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Posted: 2/7/2006 11:27:52 AM EDT
I just got a krink build back yesterday and fired it today. Had a nice albeit scarry experience. Loaded a mag, locked it in, pulled the trigger and two rounds fired. Tried again and two rounds. I took it apart and realized what is happening. One round is fired when the trigger is pulled back and another round is fired when the trigger returns forward. The trigger is a Red Star Arms adjustable type and I don't have the paperwork for it so I don't know how to adjust it.

If I remember correctly, the BATFE states that full auto is when more than one round is fired on a single stroke of the trigger. Also, is this even safe to fire in its current condition? Anyway, I think I will just replace it with a spare G2 I have at the house and forget about, just wanted your thoughts.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:33:14 AM EDT
probably safe to fire if the bolt is locked when the second round fires.

But it's illegal as hell. Best to fix it ASAP after enjoying a mag worth :devil:
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:33:32 AM EDT
How many rounds did you end up firing?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:34:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:43:04 AM EDT
Interesting....

(sorry, but I can't get it to resize)

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:55:29 AM EDT
Hmmmmmm vetty vetty eeenteresting.
Dangerous as hell, but interesting.

Basically you are committing to 2 shots, you HAVE to fire the second round or keep finger on trigger
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:03:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:33:40 PM EDT
Thanks for posting that letter, need to keep that just in case.

I only fired off one mag worth mainly b/c I was affraid of it blowing up on me. Should I be worried about my safety when shooting it?


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:44:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 1:50:21 PM EDT by yekimak]

Originally Posted By nugentgl:
Thanks for posting that letter, need to keep that just in case.

I only fired off one mag worth mainly b/c I was affraid of it blowing up on me. Should I be worried about my safety when shooting it?





The nice thing about minis is that the ass end of the firing pin rotates with the bolt, only lining up to be able to be hit with the hammer when fully in battery, ala' Garand. I do not think that the AK can fire out of battery either, but it would be worthwhile to double check and make sure that the hammer does not make contact with the firing pin until it is completely locked.

Post video

ETA:



Ken@RSA is gonna wonder why all the orders all of the sudden.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:02:24 PM EDT
I think the AK can fire when out of battery, the SKS can't.

This is because of the autosear. No, not one like for H&K rifles, I mean the special modification to the trigger group. Take an SKS apart- see that thin black piece of metal that sticks up? That is the "autosear", or "safety" sear. The hammer can not be released when this is in the down position, thus as long as the bolt is back and pushing it down some the hammer cannot be released. This insures that the gun fires only when the bolt is closed.

The AK type rifles do not have this, because on AK rifles, this is a property of the "full auto" trigger group that has to be removed. ATF stupidity.

Now, in all reality, your AK is not likely to fire when out of battery, but a good look at the overall design will tell you definately yay or nay.

Correct me if I am wrong on the autosear issue. I read about it awhile back and am not sure if I remember it totally correctly.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:25:17 PM EDT
The trigger group needs to be adjusted and fitted. Red Star's are not drop in trigger groups. Mario www.pieceofhistoryfirearms.com
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:46:54 PM EDT
Can someone do that to a regular AK, say a Yugoslavian underfolder, to make it fire 2 rounds like that?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:49:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q-gunner2:
Can someone do that to a regular AK, say a Yugoslavian underfolder, to make it fire 2 rounds like that?



Don't even think about it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:41:54 PM EDT
had something similar happen to me the other day. I just installed a trigger group, and somehow one of the spring arms got hooked on the hook, well every now and then it would slip off either causing a misfire (scary) or a double tap (even more scary)

a very dangerouse situation to say the least. fortunately, easily fixed.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:53:59 PM EDT
Hmmm, the last part of that letter makes it sound like everyone that bought a kit with FA parts is in possession of a 'machine gun'.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:23:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clange:
Hmmm, the last part of that letter makes it sound like everyone that bought a kit with FA parts is in possession of a 'machine gun'.

'zactly what I was thinkin'. Does sound very much like it. Madtechcool
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:38:38 AM EDT
I've had that happen before with an AR when the disconnector notch on the hammer fractured. Its a timing issue. The disconnector grabs the hammer when the bolt cycles. When you release the trigger, the hammer is supposed to catch on the trigger sear surface. If the disconnector releases the hammer a fraction early, it will not catch on the trigger and you'll get the 2nd shot on release of the trigger.

