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Posted: 2/19/2006 3:09:27 PM EDT
HOUSE HEARS CONCERNS ABOUT RICHMOND GUN SHOW

On Wednesday, February 15, the U.S. House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security heard testimony from individuals affected by heavy-handed enforcement tactics of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) at a gun show in Richmond, Virginia last August.


According to the gun show organizer, Annette Gelles of Showmasters, dozens of BATFE and local law enforcement officers intrusively questioned dealers and customers, tried to discourage people from buying guns, and stopped show attendees on the roads after they left. In some cases, customers' lawfully purchased guns were confiscated, and returned only when the customers visited BATFE's office for more questioning. In other cases, local police officers visited gun buyers' homes to conduct "residency checks"-intrusive questioning of family members and even neighbors.


One show visitor, James Lalime, a private citizen who sometimes works for a dealer at the local gun shows, testified that he was interrogated by BATFE and other law enforcement personnel who accused him of dealing in firearms without a license. John White, a show exhibitor, licensed dealer, and former police officer, testified that he appreciates law enforcement officials' efforts to prevent illegal sales, but that enforcement activities went too far-especially in focusing on buyers who were women or members of minority groups. Suzanne McComas, an investigator for NRA-ILA, also testified and provided sworn affidavits from individuals who were singled out for BATFE attention, apparently on the basis of race or sex.


The subcommittee members were upset with what they heard. Subcommittee Chairman Howard Coble (R-NC) questioned whether the operations were "a proper allocation of resources," and suggested that "49 law enforcement officers could have found a better way to curb criminal activity in the Richmond area." Over the next few months, the same subcommittee expects to hold additional oversight hearings on this and other BATFE activities, including both citizen witnesses and BATFE officials. Watch the Grassroots Alert for more details as they're available.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 3:17:13 PM EDT
thats f,d up.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 3:24:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 3:46:24 PM EDT by shawn21]
Sounds to me like the atf are going too far, its a sad day when a man cannot even go to a gun show without some kind of hassle from the so called "People's Govt." Looks like a revolution is in the near distant future if the govt. keeps getting more strict on the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS! First taking 1/4 out on taxes every paycheck, now telling us what we can and cannot do thats already legal.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 3:31:44 PM EDT
They would do this all the time if it where not for some laws
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 4:07:50 PM EDT
The Governor of the state should step in and give those agents a major ass chewing.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:09:49 PM EDT
Too bad the gov is a freshly elected dem. He already has stated he wants to close the gunshow "loophole". Not freindly to the cause here.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:13:37 PM EDT
Wait till a democratic President is in office. I'm stocking up on guns and ammo now.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:16:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shawn21:
Sounds to me like the atf are going too far, its a sad day when a man cannot even go to a gun show without some kind of hassle from the so called "People's Govt." Looks like a revolution is in the near distant future if the govt. keeps getting more strict on the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS! First taking 1/4 out on taxes every paycheck, now telling us what we can and cannot do thats already legal.



Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 6:31:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 6:33:09 PM EDT by Bachelor_of_Science]
It only takes one to lead a revolt.

It's not surprising. Hell, my local post office has a major fit when I bring weapons there to be mailed off. It's like I'm some sort of terrorist. You should see the negativity. And that's just the postal service.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 6:50:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MST2:
The Governor of the state should step in and give those agents a major ass chewing.




Someone should loose there job too. That is jackbooted thug to the hilt. Who ever made the decision to send them to the show and hassle people should get axed from his or her position. People should take this very serious.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 7:23:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By MST2:
The Governor of the state should step in and give those agents a major ass chewing.




Someone should loose there job too. That is jackbooted thug to the hilt. Who ever made the decision to send them to the show and hassle people should get axed from his or her position. People should take this very serious.



Amen.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 7:28:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:

Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.



Pretty Bold statement...

So If I may ask..

Where do you stand?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 7:54:47 PM EDT
A true sunshine patriot with such a statement. Your kind always shows it's colors long before the metal hits the meat lacking even the slightest courage of your convictions as so fearful to even express a hint of belief in your fellow Americans. Our founding fathers were men just like you and I, yet did they risk anything less? Sure we are scared, the face of war has changed but you can bet that conditions today are very much the same as they were only two hundred years ago and the caliber of people, the fabric of this nation is still true now as it was then. So just know, there are men here who have sworn to defend our rights against all enemies both foreign and domestic when it comes down to it but you sir will not be among them because you are not with them now with such a despairing blanket statement. You may be a coward but some of us have sworn and are ready if that day is ever upon us. God help us all.

