Fortier tripping over himself over the Krebs AK74 - should I go for it? UPDATE P4 NO WAY! - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fortier tripping over himself over the Krebs AK74 - should I go for it? UPDATE P4 NO WAY! (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 9/6/2005 10:30:46 AM EDT

[#1]

how anyone would bubbaize a AK, and call it a "custom" then charge a laugable price for it, is beyond me......but then there are people out there that think a chrome plated AK looks "cool"...... so I guess as long as you have people who's taste is in their ass, people will buy these over-priced bubba trailer AKs.

it's a shame that 2 great AK receivers are made into bubba specials

Posted: 9/6/2005 11:35:41 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
and rguns aren't gonna screw me?

I wouldn't count on it my friend.

we're playing with double negatives here.... are they worth dealing with or not?

They were easy to deal with on my first KTR and seemed fine today when I bought my second one from them. It should ship today and be at my dealer Friday so we'll see.

Posted: 9/6/2005 11:46:29 AM EDT

[#3]

From the Krebs website:

For someone looking for a quality Kalashnikov rifle or a precision M1911 pistol I highly recommend Marc Krebs of Krebs Custom, Inc. Nationally known for building superb M1911 IPSC pistols, Marc's work has done nothing but impress me. A graduate of Lassen College in northern California, he studied there under Master Gunsmith Bob Dunlap. Led by his interest in the design and function of military small arms, Marc produced a 9mm carbine while in school. Using only a barrel and a few screws he designed and fabricated a reliable carbine from scratch, even winding his own springs. From this first school project he has built an impressive career as a gunsmith.

Shortly after graduating in 1984, Marc began building and customizing the venerable M1911 .45 for carry and competition. His pistols became well known nationally due to the quality of his work. Also known for innovation, he developed the attractive yet functional "Snakeskin" front strap on M1911's. No less a company than Smith&Wesson has copied this on their own their own Custom Shop Performance pistols. He continues to produce an M1911 pistol that is suitable for IPSC, IDPA, or personal protection. Using a Chip McCormick frame and slide, he builds the Pointman. This is a pistol that you can not only compete with, but also trust your life to, all without costing you $2,500.00. In a world of extremely expensive, finicky, and temperamental M1911's the Krebs Pointman is a breath of fresh air.

Yet while a noted and gifted pistolsmith, as of late Marc Krebs has returned to his original interest, military small arms. Venturing where few tread, he exhaustively studied and researched the designs of the famous Russian weapons designer Mikhail Kalashnikov. While studying the design of the AK series of assault rifles, Marc became duly impressed by its rugged simplicity and legendary reliability. However, like most, what he desired was an actual Russian AK, and not a foreign knockoff. With none available he set out to produce a rifle that met current Russian military specifications, yet would be legal to own in the United States.

Using Russian Saiga hunting rifles as the foundation he produces a model identical to the current Russian AK-103 7.62x39mm assault rifle. The Saiga is basically an AK100 series rifle with sporter modifications to start with. Marc makes the required alterations, using brand new parts that meet or exceed the quality of the Russian originals, to conform to the letter of American law. His rifles feature an exact copy of the current issue Russian muzzle brake CNC machined from 4130 bar stock, the correct cleaning rod brackets, the latest issue synthetic furniture with heat shields in the forearm, and a scope rail on the side of the receiver. His workmanship combined with the high quality of the Russian Izhmash Arsenal result in a Kalashnikov rifle without peer. After using two of his rifles extensively and training with them at the prestigious SIGARMS Academy, I came away very impressed with his product. Fit and finish is excellent, accuracy from the chrome lined hammer forged barrels is among the best I have ever seen from a member of the Kalashnikov family. Reliability through thousands of rounds of FMJ, SP, and HPBT ammunition was flawless despite the weapons never being cleaned and being exposed to sand and mud. I have been asked on a number of occasions what sets these rifles part from other Kalashnikov rifles on the market. It is a simple matter of quality and attention to details. As attractive as they are rugged, they allow the American collector and shooter a chance to finally own a high quality Russian AK built at the Izhmash Arsenal in Izhevsk, Russia.