If you're sloppy with your trigger release, i.e. finger off immediately after shooting, then you'll get a two shot burst effect.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:41:08 PM EDT
The modification to the Mini 14 is a modification to the actual gun. They used to sell a "rocker trigger" For AKs that fires one round on the pull and push stroke therefore one round on each stroke of the trigger.......Yes it is legal. Someone on this board has one. (And needs to relenquish the ownersip to me immediately... Atleast to let me get some measurements and make a few of my own.) ATF states that as long as the firearm fires 1 round with each movement of the trigger. I am not saying what you have is illegal or legal...Just clearing up that that mini 14 letter is of a different breed and is a special case ONLY to the mini 14 due to a internal modification not a trigger bolt on.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:46:25 PM EDT
Thanks for all the help guys. I am still wondering about the safety of this trigger, so until I can do more testing, I have removed it and replaced it with a G2.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:49:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clange:
Hmmm, the last part of that letter makes it sound like everyone that bought a kit with FA parts is in possession of a 'machine gun'.



That's always been my understanding -- that if you own a FA trigger group and the gun it fits into, you posess a machine gun.

I'm pretty sure I remember a guy in cali getting busted a few years back for that. Wife ratted him out and they found FA trigger groups in his safe deposit box. I think they also found some grenades too.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:13:47 PM EDT

...and they found FA trigger groups in his safe deposit box. I think they also found some grenades too.


Somehow i'm thinkin' that the FA trigger parts are the least of his worries...
What a knucklehead.

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:02:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kyarguy:

...and they found FA trigger groups in his safe deposit box. I think they also found some grenades too.


Somehow i'm thinkin' that the FA trigger parts are the least of his worries...
What a knucklehead.

KyARGuy



Yeah, if I remember right it was actually the guy's wife who turned him in.

Hell hath no fury...
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:30:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By clange:
Hmmm, the last part of that letter makes it sound like everyone that bought a kit with FA parts is in possession of a 'machine gun'.



That's always been my understanding -- that if you own a FA trigger group and the gun it fits into, you posess a machine gun.

I'm pretty sure I remember a guy in cali getting busted a few years back for that. Wife ratted him out and they found FA trigger groups in his safe deposit box. I think they also found some grenades too.


So anyone that owns an AK and buys a parts kit now is in possession of a machine gun?

Plus, you dont have a 'gun it fits into' because the parts wont fit in an unmodified gun.

Plus, BATF insists parts kits are for repair or replacement. To repair or replace something you have to own the gun in the first place. So they try and say you can only use the parts to repair a gun, but if you own a gun and buy the kit you now possess a machine gun? This doesnt add up.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:34:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 10:47:18 PM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By clange:
So anyone that owns an AK and buys a parts kit now is in possession of a machine gun?

Plus, you dont have a 'gun it fits into' because the parts wont fit in an unmodified gun.

Plus, BATF insists parts kits are for repair or replacement. To repair or replace something you have to own the gun in the first place. So they try and say you can only use the parts to repair a gun, but if you own a gun and buy the kit you now possess a machine gun? This doesnt add up.



You make good points. I'm not really educated on the subject so I'll shut up now, but like I said my recollection is that owning a FA trigger group and the gun it's designed for is a no-no.

In particular the 'spare parts' thing always concerned me about that.

ETA: ATF says a machine gun is " Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person; "

I take that to mean that if you have a lower, trigger group, upper with barrel, and the right bcg, you have a machine gun on your hands.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 11:59:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 12:04:25 AM EDT by clange]

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
You make good points. I'm not really educated on the subject so I'll shut up now


My intent is not to debate it, because I simply dont know either. I'd just like to know, specifically, what is illegal. If an AK in the corner and a parts kit in the closet is a machine gun, then theres a lot of us out there that could be busted for 'possessing' a machine gun.


The ATF says:
" Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person; "


And what does 'assembled' legally mean? Does it mean parts can just drop in, or does cutting holes and stuff in a receiver constitute 'assembly'?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:20:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clange:
And what does 'assembled' legally mean? Does it mean parts can just drop in, or does cutting holes and stuff in a receiver constitute 'assembly'?



There's the meat of the question.

I was referring to a more or less drop in assembly because that's what I was told is illegal.

It seems to me that if you have to machine the parts, you're going beyond assembling. If they were going to define it that way, they could say that anybody who has a receiver and raw steel owns a machine gun because we could machine an auto fire control group at any moment.

We need one of the arfcom legal geeks to speak up on this on, I think.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:48:24 AM EDT
The semi-auto AK platform requires extensive modifications (holes drilled, lower rail etc.) to install the parts necessary to create a machine gun. Because of this, the ATF does NOT prohibit the posession of "Full auto parts" even if you posess the rifle. Without these mods, they are literally just scrap metal and of no use. Some states (ie WA, IL) have laws prohibiting posession of these parts with or without the actual weapon so beware.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:00:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nugentgl:
Thanks for posting that letter, need to keep that just in case.

