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Posted: 12/16/2005 3:30:58 PM EDT
I said the Beryl is better, stated why and no M4 Kool-aiders want to argue back.....
www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=418838
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:57:50 PM EDT
I agree with what you said save for this
"however it pays for it with one of the worlds most un-reliable/crappy mags. "

Are you saying AR Mags are un-reliable and "crappy"
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:03:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
I agree with what you said save for this
"however it pays for it with one of the worlds most un-reliable/crappy mags. "

Are you saying AR Mags are un-reliable and "crappy"

Do you now anyone who doesn't?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:36:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
I agree with what you said save for this
"however it pays for it with one of the worlds most un-reliable/crappy mags. "

Are you saying AR Mags are un-reliable and "crappy"

Do you now anyone who doesn't?



Actually just you apparently......
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:56:39 PM EDT
It's quiet around here tonight Jake. Everyone must be out Christmas shopping.
Try some getting some well worn AR mags.
Load them and then drop em, feed lips down, onto concrete and then tell us how many rounds pop out and how good the mag works with bent lips.
Thin aluminum dosen't last long in any rough environment.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:04:54 PM EDT
If AR mags were so crappy an unreliable they would not have been in service for over 40 years in the US and countless other countries. Magazines in the military are expendable and are not expected to last forever anyway. Also AR mags are easier to insert and remove from a weapon than an AK mag. WHile I like AKs much more than ARs, Iam not about to say that ARs are crap. Theya re fine rifles, I just like the reliability of AKs more. AK mags are much sturdier than most AR mags, but AR mags work just fine.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:07:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xcibes:
If AR mags were so crappy an unreliable they would not have been in service for over 40 years in the US and countless other countries. Magazines in the military are expendable and are not expected to last forever anyway. Also AR mags are easier to insert and remove from a weapon than an AK mag. WHile I like AKs much more than ARs, Iam not about to say that ARs are crap. Theya re fine rifles, I just like the reliability of AKs more. AK mags are much sturdier than most AR mags, but AR mags work just fine.


Could not have said it any better myself.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:13:00 PM EDT
Can't we all just get along?

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:19:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
It's quiet around here tonight Jake. Everyone must be out Christmas shopping.
Try some getting some well worn AR mags.
Load them and then drop em, feed lips down, onto concrete and then tell us how many rounds pop out and how good the mag works with bent lips.
Thin aluminum dosen't last long in any rough environment.




I have some well worn aluminum AR mags and while they are scary, they work just fine...

If you do not like aluminum mags for the AR you gan get some steel mags made in Britain or polymer ones made in Israel, and they all work fine as well.

That said, the beryl is a nice weapon. I have not used one so I cannot say if it is better than the M4, but I woud rather have a 20" A2 or A3 to an M4..barrel length DOES matter when using SS109 ammo. M4 looks cool but 20" give you more energy
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:21:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:

Originally Posted By xcibes:
If AR mags were so crappy an unreliable they would not have been in service for over 40 years in the US and countless other countries. Magazines in the military are expendable and are not expected to last forever anyway. Also AR mags are easier to insert and remove from a weapon than an AK mag. WHile I like AKs much more than ARs, Iam not about to say that ARs are crap. Theya re fine rifles, I just like the reliability of AKs more. AK mags are much sturdier than most AR mags, but AR mags work just fine.


Could not have said it any better myself.


Well, for the first two years I was in the service we had a lot of well used mags that would double feed, often. The armorer had an entire box full of them.
New ones work OK. So What. Most new things work good as long as there aren't any major defects. That's not my point.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:24:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lumberjacker:
Can't we all just get along?





That wouldn't be any fun.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:43:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:

Originally Posted By xcibes:
If AR mags were so crappy an unreliable they would not have been in service for over 40 years in the US and countless other countries. Magazines in the military are expendable and are not expected to last forever anyway. Also AR mags are easier to insert and remove from a weapon than an AK mag. WHile I like AKs much more than ARs, Iam not about to say that ARs are crap. Theya re fine rifles, I just like the reliability of AKs more. AK mags are much sturdier than most AR mags, but AR mags work just fine.


Could not have said it any better myself.


Well, for the first two years I was in the service we had a lot of well used mags that would double feed, often. The armorer had an entire box full of them.
New ones work OK. So What. Most new things work good as long as there aren't any major defects. That's not my point.


I still have old Colt GI 20 rounders with metal followers in them.....

The work 100% loaded to 20 rounds. Same springs too.

Your Point is void, there is No Major defect in AR mag.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:44:20 PM EDT
Well I will say that the old black followers are prone to that (Double Feed) , so I will give you that. Green followers are OK.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:57:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:12:47 PM EDT
what I don't understand is if the M-16/AR-15 platform is so great why did the xm-8 come within a hair of replacing it (with the same round) and now the SCAR is going to finish the job. for every horror story that an AR fan is told, he says 'well mine work just fine'. yet i've seen guys say that after i've WITNESSED a major problem they've had. am I the only one who's been to a match or a practical class and seen all of the problems ARs are prone to when you start running a few mags through them? plus when you tout your accuracy claims you're talking about 20" barrels, when 90% of you have 16" or even 14.5" barrels. you guys just aren't fessing up. 1 or 2 MOA better is not worth a round that weighs half as much or less and doesn't go bang nearly as reliably.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:20:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:20:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
Well I will say that the old black followers are prone to that (Double Feed) , so I will give you that. Green followers are OK.