In addition to the standard full length AK-103, Marc also produces a shorty version called the AK-103K. Featuring the quality of a full size rifle in a more compact package, it is a light, handy rifle in the hard hitting 7.62x39mm caliber. Easy to stow and carry, yet extremely controllable on rapid fire due to the superb muzzle brake, it as impressive little rifle. In addition to the AK-103 and the AK-103K, Marc also produces custom Kalashnikovs to order. Whether built on a machined or a stamped receiver, he can do just about anything a customer may desire. Plus he keeps come custom rifles in stock for immediate shipment. After having him build me a machined receiver gun, literally from the ground up to my specifications, I can say I'm quite impressed by the quality of his work. A true professional, I highly recommend Marc Krebs of Krebs Custom, Inc.

David Fortier
Gunwriter

Fortier Letter

Don't know what the context is in which Mr. Fortier drafted this letter, but it strikes me as very inappropriate and a compromise of whatever journalistic integrity and ethics that Mr. Fortier has.

Posted: 9/6/2005 12:35:49 PM EDT

[#4]

In that letter he explains his experience with Krebs' work and his impressions of the products. That is basically what gun writers do in magazines. I see nothing wrong with it. Now if he was paid to write it and / or had never actually tested out the guns then that's another story.

Posted: 9/6/2005 12:42:48 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
In that letter he explains his experience with Krebs' work and his impressions of the products. That is basically what gun writers do in magazines. I see nothing wrong with it. Now if he was paid to write it and / or had never actually tested out the guns then that's another story.

+1 he has written revuews of many krebs rifles, I don't get whats wrong with that. Who should write these pieces, zoologists?

Posted: 9/6/2005 12:43:02 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I'm not a big fan of hybrid AKs or ARs, and prefer to keep each one as original as possible.

Krebs does some great work. If you like it, buy it.

Me too. I like to see them in their original form with original furniture as well.
That's one of the biggest reasons I hate the black polymer stocks on them these days.

But to each his own. I'm sure you would love a Krebs AK too.

Posted: 9/6/2005 12:56:17 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not a big fan of hybrid AKs or ARs, and prefer to keep each one as original as possible.

Krebs does some great work. If you like it, buy it.

Me too. I like to see them in their original form with original furniture as well.
That's one of the biggest reasons I hate the black polymer stocks on them these days.

But to each his own. I'm sure you would love a Krebs AK too.

I've got a couple traditionals - don't worry!

Posted: 9/6/2005 12:56:30 PM EDT

[#8]

krebs must have have paid for that "review" from fortier......fortier is a legend in his own mind, and likes to write more about himself then anything else.

Posted: 9/6/2005 1:42:15 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
In that letter he explains his experience with Krebs' work and his impressions of the products. That is basically what gun writers do in magazines. I see nothing wrong with it. Now if he was paid to write it and / or had never actually tested out the guns then that's another story.

It is one thing to write in an article that you are impressed with a company. It's another thing to write a letter for or to a company that the company then uses on its website. It suggests an improper relationship and a lack of objectivity.

Posted: 9/6/2005 1:44:49 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In that letter he explains his experience with Krebs' work and his impressions of the products. That is basically what gun writers do in magazines. I see nothing wrong with it. Now if he was paid to write it and / or had never actually tested out the guns then that's another story.

+1 he has written revuews of many krebs rifles, I don't get whats wrong with that. Who should write these pieces, zoologists?

That's not it. By writing a piece for Krebs, posted on Krebs's website, he demonstrates an utter lack of objectivity, which is what writers who report on things are supposed to have. But I guess that doesn't apply to gun~~whores~~writers anymore.

And, yes, I used to be a gunwriter, before returning to the belly of the beast to work for Uncle Sugar.

Posted: 9/6/2005 2:12:32 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/10-25-04/ktr03svltor.jpg

how anyone would bubbaize a AK, and call it a "custom" then charge a laugable price for it, is beyond me......but then there are people out there that think a chrome plated AK looks "cool"...... so I guess as long as you have people who's taste is in their ass, people will buy these over-priced bubba trailer AKs.

it's a shame that 2 great AK receivers are made into bubba specials

The traditional look of the standard AK looks better to me than those with all the improvements on them. That said, I really like the KTR03S series because with the improved safety and sights its simply a better shooting tool than the more traditional AKs. That is where my particular priority lies so I'd only buy AKs that have the more current sights and safety. Besides, those kinds of advancements are being integrated into modern military AK types around the world as other govts, continue to improve upon the AK.

Posted: 9/6/2005 2:16:21 PM EDT

[#12]

gun-writers and objectivity, theirs two words that don't belong togther..... Now I see what you meant.