I only fired off one mag worth mainly b/c I was affraid of it blowing up on me. Should I be worried about my safety when shooting it?





No, because the firing pin doesn't protrude until the bolt is locked and the round is chambered. The hammer is basically riding the back of the bolt all the way foward until lock up and then it strikes the firing pin so there's really no danger of explosion. It's sort of a built in safety.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 8:03:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
The semi-auto AK platform requires extensive modifications (holes drilled, lower rail etc.) to install the parts necessary to create a machine gun. Because of this, the ATF does NOT prohibit the posession of "Full auto parts" even if you posess the rifle. Without these mods, they are literally just scrap metal and of no use. Some states (ie WA, IL) have laws prohibiting posession of these parts with or without the actual weapon so beware.




Thanks for the clarification.

But was I told correctly that on other platforms such as the AR which require fewer mods, that posession of a full auto FCG and a receiver constitute a machine gun?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:32:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
[Thanks for the clarification.

But was I told correctly that on other platforms such as the AR which require fewer mods, that posession of a full auto FCG and a receiver constitute a machine gun?



You are EXACTLY right!

Back in the day, guys were very casual about doing "temporary" conversions to their Colts (and others) by swapping in and out RDIASs and Links and the like. This is also the reason new open bolt guns were done away with.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:04:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

You are EXACTLY right!

Back in the day, guys were very casual about doing "temporary" conversions to their Colts (and others) by swapping in and out RDIASs and Links and the like. This is also the reason new open bolt guns were done away with.




Ok, that's what I thought.

Something that really disturbs me about that, besides the obvious, is this: What if I have a registered NFA M16 and an ar-15, and I buy a spare auto FCG for my M16. Does that mean I have a legal machine gun and an illegal machine gun, or does that mean I have legit spare parts for my m16?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:21:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Something that really disturbs me about that, besides the obvious, is this: What if I have a registered NFA M16 and an ar-15, and I buy a spare auto FCG for my M16. Does that mean I have a legal machine gun and an illegal machine gun, or does that mean I have legit spare parts for my m16?



Judgement call. Most of my M-16 owning buds sold off their ARs once they aquired their xferables just to avoid any possible conflict. A couple didn't and they aren't worried.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:55:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

You are EXACTLY right!

Back in the day, guys were very casual about doing "temporary" conversions to their Colts (and others) by swapping in and out RDIASs and Links and the like. This is also the reason new open bolt guns were done away with.




Ok, that's what I thought.

Something that really disturbs me about that, besides the obvious, is this: What if I have a registered NFA M16 and an ar-15, and I buy a spare auto FCG for my M16. Does that mean I have a legal machine gun and an illegal machine gun, or does that mean I have legit spare parts for my m16?




If you piss in the ATF's Wheaties enough, that's exactly what it means.. But, I belive, as long as they do not have a hard on for you, you should be OK..
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:59:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:
If you piss in the ATF's Wheaties enough, that's exactly what it means.. But, I belive, as long as they do not have a hard on for you, you should be OK..



That's what I was askeered of. I don't trust them, of course, so if I owned a registered M16 that would be enough for me to either not have spare parts or to lose all of my AR-15s.

I would think they'd have a real hard time claiming that the FCG in your M16 combined with a stripped AR lower is an illegal machine gun, but spare parts...wouldn't wanna chance it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:53:14 PM EDT
The thing that makes the gun illegal is being "Redilly convertable" not owning the parts. You can own all the full auto parts in the world...Hell you can buy them at gunshows.....But dont be in possession of and AK with 3 holes in it. Thats what makes the difference. And you cant just drop a full auto trigger group into an Ar and go full speed, this would also take modifications. Can you easily convert and AK to shoot full auto? Yes. I have hed to pleasure to compare FULL auto and non full auto AKs side by side. There are VERY few differences in the 2 guns. And the 3rd hole is the biggest one. Would you be smart for trying to convert it? HELL NO. Unless you like gettin buttraped for 5-10.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 4:54:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:
If you piss in the ATF's Wheaties enough, that's exactly what it means.. But, I belive, as long as they do not have a hard on for you, you should be OK..



That's what I was askeered of. I don't trust them, of course, so if I owned a registered M16 that would be enough for me to either not have spare parts or to lose all of my AR-15s.

I would think they'd have a real hard time claiming that the FCG in your M16 combined with a stripped AR lower is an illegal machine gun, but spare parts...wouldn't wanna chance it.