Creeper



Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:
Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:03:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:

Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.



Pretty Bold statement...

So If I may ask..

Where do you stand?



Is my bold statement not correct though?

Where do I stand? I am forced to do things, as it is, that I never wanted to do and choose whether to follow laws that are unconstitutional and have been that way for a very long time. No one stood up in 1934, 1968, 1986, 1989 nor 1994. So what makes anyone so sure that this the last straw?

Nobody will stand up the next time either.

I have a hard time justifying abandoning my family and unduly burdening them for a cause, that will no doubt bring devastating consequences upon them for little or no reward. The entire cause could be made forbidden at the stroke of a pen but that will never happen because that would rile the peasants. No, they will bleed us with a thousand cuts because none of them are egregious enough to cause draw much attention.

The 2A is a strange thing, your right is recognized by the constitution but to use it you must become a felon/murder (or assassin at best) of which relieves you of your right to the 2A. Sort of a Catch 22 huh? When the time comes for the shooting to start, the shooter will most likely be massacred and if there are any 2A rights left at all they will then be gone.

One must be careful when spouting off about revolution because the revolutionary of today is not going up against the crown, fighting gorilla style against Nepolenanic soldiers. You would be fighting your own countrymen with night vision and thermal imaging on COBRA gun ships and what are you going to face that with an AK you beat together in your garage, a FAL you screwed together or your favorite deer gun? You wouldn't last a day. So if you have a martyr complex go right ahead but don't be surprised when you are not successful.

If you were to overthrow the government, then what? What are you going to do? Who would be in charge and who would they answer to? Revolution is not such a simple thing as picking up a gun and popping of a most hated politician. A plan must be laid out to get any populace backing at all. The problem is if you lay out that plan your are most likely going to jail for that too.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:13:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
A true sunshine patriot with such a statement. Your kind always shows it's colors long before the metal hits the meat lacking even the slightest courage of your convictions as so fearful to even express a hint of belief in your fellow Americans. Our founding fathers were men just like you and I, yet did they risk anything less? Sure we are scared, the face of war has changed but you can bet that conditions today are very much the same as they were only two hundred years ago and the caliber of people, the fabric of this nation is still true now as it was then. So just know, there are men here who have sworn to defend our rights against all enemies both foreign and domestic when it comes down to it but you sir will not be among them because you are not with them now with such a despairing blanket statement. You may be a coward but some of us have sworn and are ready if that day is ever upon us. God help us all.

Creeper



Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:
Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.




Oh great patriot, where you in 1994 when the AWB came about, how about '89 or '86 were you on Capitol Hill calling for heads to roll? Nope. Face it donating to the NRA or GOA is not fighting the patriots fight, you are just paying some else to fight your battles.

Call me what you will. If you think I wouldn't defend this country or the what it is founded on you are wrong. What I won't do pander some armchair commando revolutionary wannabe who thinks that revolutions start with a six-pack a his trusty 30-06. That is what I am saying. You should pay attention to what you read not read what you want.

A revolution is coming but it may not be the revolution you are looking for and it may not be fought but who you think either.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:19:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartan28:
thats f,d up.



No - that's the new standard for SOP/business-as-usual. As long as the media & general public think it's OK, then it's "OK" - illegal or not.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:28:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By MST2:
The Governor of the state should step in and give those agents a major ass chewing.




Someone should loose there job too. That is jackbooted thug to the hilt. Who ever made the decision to send them to the show and hassle people should get axed from his or her position. People should take this very serious.



We're talking about federal employees here. Two high rises in NYC got toppled due to inocmpetence, & guess who got fired? No one.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 4:11:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 4:22:24 AM EDT by corny]

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:

Originally Posted By shawn21:
Sounds to me like the atf are going too far, its a sad day when a man cannot even go to a gun show without some kind of hassle from the so called "People's Govt." Looks like a revolution is in the near distant future if the govt. keeps getting more strict on the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS! First taking 1/4 out on taxes every paycheck, now telling us what we can and cannot do thats already legal.



Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.