Posted: 9/6/2005 2:17:38 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't like Krebs stuff....always seem like franken-rifles, but I'm just tough to please in general.

What, you mean you don't think this is THE HEAT??
www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/6-2-05/kcicustomrifle.jpg

That is an abomination. Cali model?

Posted: 9/6/2005 3:16:23 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
and rguns aren't gonna screw me?

I wouldn't count on it my friend.

we're playing with double negatives here.... are they worth dealing with or not?

Well, I am still waiting on my case of 30 rd mags I was billed for in June.

Posted: 9/6/2005 5:30:10 PM EDT

[#15]

I have a KTR-03V in 7.62. No top cover issues. Came directly from Krebs, I didn't deal with R-guns.

I originally planned on using the Robinson VEPR folding stock that was promised back when the AWB ended, but it never materialized and I am sick of waiting for it.

So, I am going to sell it and get a KTR-03S instead, with a Russian side folding stock.

I don't like AR stocks on AK's, but only because the buffer tube sticks out so far. A commie length AK stock is plenty short enough to use without body armor, and it's nice and compact when folded.

I will put some pics up when I get the chance.

As for the "authentic Russian laminate" mafia, get a life. Some of us want better rifles, and the AK design is hardly without faults. "Rails don't belong on an AK" ??? CZ and Zastava don't agree with you. I guess they don't know anything about rifles, and Arfcom "authenticity" experts do.

I can buy a rail handguard for an MP5, does that mean I'm trying to turn an MP5 into an AR?????

Posted: 9/6/2005 5:42:13 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/10-25-04/ktr03svltor.jpg

how anyone would bubbaize a AK, and call it a "custom" then charge a laugable price for it, is beyond me......but then there are people out there that think a chrome plated AK looks "cool"...... so I guess as long as you have people who's taste is in their ass, people will buy these over-priced bubba trailer AKs.

it's a shame that 2 great AK receivers are made into bubba specials

The traditional look of the standard AK looks better to me than those with all the improvements on them. That said, I really like the KTR03S series because with the improved safety and sights its simply a better shooting tool than the more traditional AKs. That is where my particular priority lies so I'd only buy AKs that have the more current sights and safety. Besides, those kinds of advancements are being integrated into modern military AK types around the world as other govts, continue to improve upon the AK.

===================
Yep, that's one reason why the AR-M9 appeals to me. The rear sight is an improvement...but not by much.

(PS -- Yee hah, my first pic post...broke the code!)

Posted: 9/11/2005 12:29:24 PM EDT

[#17]

I had a KTR-03 (7.62) which had all the features of that one minus the handgard rail. Dont mean to piss in your wheaties but here are a few problems with the design. Sorry Fortier.........

1) Gas tube has no vent holes which allows moisture to become trapped and rust up your piston if not wiped off immediately after shooting. Theres a reason why the russians put them there.

2) Gas tube has a dovetail which slides into the trunion which locks it in.....which in turn locks the reciever cover (and sights).......bolt carrior hammers on it while breaking in......presto it aint tight nomore....and neither are your groups........ or the aimpoint you mounted on it.

3) Rail cover (sights) are too high to allow you to use most any russian military scope / mount which would fit on the side rail........bend over and buy a plain cover.....and forget about using those fancy iron sights.

Krebs Response to your post
Dear Riz:
Dont know who the writer of those posts is, but:
1) The Russian put vent holes in the gas tube to vent gas, not because they were concerend about moisture.
2) With regard to the "bolt carrier hammering on the receiver cover" - If this actually did occur, the owner failed to notify us of the problem.
When we hear things like this, we don't listen too hard, because competitors have tried to "slam" us before. We have never heard of this problem with our KTRs before. We've had experiences of "owners" claiming problems and complaining about their KCI rifles on sites and chat rooms and, when we investigated, found that the claims were untrue, and the "owners" were our competition. If a person has a problem with a Krebs Custom firearm, I would think it would make sense to contact us and allow us to make it right.

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

Posted: 9/11/2005 12:38:03 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I had a KTR-03 (7.62) which had all the features of that one minus the handgard rail. Dont mean to piss in your wheaties but here are a few problems with the design. Sorry Fortier.........

1) Gas tube has no vent holes which allows moisture to become trapped and rust up your piston if not wiped off immediately after shooting. Theres a reason why the russians put them there.