I think the one the ATF would be reallly apeshit over would be the combo of M1 Carbine + NFA registered M2 Carbine + spare full auto parts for M2 Carbine...
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:29:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 762bodydropper:
The modification to the Mini 14 is a modification to the actual gun. They used to sell a "rocker trigger" For AKs that fires one round on the pull and push stroke therefore one round on each stroke of the trigger.......Yes it is legal. Someone on this board has one. (And needs to relenquish the ownersip to me immediately... Atleast to let me get some measurements and make a few of my own.)

Measurements / plans for us all....
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:52:09 PM EDT
I think that you'll find that lately the ATF has been more concerned about dark people with fertilizer than guys with varying combinations of parts. Its still against the law, and the atf are still present, but alot of the stories you hear are a combination of rumors and stuff that happened years ago.

Its pretty simple. Don't do anything stupid and they will never hassle you. I am more worried about the IRS.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:13:11 PM EDT
My Rommy build did the same thing at first with a RSA FCG. Just tighten down the set screw for pull weight until it is semi again. More than likely what is happening is that when the first shot is fired, the gun recoils rearward, then due to you grip on the weapon, the gun moves back into it's origional position. With your finger still on the trigger, the forward movement causes the trigger to hit your finger again and fire. Sounds like you are bump firing.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:48:43 PM EDT
there was a guy a while back that forced this issue by modding his Mini14 to fire ont eh return of trigger as well. G-d bless him, he was right and they had to admit it.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:40:22 PM EDT
Anyone know where to get one of those things where it shoots one shot on trigger pull/one on trigger release? I sure would like to get my hands on one of those.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:08:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarshReality:
Anyone know where to get one of those things where it shoots one shot on trigger pull/one on trigger release? I sure would like to get my hands on one of those.



+1
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:17:45 AM EDT
This is interesting. So it's possible to legally get a double-tapping rifle?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:08:43 AM EDT
That trigger was made in the 80s the made em for the ar and the ak.. I knew a guy that had 2 AKs with them when I was younger......probably 18 or so years ago, he was a friend of my parents. Being that I hadnt seen one in so long and I was so young when i did see them and heard him talking about them, I thought maybe I was wrong in the interpretation, untill someone posted one on here. You have to take your original trigger guard off and replace the pistol grip with this "mechanism" The trigger guard covers your whole hand and the trigger kinda looks like a backwards S You put your index finger in the top and your middle finger in the bottom, then proceed to rock and rollBut if I remember correctly. It is not just pull and release, it is pull and push to make the trigger work. I sont thing I want something that fires when i let off the trigger. That means you can fire just one round, but always in pairs. And if you shoot and recoil causes you to lose the trigger, or you fall or anything else makes your finger come off the trigger.....you have just let off a round from an uncontrolled weapon.......NOT SAFE AT ALL!
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:42:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 11:43:15 AM EDT by HarshReality]

Originally Posted By 762bodydropper:
That trigger was made in the 80s the made em for the ar and the ak.. I knew a guy that had 2 AKs with them when I was younger......probably 18 or so years ago, he was a friend of my parents. Being that I hadnt seen one in so long and I was so young when i did see them and heard him talking about them, I thought maybe I was wrong in the interpretation, untill someone posted one on here. You have to take your original trigger guard off and replace the pistol grip with this "mechanism" The trigger guard covers your whole hand and the trigger kinda looks like a backwards S You put your index finger in the top and your middle finger in the bottom, then proceed to rock and rollBut if I remember correctly. It is not just pull and release, it is pull and push to make the trigger work. I sont thing I want something that fires when i let off the trigger. That means you can fire just one round, but always in pairs. And if you shoot and recoil causes you to lose the trigger, or you fall or anything else makes your finger come off the trigger.....you have just let off a round from an uncontrolled weapon.......NOT SAFE AT ALL!hr


I'll take the chance. hippie.gif

Anyone feel free to PM me if someone finds a source for double tapping trigger groups or pistol grips or what the hell ever.

I want one.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:10:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
This is interesting. So it's possible to legally get a double-tapping rifle?



I'm planning on getting my first AK this coming month, and while my more immediate concerns would be to fix any trigger slap on my AK if it has some, later on I would be interested in getting a trigger group that would safely allow one round to fire on the pull and one round to fire on the release.

As for the legallity yeah, the ATF says it is not a machine gun, however I guess everyone would need to check thier own state laws to make sure thier states dont consider it a machine gun.

FWIW I saw some other thread a while back in GD, talking about Texas law. In Texas its only considered a machine gun if it fires more than 2 rounds when the trigger is pulled.
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