OK.
That's your choice of words.

Lets go at this from another angle.

Name a detachable box magazine that is known to be more reliable than the AK's.
None I know of.

Name a detachable box magazine that is known to be less reliable than the AR's.
I can think of only one. The FRENCH WWI Chau-chaut (SP?).
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:22:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:26:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

what I don't understand is if the M-16/AR-15 platform is so great why did the xm-8 come within a hair of replacing it


It never got close, don't think for a minute it did.


Agreed


(with the same round) and now the SCAR is going to finish the job.


I have heard this for 20 years now. Google on the ACR program.
And you will for another 20 years until ray-guns come on line.
The US .GOV has too many AR guns and spare parts in stock to make it cost effective to replace the AR series with anything less that a quantum leap in firepower.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:28:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Ask something hard.

What's the secret of cold fusion?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:35:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:43:25 PM EDT
Damn. All this time I've been useing FRESCA.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:00:27 PM EDT
Ill as soon stick my weiner in a meat grinder than post in that thread.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:12:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SVT:
Ill as soon stick my weiner in a meat grinder than post in that thread.



Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:47:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

what I don't understand is if the M-16/AR-15 platform is so great why did the xm-8 come within a hair of replacing it


It never got close, don't think for a minute it did.


Agreed


(with the same round) and now the SCAR is going to finish the job.


I have heard this for 20 years now. Google on the ACR program.
And you will for another 20 years until ray-guns come on line.
The US .GOV has too many AR guns and spare parts in stock to make it cost effective to replace the AR series with anything less that a quantum leap in firepower.



well regardless of the fact that much of the Army is like any other gov agency packed full of beancounters who are resistant to change- the need is there and the guys who CAN make a change ARE- SOCOM. 6.8 and .50 beo are still gaining popularity too. our guys deserve better than having to fanatically sit around cleaning their rifles, fearing that the inevitable jam is going to get them killed.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:00:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:07:14 AM EDT
As someone who spent 3 years as an 11B, I can say that there is a big difference between being told (yelled at, same thing) by the PLT SGT to clean my rifle and having to clean it just to be sure it will work.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:13:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:14:52 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:01:44 AM EDT
whoa there koolaid drinker, I ran and maintained a hell of a lot more complex systems than an AR while i was in the Navy. one thing I learned good was that reliability was the most important element of a piece of equipment. why you and the Army think that's secondary is completely beyond me.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:37:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 11:51:05 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:15:56 PM EDT
strawman, like when i said we should use spears?

navy- ship should go. take out old boilers, put in nice warm pile of uranium. add some electronics and leave everything else, works great like before.

army- gun should go bang. take m-1 and m-14, give them to 3rd world countries. totally redesign a new rifle, make it dainty aluminum that fouls it's own chamber, make it fire 22LR with more powder. not come out so good, after 40 years still getting lots of complaints.

the spec on ARs is too tight, a different design could lose 1 or 2 MOA (and how often is anyone going to miss that?) and improve reliability in poor conditions dramatically. having a long list of "well just as long as you do X, Y, and Z it will run fine" doesn't cut it. yes our troops can do it, no they shouldn't have to.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:34:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 1:35:05 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:38:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

the spec on ARs is too tight, a different design could lose 1 or 2 MOA (and how often is anyone going to miss that?) and improve reliability in poor conditions dramatically. having a long list of "well just as long as you do X, Y, and Z it will run fine" doesn't cut it. yes our troops can do it, no they shouldn't have to.



Really? Since you know so much about the TDP, where could the specs be loosened to enhance reliability?



RIF. KISS. WTF. OMG.

SIG550. FNC.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:40:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:27:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Name a detachable box magazine that is known to be less reliable than the AR's.


Carbine, .30 caliber M-1.

Sten.

M-3 Grease gun.


Ask something hard.


Add Bren machine gun to the list as well.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:28:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 4:30:22 PM EDT by JaketheSnake]

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
Damn. All this time I've been useing FRESCA.


Club Soda

Works on Everything!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:38:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
I agree with what you said save for this
"however it pays for it with one of the worlds most un-reliable/crappy mags. "

Are you saying AR Mags are un-reliable and "crappy"

Do you now anyone who doesn't?




If you don't like the aluminium mags the go spend the money on H&K mags,made of steel,though they run in the $60 range.ouch!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:09:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maggart:

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
I agree with what you said save for this
"however it pays for it with one of the worlds most un-reliable/crappy mags. "

Are you saying AR Mags are un-reliable and "crappy"

Do you now anyone who doesn't?




If you don't like the aluminium mags the go spend the money on H&K mags,made of steel,though they run in the $60 range.ouch!



While perhaps not as fancy as the HK mags, the English mags are also made of steel and are much stronger and heavier than the aluminum mags
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:55:02 AM EDT
I have a colt 20" rifle with a detachable carry handle... pretty basic... yeah some times there are magazine problems and I have had to make it a point to find good ones. that said it runs like a champ. I have put thousends of rounds down range and could count the number of malfunctions I have had on one hand. and I can say I have tracked all of those down to shitty magazines.
I used to have an SAR-1 I tinkered with it alot and I just could not make it run good. I sold it and got an Arsenal SA-M7 carbine.... I like it just as much as I like my colt AR-15. it runs like a champ.

I say bolth the AR-15 and the the AK-47 are great rifles that have there pros and cons
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