2) Gas tube has a dovetail which slides into the trunion which locks it in.....which in turn locks the reciever cover (and sights).......bolt carrior hammers on it while breaking in......presto it aint tight nomore....and neither are your groups........ or the aimpoint you mounted on it.

3) Rail cover (sights) are too high to allow you to use most any russian military scope / mount which would fit on the side rail........bend over and buy a plain cover.....and forget about using those fancy iron sights.

Krebs Response to your post
Dear Riz:
Dont know who the writer of those posts is, but:
1) The Russian put vent holes in the gas tube to vent gas, not because they were concerend about moisture.
2) With regard to the "bolt carrier hammering on the receiver cover" - If this actually did occur, the owner failed to notify us of the problem.
When we hear things like this, we don't listen too hard, because competitors have tried to "slam" us before. We have never heard of this problem with our KTRs before. We've had experiences of "owners" claiming problems and complaining about their KCI rifles on sites and chat rooms and, when we investigated, found that the claims were untrue, and the "owners" were our competition. If a person has a problem with a Krebs Custom firearm, I would think it would make sense to contact us and allow us to make it right.

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

"rust up the piston" ?!?!?!?!? can't believe I missed that one!!! moisture? It's for excess gas. Simplke much duplicated desgin. As much gas is necessary pushes the piston, once piston passes the holes it needs no more gas so gas is let out. When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary, not to mention that they are built off saigas which have no holes anyway. And I asked Krebs bout receiver cover too. I was told (by them and others who own it) "try and take off that cover the first time and you'll see why zero is maintained."...

I have 100% confidence in krebs not only cause they build great rifles (one of which I already own, another on teh way) but also cause they are just damned fast about answerring emails and never dodge a question, give a lame excuse or any of that.

I'll post pics of my KTR when she comes. And will post a range report. Also getting a SAM5R around same time. I will do accuracy tests of the acknowledged accuracy master (sam5) against this krebs rifle everyone knocked (but nobody owns) a BIT too early!

Posted: 9/11/2005 3:58:36 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

so you're saying that pushing the safety forward or rotating it clockwise when looking at the left side puts thte gun in the fire mode similar to the AR15?

Posted: 9/11/2005 4:04:29 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

so you're saying that pushing the safety forward or rotating it clockwise when looking at the left side puts thte gun in the fire mode similar to the AR15?

I really don't think this point matters all that much! When I get it, I'll letcha know. IT's a HECK of a lot more natural than the rest of my AK's!

Posted: 9/11/2005 4:28:25 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

so you're saying that pushing the safety forward or rotating it clockwise when looking at the left side puts thte gun in the fire mode similar to the AR15?

YES!

Posted: 9/11/2005 6:14:01 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I had a KTR-03 (7.62) which had all the features of that one minus the handgard rail. Dont mean to piss in your wheaties but here are a few problems with the design. Sorry Fortier.........

1) Gas tube has no vent holes which allows moisture to become trapped and rust up your piston if not wiped off immediately after shooting. Theres a reason why the russians put them there.

2) Gas tube has a dovetail which slides into the trunion which locks it in.....which in turn locks the reciever cover (and sights).......bolt carrior hammers on it while breaking in......presto it aint tight nomore....and neither are your groups........ or the aimpoint you mounted on it.

3) Rail cover (sights) are too high to allow you to use most any russian military scope / mount which would fit on the side rail........bend over and buy a plain cover.....and forget about using those fancy iron sights.

Krebs Response to your post
Dear Riz:
Dont know who the writer of those posts is, but:
1) The Russian put vent holes in the gas tube to vent gas, not because they were concerend about moisture.
2) With regard to the "bolt carrier hammering on the receiver cover" - If this actually did occur, the owner failed to notify us of the problem.
When we hear things like this, we don't listen too hard, because competitors have tried to "slam" us before. We have never heard of this problem with our KTRs before. We've had experiences of "owners" claiming problems and complaining about their KCI rifles on sites and chat rooms and, when we investigated, found that the claims were untrue, and the "owners" were our competition. If a person has a problem with a Krebs Custom firearm, I would think it would make sense to contact us and allow us to make it right.

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

"rust up the piston" ?!?!?!?!? can't believe I missed that one!!! moisture? It's for excess gas. Simplke much duplicated desgin. As much gas is necessary pushes the piston, once piston passes the holes it needs no more gas so gas is let out. When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary, not to mention that they are built off saigas which have no holes anyway. And I asked Krebs bout receiver cover too. I was told (by them and others who own it) "try and take off that cover the first time and you'll see why zero is maintained."...