If the BATF did in fact act that way that is a F'd up way to curb illegal gun sales.
REVOLUTION!?!? I don't know about you but I would rather live in the good ol' USA then anywhere in the world. Just the fact you can post those words and not worry about having a black van pull in front of your house at 3am and wisk you off to parts unknown says this is a great country. Take your "revolution" talk and think about it. The USA is the greatest place to live in the world. Dodging bullets is not too high on my list of things I want to do today.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:14:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigAKFan:
Wait till a democratic President is in office. I'm stocking up on guns and ammo now.



Sadly I must agree.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:28:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:

Originally Posted By BigAKFan:
Wait till a democratic President is in office. I'm stocking up on guns and ammo now.



Sadly I must agree.



Attention: Breaking News

You are currently in the 'Good Ole Days' of firearms.

Ammo is still cheap and available, guns are NOW available and there are more gun accessories and goodies. After being burnt in 1994 Magazines are all over the place. The UN is going to pretty much cut off future surplus ammo and parts kits through their smalls arms reductions. If you want an evil rifle I figure you have about 2.5-3 years to do it. I would stock up on mags personally because they will be the easiest thing to ban. If the liberals get back in power they are for sure going to get their pound of flesh.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:52:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
We're talking about federal employees here. Two high rises in NYC got toppled due to inocmpetence, & guess who got fired? No one.




Wrong. People did get fired, demoted, suspended, put under investigation or disciplined. Who? You must not have heard. The agents in several gov't agencies who raised the warning, who attempted to do investigations on the bombers and other terrorists in the U.S. Those who went to Congress and the media to testify about the incompetence of the managers in the Government. Those are the people who were fired, the ones that actually did their jobs and made their supervisors look bad.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:52:09 AM EDT
as much as i hate to say it, FAL there has a point. the things that are happening now are not going to cause anyone to up and turn on the idea of a revolution. Dispite how many people may call that it is needed, that is where it stops. people are not widely welcoming the thought of laying down their lives for this "minor step". we may disagree and consider this a violent oppresion of our rights- but most people do not. most people do not think that any violation warrants a revolution by any means. the invasion of privacy issues that are taking so many on the left off guard, are simultaneously being held widely by the right. this is much of the same with gun issues with the sides reversed. the only difference is that with guns, no one is avidly against gun control- one side is just more vocal about it. were this not to be true, in the past 6 years you would have seen the republicans reverse, correct, and do everything they could to put the gun legislation back on track and off of the stupid laws that are in place. The AWB was not renewed because no one pushed for it, this doesn't mean it wouldn't have been signed. Bush even said he would sign it if he saw it on his desk.

now, as to the issue- i think that its a terrible infringement and i hope that they take the BATF and local law enforcement agencies to court and rip them a new one. I hope that this starts a long line of radical change, but to be honest- here is what i expect to actually happen

i expect to hear crickets from most of america and muted yells from us.

there is nothing sunshine about what he said. he is making a simple statement of truth. the fact is that people are not willing to go and overturn the ease of life which we have. no one sees a problem except for the few. thats the reason nothing will happen. revolutions dont happen until people are uncomfortable or they percieve they are uncomfortable. So if you want a revolution, go get buddy buddy with your previously liberal enemy and begin to complain about encroachment of privacy and then explain to them how that issue is the same as the gun issue. Make friends and make them all angry. other than that, crickets is all you are going to hear.

you say hes a coward? i say he's got some common sense. tell you what, if some fully scale revolution breaks out in the next couple of years i'll send you a check to say i was wrong. just dont expect a letter from me anytime soon. we are a comfortable nation, and as such we will comfortablely have our rights stripped away.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:02:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 9:03:21 AM EDT by shawn21]
If are rights keep getting stripped from us, taxes keep rising, prices keep going up on goods, and the hourly worker doesnt get a raise to compensate for all of the inflation, what do you think thats going to lead to? Where will the govt. be when are families are starving?

You have to look a little deeper in the future, quit thinking 5 years from now. Big changes dont just happen over night, but they will happen in time.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:41:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shawn21:
If are rights keep getting stripped from us slowly , taxes keep rising who cares only those that work pay taxes , prices keep going up on goods prices have gone up since the beginning of time , and the hourly worker doesnt get a raise to compensate for all of the inflation nothing new here either, remember the 70's , what do you think thats going to lead to?Nothing, as long as the cable stays on. Where will the govt. be when are families are starving? The same place they were in the late 30's. Sitting back waiting to take us closer to Socialism. The public en mass will go for it because they were foolish and are now hungery.

