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Posted: 12/19/2003 4:22:48 PM EDT
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I went to the range for another accuracy test today. I put the scope and mount back on the M5S with the intent of getting a perfect 100 yard sighting-in, then moving to the 200 and 300 yard ranges for a really good test. I had a terrible time trying to get it zeroed-in. For example, I would hit 8" low and 4" left. I would adjust the scope for 4" left only, but the next shot would be 8" high and 4" left. And that was after I had burned over 50 rounds to get it that good. I thought the scope must have died. I finally fired one large group target with 10 shots all over the place and decided to quit. I was two rounds into my 4th magazine now (I needed the two to get the 10 shot group), I unloaded, and noticed when I pulled the bolt back it was very stuff. I tried it again and it was way too stiff, so I took off the scope mount to get a better grip. It was very stiff but moved back. I tried the bolt a few more times and it started smoothing out so I thought all was well and put it aside. I just got an old Swedish Mauser, so I setup new targets, fired five rounds and was satisfied. Since I had a perfectly good target up I decided to fire the rest of the magazine in the M5 with open sights. I loaded and fired fine. The group was better than what I was getting with the scope, other than being vertically challenged. I put the rifle down, but later when I checked the chamber the bolt was about one inch out of battery with the brass visible. It would not open and I was afraid I might break the extractor if used too much force, so I tried pushing the bolt forward. With a little force it went forward. I pulled the trigger and BANG! That was a live round that did not chamber! The bolt was again stuck about one inch out of battery and would not move either way. I recovered the brass just ejected and it looked perfect. At home I could not see what was causing this jam. I couple of light taps with a rubber mallet got the bolt back easier than I thought it would. Well, the front of the right side receiver rail is smashed in the front like the bolt has been hitting it repeatedly with excessive force and causing it to deform upward where it interferes with the bolt moving back and forth. What!!!! I have not been using HOT RELOADS in this gun. I have fired Q3131A from Ammoman and Midway, and M193 from Ammoman, less than a thousand rounds total. Plus 5 rounds each of Federal American Eagle 55gr FMJ Boat Tail and Hornady 75gr BTHP Lot 030092. That's it. The only thing I can figure is the receiver was not properly heat treated. Any other ideas? I will be sending this baby back to the factory for a checkup. Templar, the Robinson Arms modified magazines worked perfectly until the very last shot! Robert Edited to add two more types of ammo fired, 10 rounds total, from a previous ammo test. |
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Wow....I'm just glad you're OK. Call Arsenal Monday, ASAP and tell them what happened. They WILL take care of you....the two times I've ever had to send them anything back, it was taken care of quickly. Gotta say this is highly unusuall....I've never heard of this happening with their stuff, but again, I've seen some seriously screwed up stuff from every manufacturer. Again, call them toll free at 1 888 539 2220 Ask to speak to John. If he's not available, tell them what happened. Again, I'm glad you're not hurt, that could have been a very dangerous day at the range. They will make it right, I'm sure. |
| Robert, email me at [email protected] and I'll post the pics. |
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The first picture shows the high spot on the rail where the bolt would catch upon forward movement and not close. I put it back together and the bolt is stuck at that very spot, about an inch short of fully closing. The second picture shows where the bolt was slamming against the rail. Notice how the rail has been smashed back and has slightly raised the level of the rail. It slopes upward. The high spot blocks movement of the bolt in either direction. |
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Templar, I called this morning and the lady with an accent told me John was not availible. She refused to give me a call tag when I asked. She said I have to take the rifle back to the dealer I got it from (an hour+ drive for me) and have them send it back to them at my cost and insured. I asked again about just getting a call tag and she said they don't do it that way. I asked again to speak to John, but he is not availible. Her tone was pleasant, but it was obvious she was not going cost her employer one cent to examine this rifle. It will probably be at least next Saturday before I can make it to the dealer. For a $709 rifle just released on the market, you would think they would show more interest in a receiver failure. Robert |