I have 100% confidence in krebs not only cause they build great rifles (one of which I already own, another on teh way) but also cause they are just damned fast about answerring emails and never dodge a question, give a lame excuse or any of that.

I'll post pics of my KTR when she comes. And will post a range report. Also getting a SAM5R around same time. I will do accuracy tests of the acknowledged accuracy master (sam5) against this krebs rifle everyone knocked (but nobody owns) a BIT too early!

1) No shit the holes in the gas tube are for regulateing gas.......a byproduct of this is it also gets rid of condensation when the rifle cools off genius. NEVER had a gas piston on my chinese / ero ak rust up when left for a week or two.

2) No shit the cover will be tight when it is new.........put 500 rounds through it then we can talk. I seriously doubt anyone here has a perfectly blued carrior with 500 rounds through it. (where piston is screwed in). That banging around will ultimately loosen up your cover / sights.

I see Marc never addressed my other points so they must be bullshit as well.

I wasn't saying it was a piece of shit........went bang every time.......but most of the so called improvements which you are paying big bucks for are questionable at best.

You wanted an honest opinion and thats what you got.............I don't give a rats ass if you buy one or not......... its your money.

When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary,

......my sides are fucking hurting after reading that......thanks

........phantom KTR I never owned......

Posted: 9/11/2005 7:01:28 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had a KTR-03 (7.62) which had all the features of that one minus the handgard rail. Dont mean to piss in your wheaties but here are a few problems with the design. Sorry Fortier.........

1) Gas tube has no vent holes which allows moisture to become trapped and rust up your piston if not wiped off immediately after shooting. Theres a reason why the russians put them there.

2) Gas tube has a dovetail which slides into the trunion which locks it in.....which in turn locks the reciever cover (and sights).......bolt carrior hammers on it while breaking in......presto it aint tight nomore....and neither are your groups........ or the aimpoint you mounted on it.

3) Rail cover (sights) are too high to allow you to use most any russian military scope / mount which would fit on the side rail........bend over and buy a plain cover.....and forget about using those fancy iron sights.

Krebs Response to your post
Dear Riz:
Dont know who the writer of those posts is, but:
1) The Russian put vent holes in the gas tube to vent gas, not because they were concerend about moisture.
2) With regard to the "bolt carrier hammering on the receiver cover" - If this actually did occur, the owner failed to notify us of the problem.
When we hear things like this, we don't listen too hard, because competitors have tried to "slam" us before. We have never heard of this problem with our KTRs before. We've had experiences of "owners" claiming problems and complaining about their KCI rifles on sites and chat rooms and, when we investigated, found that the claims were untrue, and the "owners" were our competition. If a person has a problem with a Krebs Custom firearm, I would think it would make sense to contact us and allow us to make it right.

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

"rust up the piston" ?!?!?!?!? can't believe I missed that one!!! moisture? It's for excess gas. Simplke much duplicated desgin. As much gas is necessary pushes the piston, once piston passes the holes it needs no more gas so gas is let out. When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary, not to mention that they are built off saigas which have no holes anyway. And I asked Krebs bout receiver cover too. I was told (by them and others who own it) "try and take off that cover the first time and you'll see why zero is maintained."...

I have 100% confidence in krebs not only cause they build great rifles (one of which I already own, another on teh way) but also cause they are just damned fast about answerring emails and never dodge a question, give a lame excuse or any of that.

I'll post pics of my KTR when she comes. And will post a range report. Also getting a SAM5R around same time. I will do accuracy tests of the acknowledged accuracy master (sam5) against this krebs rifle everyone knocked (but nobody owns) a BIT too early!

1) No shit the holes in the gas tube are for regulateing gas.......a byproduct of this is it also gets rid of condensation when the rifle cools off genius. NEVER had a gas piston on my chinese / ero ak rust up when left for a week or two.

2) No shit the cover will be tight when it is new.........put 500 rounds through it then we can talk. I seriously doubt anyone here has a perfectly blued carrior with 500 rounds through it. (where piston is screwed in). That banging around will ultimately loosen up your cover / sights.

I see Marc never addressed my other points so they must be bullshit as well.

I wasn't saying it was a piece of shit........went bang every time.......but most of the so called improvements which you are paying big bucks for are questionable at best.

You wanted an honest opinion and thats what you got.............I don't give a rats ass if you buy one or not......... its your money.

