were imported from '89-'93(I checked the Charles Daly forum).
For arguments sake, let's assume there were a few: they would still have been neutered as far as the cleaning rod holders on both the front sight and gas block, leaving only the threaded barrel and original stock as there should not have been any thumbholes produced yet(why would they in '89, the ban just happened). So it sits in a warehouse until '91(your quoted date) presumably for when these fancy new styled stocks arrive. This "customs caught" AK is still marked KBI because Kassnar doesn't exist anymore, still has the missing rod holders, and still missing the original stock. Kassnar marked SA-85M's were imported in '86-'87 only. There was no chance of a KASSNAR being caught during a shipping phase because of the two year difference with not a single AK imported, thus no Kassnar marked neutered rifles. My point is, even "if" any Hungarians were caught, the fact that they were neutered nullifies any consideration of it being anything other than a regular post-ban KBI marked Hungarian with the only difference being it has the muzzle threaded, a $10 job, and failure to comply as it should have a welded muzzle nut(this is key to my doubting). With the exception of the original poster who still has not produced a photo for us, all these claimed "custom cuaght" Hungarians always have a totally different type of furniture on them, another dead giveaway that someone simply changed the stock, not exactly a marvel of gunsmithing capabilities  Even if you found an original unused(no holes drilled) Hungarian stock for it, it's still missing those loops.
Another angle to look from: If it has cleaning rod loops, the original stock(or any replacement), threaded muzzle, then what exactly happened in customs when it was caught? To match the OP's rifle, customs would have had to do nothing at all except release it 2 years later with no neutering, and violating their own law. . . . I signed up on the Chuck D forum and will ask Mike specifically about "customs caught" AK's so we can conclude the subject once and for all. It's been bugging me for 9 years now and I'd like the truth from the actual source myself even though what I wrote is logical in its conclusion. p.s. KBI doesn't stand for Kassnar Brothers Inc. It was suggested it might be a combination of "KGB" and "FBI" as a joke in regards to the possible original sourcing of the rifles. It could also have jokingly meant "Kassnar bought it", so says Mike himself, the son of the original company owner(Kassnar senior). That;s another useless information piece I've wanted answered for many moons...will report back with the "customs" data after I have been authorized for posting there. |
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Here is the response from the President of KBI in regards to "customs caught" SA-85M's:
SA-85M ZERO exist. All non Kassnar's came in after the ban. . . . The KBI acronym was answered in my previous post. If you browse the forum I linked above you'll find that answer in another thread. The AK section isn't very big and you can read the whole thing in about 10-15 mins...it's still kind of new. I'm not sure he actually knows, or wants to reveal it
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From the information that I have:
1. 4,500 imported (pre-89 and/or released from Customs in 1991?) 2. SM/SL 0000X-0262X all "Kassnar" marked 3. SM/SL 0333X-0383X al "KBI" marked with threaded barrels 4. SM 0516X-26775 all "KBI" marked with thumbhole stocks and non-threaded barrels. SM = fixed stock/SL = folding stock.
Tony Tony To update your list. I have a Post Ban Thumbhole non thread kbi etc......serial number SM 273XX |
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From the information that I have:
1. 4,500 imported (pre-89 and/or released from Customs in 1991?) 2. SM/SL 0000X-0262X all "Kassnar" marked 3. SM/SL 0333X-0383X al "KBI" marked with threaded barrels 4. SM 0516X-26775 all "KBI" marked with thumbhole stocks and non-threaded barrels. SM = fixed stock/SL = folding stock.
Tony Tony To update your list. I have a Post Ban Thumbhole non thread kbi etc......serial number SM 273XX Speaking of that list, it needs to be totally reworked. There are 7000 total Kassnar rifles(4k folders/3k full), I do not know the number of KBI though. Remove all references to "customs caught" AK's Delete the line with threaded KBI barrels as we now know they were done by smiths afterwards. Only 2-3 lines are needed: 1-2 for the Kassnars(1 fold/1 full), 1 for the KBI's. . . . Sandbox: they all have "SA-85M" and "FEG" marked on them, the only item worth pointing out in your pic is the Kassnar text as that is the only marking that differs. |
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From the information that I have:
1. 4,500 imported (pre-89 and/or released from Customs in 1991?) 2. SM/SL 0000X-0262X all "Kassnar" marked 3. SM/SL 0333X-0383X al "KBI" marked with threaded barrels 4. SM 0516X-26775 all "KBI" marked with thumbhole stocks and non-threaded barrels. SM = fixed stock/SL = folding stock.
Tony Tony To update your list. I have a Post Ban Thumbhole non thread kbi etc......serial number SM 273XX Thanks for the assistance––- that is the highest number I have seen!!!
Tony |
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FP,
No disrepect intended. On the total number of "Kassnar" marked, I will stay with 4,500 (3,000- folder/1,500- fixed), based upon:
1. Highest number "Kassnar" (SM0452X); 2. Lowest number "KBI" (SM04680). So, here is what we have:
1. "Kassnar" (SM0000X-SM0452X)/(1986)/(SM- fixed, SL- folder); 2. "KBI" (SM04680-SM273XX)/(1989-1993)/(SM- fixed/thumbhole- all). Also, after an exhaustive search, KBI, Inc. = Kassnar Brothers International, Inc.
Tony |
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None taken.
I thought you read Mr. Kassnar's reply the other day? In that thread he also mentions the 7000 Kassnar's: "The Kassnar Imports SA-85M guns were imported into the US in 1986. All 7,000 of them. All are 100% pre-ban.". So he said 7000, but you're staying with 4500 because every Kassnar owner hasn't contacted you yet to give you their serial number and you have a one serial KBI that doesn't fit with your chart? I don't get it. I think it would be easier to conclude someone goofed on that one KBI serial... Where did you finish the exhaustive research on the KBI acronym? Again, it differs from what the president of the company in question stated earlier. As far as I can tell, you googled that phrase and decided it must be true based on the DOJ website that lists it as such, and the other websites that copied exactly that same list assuming it was fact. Does he even have a brother? All I've heard/read on the forums is about his father. Here is that thread where he doesn't actually answer the question: KBI acronym "IF" he has a brother...I'd agree with your answer. I think we can both agree the K does probably stand for Kassnar though :) |
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FP,
I read all of the posts at Charles Daly––- thanks!!!
All I am saying is that, of all the KBI's that I have seen, the relevant serials have been SM04680-SM0743X (one being a Vietnam War Trophy Edition). 
Therefore, I am not challenging the veracity of you or Michael Kassnar––- just saying, based on what I have actually seen over the years.
As far as KBI goes, you would think that Michael would know what the business initials are––- the KGB/FBI thing dates to when KBI imported the Dragunovs from Russia (1994)––- after the SA 85M's.
Oh well, I guess we can agree to disagree.
Tony |
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