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Hey guys! I wrote up a letter to go back with the rifle explaining what happened and requesting warranty service. I need some critiques here. Did I explain it technically correct? What should I expect next? I've never had to send a gun back before. ------------------------- Dear Sirs, I am returning for inspection and repair under warranty my M-5S rifle after a major malfunction and discovery of defects leading to it. The malfunction occurred when the bolt, holding a live round, stopped approximately one inch short of closing. It was impossible to determine if it locked up while chambering a live round or while ejecting spent brass by just looking at it. It would not eject the round when I applied a moderate amount of pressure trying to pull back the bolt. I thought anymore force might break the extractor off, so I applied forward pressure instead and it went into battery. When I pulled the trigger it fired! Upon inspection the internal receiver rail on the right side looks like it has been hammered by the bolt during recoil. The smashed up metal on the rail now prevents the bolt from traveling in either direction. The most likely cause I can surmise is improper heat treating of the receiver resulting in soft metal and a defective receiver. There are also little strips of what looks like bullet jacket shavings in the receiver. I have no idea why this would occur. The spent brass I recovered looked normal. Maybe there is something wrong in the chamber or headspace. The total rounds fired is well below 1,000 and probably closer to 500. Only factory loaded Winchester, Federal, and Hornady ammunition has been used, and I have been the only one to fire it. I wiped excess oil from the receiver, bolt, and carrier when I was inspecting it, but other than that, it is as it was when the bolt first locked up. I purchased this rifle new on October 18th and the malfunction occurred December 19th. I was surprised your company would not issue a call tag for such a new rifle under warranty and instead have the customer pay for its return. I look forward to your engineers findings. |
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Robert, I've taken and linked (by URL) this thread over at the Arsenal board on the K-VAR forums. I've asked Arsenal-DPC (Alexander) if he could read this thread and possibly give you some immediate assistance (possibly with an initial diagnosis). I seriously doubt the problem is caused by a lack of heat treating, but maybe an out of spec dimension somewhere that is causing the unwanted harsh contact. In any case, they are good folks, and because of this, they should do you right once they receive the gun back from you. I know it sucks to be one of the few guys that has to send back an Arsenal Inc gun, but at least you should feel confident that once they have it back in their hands, it will almost surely be made right for you. There is no doubt that it sounds like a blooper on their part was made, but it should soon be okay :) I hope you don't mind that I linked this post over on the Arsenal Inc forum. I just figured they may be able to give you some immediate assistance. Also, serious problems with Arsenal Inc made guns are pretty damn rare, and when one pops up, it's good for all of us to see the root cause (for curiosity and personal knowledge sake). Again, I know it sucks to be the one others learn from because you were unlucky enough to have received a fluke. The good news is that Arsenal Inc seems to be a real good company, and even though they are human, they too will send out the occasional fluke (but they are good about making them right). I agree with you that a call tag would have been real nice, but I also know that this is not the norm with most firearm manufacturers (but I feel it should be). Good luck Robert, and please keep us informed on the status of your guns repair. Thanks :) |
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Thanks SSR-99. I had forgotten about the forums over there. Once I went there, I remembered I had visited them before the M5 was produced. I only had to work half a day today so I went up to the dealer a day early. He was surprised an Arsenal receiver had problems. He has sold tons of them without a single problem. It should have been shipped out this afternoon and Arsenal should have it by the end of the month. I've been wondering a bit about these Bulgarian type receivers. I took a look at my M7 receiver for comparison and noticed it has a little nick in the same area, but lower, on the front side of the right rail. I hope it does not grow! It has less than 500 rounds of Wolf through it so far. The VEPR .223 on the other hand, has a completely different system. The rail is not involved holding the bolt forward during recoil. Instead there is a little lug forward of the rail that absorbs all the recoil force (if that's the right way to describe it). Today at the Gun Shop I looked at a little Romanian SAR-3 and it too has the lug forward and separate from the rail. It looks much more heavy duty and substantial to do it that way. There sure is a lot of differences in the design of these receivers. Hopefully in a week or so I will know what is going on with that M5. Robert |