When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary,
......my sides are fucking hurting after reading that......thanks

........phantom KTR I never owned......
www.hunt101.com/img/323256.jpg

Krebs has a 2-3 MOA guarantee for life on these. IF it ever shoots less than you send it back adn they'll fix it. That's enough for me.

Why didn't/don't you just send the rifle back? They stand by their work over there. Something sounds 'off' here. It's virutally impossible to not be happy with a krebs product cause they'll always fix a problem if there is one. So why didn't you try?

Posted: 9/11/2005 7:12:50 PM EDT

[#24]

and your attitude about this whole thing smells fishy.

Posted: 9/11/2005 8:01:54 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had a KTR-03 (7.62) which had all the features of that one minus the handgard rail. Dont mean to piss in your wheaties but here are a few problems with the design. Sorry Fortier.........

1) Gas tube has no vent holes which allows moisture to become trapped and rust up your piston if not wiped off immediately after shooting. Theres a reason why the russians put them there.

2) Gas tube has a dovetail which slides into the trunion which locks it in.....which in turn locks the reciever cover (and sights).......bolt carrior hammers on it while breaking in......presto it aint tight nomore....and neither are your groups........ or the aimpoint you mounted on it.

3) Rail cover (sights) are too high to allow you to use most any russian military scope / mount which would fit on the side rail........bend over and buy a plain cover.....and forget about using those fancy iron sights.

Krebs Response to your post
Dear Riz:
Dont know who the writer of those posts is, but:
1) The Russian put vent holes in the gas tube to vent gas, not because they were concerend about moisture.
2) With regard to the "bolt carrier hammering on the receiver cover" - If this actually did occur, the owner failed to notify us of the problem.
When we hear things like this, we don't listen too hard, because competitors have tried to "slam" us before. We have never heard of this problem with our KTRs before. We've had experiences of "owners" claiming problems and complaining about their KCI rifles on sites and chat rooms and, when we investigated, found that the claims were untrue, and the "owners" were our competition. If a person has a problem with a Krebs Custom firearm, I would think it would make sense to contact us and allow us to make it right.

"I'm not really that big of a fan of that thumb safety. I've never tried one but...its backwards (you'd have to pull the safety back to fire) and i would imagine that it doesn't have that nice of a feel what with the movement also swiping off the traditional safety on the right side."

That is WRONG...I own one and it does not work backwards.
Thoughts/Comments
Riz

"rust up the piston" ?!?!?!?!? can't believe I missed that one!!! moisture? It's for excess gas. Simplke much duplicated desgin. As much gas is necessary pushes the piston, once piston passes the holes it needs no more gas so gas is let out. When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary, not to mention that they are built off saigas which have no holes anyway. And I asked Krebs bout receiver cover too. I was told (by them and others who own it) "try and take off that cover the first time and you'll see why zero is maintained."...

I have 100% confidence in krebs not only cause they build great rifles (one of which I already own, another on teh way) but also cause they are just damned fast about answerring emails and never dodge a question, give a lame excuse or any of that.

I'll post pics of my KTR when she comes. And will post a range report. Also getting a SAM5R around same time. I will do accuracy tests of the acknowledged accuracy master (sam5) against this krebs rifle everyone knocked (but nobody owns) a BIT too early!

1) No shit the holes in the gas tube are for regulateing gas.......a byproduct of this is it also gets rid of condensation when the rifle cools off genius. NEVER had a gas piston on my chinese / ero ak rust up when left for a week or two.

2) No shit the cover will be tight when it is new.........put 500 rounds through it then we can talk. I seriously doubt anyone here has a perfectly blued carrior with 500 rounds through it. (where piston is screwed in). That banging around will ultimately loosen up your cover / sights.

I see Marc never addressed my other points so they must be bullshit as well.

I wasn't saying it was a piece of shit........went bang every time.......but most of the so called improvements which you are paying big bucks for are questionable at best.

You wanted an honest opinion and thats what you got.............I don't give a rats ass if you buy one or not......... its your money.

When you make 50,000,000 rifles, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary,
......my sides are fucking hurting after reading that......thanks

........phantom KTR I never owned......
www.hunt101.com/img/323256.jpg

I've put 1,200-2,000 rounds through my KTR03V and the cover is still rock solid. It was my first of three Krebs KTRs. The guns are rock solid. Put one side by side with any other AK and you'll see how the Krebs ooze quality and precision. You'll also notice that the improvements over the basic AK are real, many and quite worthwhile.