You have to look a little deeper in the future, quit thinking 5 years from now. I have looked over 100 years into the past and have not seen the seeds for a coup. Know your history, you will know your future. Big changes dont just happen over night , but they will happen in time.My EXACT point

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:03:48 AM EDT
This should help............a way to fix and repair without getting shot at...............don't procrastinate and do what's RIGHT................ Fix the Problem NOW


Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:48:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:

Originally Posted By shawn21:
If are rights keep getting stripped from us slowly , taxes keep rising who cares only those that work pay taxes , prices keep going up on goods prices have gone up since the beginning of time , and the hourly worker doesnt get a raise to compensate for all of the inflation nothing new here either, remember the 70's , what do you think thats going to lead to?Nothing, as long as the cable stays on. Where will the govt. be when are families are starving? The same place they were in the late 30's. Sitting back waiting to take us closer to Socialism. The public en mass will go for it because they were foolish and are now hungery.

You have to look a little deeper in the future, quit thinking 5 years from now. I have looked over 100 years into the past and have not seen the seeds for a coup. Know your history, you will know your future. Big changes dont just happen over night , but they will happen in time.My EXACT point



bingo. nothing is happening. nothing but crickets.

i stand by my statement, if there is a revolution in the next few years as a result of stupid gun laws- i'll mail you a check.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:09:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:

Get off of it dude! The revolution is not going to start EVER. You, and everyone else is just going to take it because nobody wants to die first and where the rubber meets the road there are precious few people who are willing to die and put undue hardships on their families for a cause that most people are willing to just hand over.



Pretty Bold statement...

So If I may ask..

Where do you stand?



Is my bold statement not correct though?

Where do I stand? I am forced to do things, as it is, that I never wanted to do and choose whether to follow laws that are unconstitutional and have been that way for a very long time. No one stood up in 1934, 1968, 1986, 1989 nor 1994. So what makes anyone so sure that this the last straw?

Nobody will stand up the next time either.

I have a hard time justifying abandoning my family and unduly burdening them for a cause, that will no doubt bring devastating consequences upon them for little or no reward. The entire cause could be made forbidden at the stroke of a pen but that will never happen because that would rile the peasants. No, they will bleed us with a thousand cuts because none of them are egregious enough to cause draw much attention.

The 2A is a strange thing, your right is recognized by the constitution but to use it you must become a felon/murder (or assassin at best) of which relieves you of your right to the 2A. Sort of a Catch 22 huh? When the time comes for the shooting to start, the shooter will most likely be massacred and if there are any 2A rights left at all they will then be gone.

One must be careful when spouting off about revolution because the revolutionary of today is not going up against the crown, fighting gorilla style against Nepolenanic soldiers. You would be fighting your own countrymen with night vision and thermal imaging on COBRA gun ships and what are you going to face that with an AK you beat together in your garage, a FAL you screwed together or your favorite deer gun? You wouldn't last a day. So if you have a martyr complex go right ahead but don't be surprised when you are not successful.

If you were to overthrow the government, then what? What are you going to do? Who would be in charge and who would they answer to? Revolution is not such a simple thing as picking up a gun and popping of a most hated politician. A plan must be laid out to get any populace backing at all. The problem is if you lay out that plan your are most likely going to jail for that too.




To condense what he said and that I agree with Americans are apathetic lazy and unmotivated furthermore fighting for a principle is as likely hell freezing. In a revolution you must be willing to overtyly kill your Police and National Guard (Your NEIGHBORS) and eventually AD Military as they will be the enemy furthermore you must have public support! When speaking of public support does the term SHEEP come to mind? Thought so too! I have a friend who grew up in Bosnia now Croatia fought thier for four years against the Serbs through as close to hell as I can imagine. He will readily tell you most able bodied men would not get the will to fight till the Serbs came and handed them a shovel then it was to late.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:50:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akrado:
Too bad the gov is a freshly elected dem. He already has stated he wants to close the gunshow "loophole". Not freindly to the cause here.


Someone should send the gov this short Flash animation movie so he knows just what the fuck "The Gunshow Loophole" actually is.

www.flashbunny.org/content/loophole.html

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:52:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By MST2:
The Governor of the state should step in and give those agents a major ass chewing.




Someone should loose there job too. That is jackbooted thug to the hilt. Who ever made the decision to send them to the show and hassle people should get axed from his or her position. People should take this very serious hold *their* government accountable.


Fixed.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 12:08:53 PM EDT
nothing is going to happen. There will be more talk and no action.
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