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Robert, Alexander (Arsenal-DPC) over on the K-VAR forums responded with the following: "SSR-99, Thank You for bringing the matter to our attention. Customer satisfaction is our highest priority and we will be happy to receive any of our products that are not completely satisfactory. We are interested in examining this particular SAM-5 S for a thorough inspection and we will remedy any problems we might find. Please relay our message to Robert 2011 as we have no contact information. He is welcome to give us a call during around business hours and speak to us. Alexander Wulfe" They will take care of you buddy :) |
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Okay, we have received some reassurance on the heat treating processes of Arsenal Inc. The above mentioned SA-M5 may indeed have some sort of a major factory defect, but I doubt after reading the following, that we will have these flukes show up very often. "Dear Jimmy (SSR-99) Thanks again for bringing this to our attention. In reference to this question of our heat treating process. Perhaps we need too re-clarify a few points. Arsenal Inc. is exclusively licensed by Arsenal of Bulgaria and enjoys complete transfer of technology and 100% support of Arsenal of Bulgaria engineering department. We follow all long established technical procedures to exact specification and have a history and proven track record of surpassing the already legendary standard. In addition, as we have mentioned in previous communiqués, Arsenal of Nevada employs several top end, fully factory trained and authorized technicians and engineers. In addition we have 100% technical, assurance and engineering support by the mother factory. The material specification and procedures used in manufacturing the SA-M receivers is 100% identical to Arsenal of Bulgaria, resulting in the same identical specified Rockwell hardness. Needless to say, the holidays have scattered most of our staff back to their homes and families for the Christmas and New Years celebrations. Our people work hard and we don’t begrudge them their holiday. So, at the moment we are not short staffed, we are unstaffed. The offices are empty except for those lucky few of us who have no life outside of this business. So, hopefully this clarification will hold everybody until the office and factory reopens after New Year, at which time I can elaborate further if necessary. . Thanks again for your interest and here’s to a great 2004 for you and yours. Feel free to post this info to any interested parties. Alexander DPC – Arsenal of Nevada" So it looks like this indeed is an isolated problem, and whether it's root cause is improper milling, improper heat treating, or some other reason, the average SAM series rifle is made to Arsenal of Bulgaria specifications, but like anything else humanly made in this world, a fluke will occasionally slip. I hope Robert gets his gun (or a replacement) soon :) HAPPY NEW YEAR to all! :) Jimmy (AKA: SSR99 & Original-SSR) |
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Sorry I haven't posted again on this thread, but I've had a nasty cold (not flu, at least not YET). Until Arsenal can get their hands on it and see what happened, all the conjecture in the world is meaningless. I, like Campy, do not think it has anything to do with a "soft" receiver, something else is going on. Give the guys at Arsenal a chance to make it right. Robert, thanks for sharing this, and please keep us informed with what happens. Happy New Year everyone! |
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I too lean towards it being something other than heat treating. In fact, in a post above I wrote the following: "I seriously doubt the problem is caused by a lack of heat treating, but maybe an out of spec dimension somewhere that is causing the unwanted harsh contact." With that said though, anything is possible (mistakes do happen). In any case, this situation, while not a great one for Robert, does open up questions (a healthy thing). Whatever the actual problem(s) may be with this gun, we have already gained from it. Robert never said it was definitely a heat treating problem, but only that it "could" be one. This possibility, slim as it may be, raised the question on what Arsenal Inc may be using for their heat treating specs. Arsenal-DPC (Alexander Wolfe) was nice enough to elaborate some more on that subject. While us regular Joe's may not have the inside scoop on what steel, milling dimensions, and heat treating are being used on Arsenal Inc milled receivers, we do now definitely know (thanks to Alexander) that the Arsenal Inc firm is following whatever specs the Bulgarians are using. Having that knowledge alone is enough reason to be excited about the Arsenal Inc products, since the milled Bulgarian receiver is held in very high regard in this country :) Yes, it seems like a fluke "may" have left the Arsenal Inc factory, but major concerns like these are probably going to continue being very rare situations :) While I wish this problem never occured to Roberts gun, it is nice that we somehow take something good from it all.........in this case the good is a clearer view on the Arsenal Nevada/Arsenal Bulgaria connection :) Also, I'm sure that they will soon enough correct the guns problem (or replace the gun entirely), and Robert will also be made happy. When all is said and done, "All's well, that ends well :) |