Posted: 9/11/2005 8:11:24 PM EDT

[#26]

You asked if anyone had any first hand experience with a KTR. I gave you a detailed list of problems I had with mine(some big, some not). You call bullshit to my post..............I dont appreciate being called a lier.......

so be ready for a detailed attack on your facts!

WTF??? I thought I was helping a fellow AK'er out.

I guess not .......If you dont believe me, no skin off my back.....enjoy your KTR.

You can lead a horse to water...........

Posted: 9/12/2005 2:56:09 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
You asked if anyone had any first hand experience with a KTR. I gave you a detailed list of problems I had with mine(some big, some not). You call bullshit to my post..............I dont appreciate being called a lier....... so be ready for a detailed attack on your facts!

WTF??? I thought I was helping a fellow AK'er out. I guess not .......If you dont believe me, no skin off my back.....enjoy your KTR.

You can lead a horse to water...........

did you contact Krebs about your problems?

And your skin is way thin to be losing any.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:42:54 AM EDT

[#28]

1) No shit the holes in the gas tube are for regulateing gas.......a byproduct of this is it also gets rid of condensation when the rifle cools off genius. NEVER had a gas piston on my chinese / ero ak rust up when left for a week or two.

Just thought I would put my $.02. I have had a KTR-03V in 7.62x39 for about 6 months. I have over 1,000 rounds throught it.

No rust on my piston. The top cover is just as solid as the day I bought it.

No offence, are you using corrosive ammo?

Spud47

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:25:17 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
You asked if anyone had any first hand experience with a KTR. I gave you a detailed list of problems I had with mine(some big, some not). You call bullshit to my post..............I dont appreciate being called a lier.......hr

I never called your post bullshit...I just thought it was fair for Krebs to respond. What I didnt say is that I have a KTR and have not had those kind of problems. So far I enjoy the hell out of it. For damn sure, if I didnt get what I paid for I would have no problems calling Krebs to be sure I was made happy.
my 1/2 cents
Riz

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:10:19 AM EDT

[#30]

Nope.......wolf. I see all the positive reviews are from people who have one built on a Saiga.

Could be why Marc does not build them on Veprs anymore.

...........

I've wasted enough of my time on this topic.........summary

1) Saiga built KTR's are awesome..........

2) Veper built KTR's are awesome most of the time.........

3) CJ is easily offended when given advice

........dont waste your time giveing him any

4)

When you make 50,000,000, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:37:12 AM EDT

[#31]

I've got VEPR (7.62), Saiga (7.62) and Arsenal (5.45) based KTRs and they've all performed well so far. The VEPR version has 1,200-2000 rounds through it and its still rock solid. Its the same with the Saiga based KTR that has 300-500 rds. through it. Just took the Arsenal based gun out yestderay and it rocks.

Posted: 9/12/2005 8:04:24 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Nope.......wolf. I see all the positive reviews are from people who have one built on a Saiga.

Could be why Marc does not build them on Veprs anymore. ...........

I've wasted enough of my time on this topic.........summary

1) Saiga built KTR's are awesome..........

2) Veper built KTR's are awesome most of the time.........

3) CJ is easily offended when given advice ........dont waste your time giveing him any

4)
When you make 50,000,000, that helps. When you're Krebs its unnecessary

Did you ever ocntact Krebs about your problems? (still unanswered)

Posted: 9/12/2005 10:09:38 AM EDT

[#33]

Yes I did.........told me to send it back on my nickle (of course). When spending $1050 you would think they could get it right the first time, this aint a $300 CAI cobbjob.......I fixed the problems myself.......then again not many of you have access to a $30,000 Tree 1260 CNC mill. (I was a CNC programmer / designed fixtures ect) If you want something done right do it yourself........if you have the means

1) Milled dovetail .025 higher in trunion. Built up weld on bottem of gas tube and machined for a tight fit. (where it slides in trunion) This gave me .010 clearence so carrior wasn't hitting anything. Built up weld on top of cover to to lock cover down tight against receiver when inserted into gas tube.

2) Gas piston rusting.....3 options ....drill holes in tube(AKM)....use a stainless steel piston....wipe off with an oily rag after shooting ......(no brainer oily rag)

3) Safety moveing up while shooting.......removed safety and prick punched a deeper indent....cut a deeper slot in receiver for it to catch on.