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One thing I learned is NEVER trust a gun until you have 1,000 rounds through it. I bought the Arsenal because everyone was saying it is the best. I never thought I would ever have a problem with it. If I hadn't been doing accuracy tests and burning up extra rounds because of scope mount problems, it would have been a long time before I got to the approx 600 round mark where the problem surfaced. I have some guns over 20 years old that have never had 600 rounds through them. It kind of shook my faith in firearms makers. Sure you can buy the best quality, but you always risk the chance you got a fluke. Maybe it's one out a million. Maybe not. I just read of recent Colts and Glocks that are junk, and they are not isolated incidents, but are appear to be common. Thanks to the internet and gun forums we can find out about it. All I can do to prevent getting stuck with a "fluke" is buy a crate of ammo with each gun and spend a lot of time at the range. |
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Looks like Robert is going to be taken care of. Arsenal is a company that does care about it's customers. www.k-varcorp.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1072&hl= |
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Hi folks: Attached you’ll find the preliminary results of our examination concerning the out of spec SA M5S receiver. Although everyone got to keep their jobs, there were some pretty harsh revisions to our already stringent production procedures. Personally I think the added protocols and QC revamp was a little overkill, considering the relatively small number of units involved in the face of the many thousands of units sold with no flaw. But, the hierarchy of Arsenal are some serious people and even one mistake is too many. So, here you have it Alex Arsenal DPC ___________________________________________________________ Re: Out of Spec SA M5S receivers General Statement: A notation error on a heat treating job order of the primary production run of SA-M5S caused one very important QC step to be listed as complete when it was not. This single missed procedure out of the customary hundreds of manufacturing steps incvolved led to a very small number (believed to be less than 5) of SA M5S or SA M5SG units to be potentially out of spec. [incorrect Rockwell hardness] There is no evidence that suggests that all of the five units mentioned were effected, but the possibility of all five units being out of spec exists. To further complicate matters, these five potentially out of spec receivers were an odd lot and therefore appended randomly to the SA-M5S production line. It should be noted that we have on hand two completed rifles with receivers from very same suspect batch, with exactly the same out of specification incorrect Rockwell hardness condition, identical to the Robert 2011 receiver. Both of these rifles have been pulled out of product inventory and reclassified as test rifles. Over 1200 rounds of standard ammunition have been fired through each without failure. Testing on these two reclassified SA M5S continues and we intend to test both to destruction to establish an accurate evaluation and to see just how many thousands of rounds it’s going to take to make them fail. This anomaly, caused by an uncommon operator error and subsequent dropped Quality Control procedure, is a singular event and NOT systematic in any way. The out of spec receiver irregularity is limited to the few potentially effected SA M5S or SA M5SG units listed above This isolated manufacturing error DOES NOT effect any other Arsenal Inc model products past or currant, including SA M7, SA M7G, SA M7S, SA M7SG, SA M5, SA M5G, SA RPK7, SA RPK-5S or any current manufacture SA M5S or SA M5SG. Arsenal Inc. recognizes and shares our customer concerns and will make all efforts to immediately remedy any effected products of this manufacturing error. Summary of ARSENAL’s resolution for this incident. A complete investigation of the causes of this deviation of standard procedure was completed by Arsenal’s Director of I & R. The cause has been determined as human error and responsible persons have been corrected. Although the error was quite costly in terms of man hours, warrantee remedy and resources, the fault was adjudicated as honest human error, not negligence. No disciplinary action was recommended. Based on the results of the investigation, corrective recommendations were made and addendums to standard procedure and company policy have been initiated. A new triple check quality control procedure with checklist has been initiated. In addition special testing equipment has been purchased and integrated into quality control protocols. A.K.Wolfe Arsenal DPC |
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