4) Iron sights were way off befor any of the above mods. Shot 2' low and 8" to the right @ 50 yds. Cut off .050 from front post and screwed down as far as it would go.(with 200 yd sight flipped up) Cranked rear sight nearly all the way to the left..... just to get an acceptable POI

5) Ordered a plain vepr cover from Robinsion since my 8x PSOP would not fit with rail cover attached. Mounted an EOTECH on rail cover which in turn was hit / chewed up by spent 7.62 cases.

Fuck this.

6) Front handgard is held in place by a cheesy tiny screw which strips easily. Drilled out bushings to .250 and used a dowel pin in its place. I would have fired the person on the spot who dreamed that up

You can see I'm not a big fan of Krebs conversions.........you want the real deal buy a GALIL....... Sold off mine to a friend after makeing it right.........YMMV

Posted: 9/12/2005 12:30:52 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Yes I did.........told me to send it back on my nickle (of course). When spending $1050 you would think they could get it right the first time, this aint a $300 CAI cobbjob.......I fixed the problems myself.......then again not many of you have access to a $30,000 Tree 1260 CNC mill. (I was a CNC programmer / designed fixtures ect) If you want something done right do it yourself........if you have the means

1) Milled dovetail .025 higher in trunion. Built up weld on bottem of gas tube and machined for a tight fit. (where it slides in trunion) This gave me .010 clearence so carrior wasn't hitting anything. Built up weld on top of cover to to lock cover down tight against receiver when inserted into gas tube.

2) Gas piston rusting.....3 options ....drill holes in tube(AKM)....use a stainless steel piston....wipe off with an oily rag after shooting ......(no brainer oily rag)

3) Safety moveing up while shooting.......removed safety and prick punched a deeper indent....cut a deeper slot in receiver for it to catch on.

4) Iron sights were way off befor any of the above mods. Shot 2' low and 8" to the right @ 50 yds. Cut off .050 from front post and screwed down as far as it would go.(with 200 yd sight flipped up) Cranked rear sight nearly all the way to the left..... just to get an acceptable POI

5) Ordered a plain vepr cover from Robinsion since my 8x PSOP would not fit with rail cover attached. Mounted an EOTECH on rail cover which in turn was hit / chewed up by spent 7.62 cases. Fuck this.

6) Front handgard is held in place by a cheesy tiny screw which strips easily. Drilled out bushings to .250 and used a dowel pin in its place. I would have fired the person on the spot who dreamed that up

You can see I'm not a big fan of Krebs conversions.........you want the real deal buy a GALIL....... Sold off mine to a friend after makeing it right.........YMMV

I fI had access to that machinery, I'd make my own guns! Still don't see why you didn't ust send it back . The reason people are willing to pay that much is exactly because tehy will take it back and fix it. You spent the money and then didn't avail yourself of the benifits of that large outlay?

Posted: 9/12/2005 12:52:59 PM EDT

[#35]

So I check back in when I see this going to p4, no shock that complete agreement was not found on a growing thread...

As long as frustration does not turn to shit slinging, I'll just stay out since I never owned the KTR varient.

Posted: 9/12/2005 1:22:03 PM EDT

[#36]

I've only fired 200 rounds through my KTR-03V, but so far it has maintained zero just fine.

Krebs is not building KTR-03V's any more because of two things, lack of demand and unpredictable supply of VEPR's from Robinson. Not because "they have problems that KTR-03S models don't". If you don't believe me, call Brian Conrad at Krebs and ask him, this info came straight from him.

As for the front handguard, I do wish it was retained with a HK-style pushpin rather than a screw, but oh well, minor annoyance.

The guy who claimed the safety is backwards obviously has never seen one, it works like it should. The Arsenal SA M7 SF has a backwards safety, which is why I sold mine.

My gas piston hasn't rusted either. There's this little hole in the barrel called the "gas port" that moisture can escape from. The only way I can see it rusting is if you used corrosive ammo. I don't shoot corrosive ammo, since my Valmet 62 has a non-chromed barrel.

ETA: the non-vented gas tube should be a benefit when using the rifle with a suppressor. I haven't tried this yet but I will report on it as soon as I can.

Posted: 9/12/2005 1:34:18 PM EDT

[#37]

My gas piston hasn't rusted either. There's this little hole in the barrel called the "gas port" .

Oh no, haven't you read the thread. only smoken44 can use sarcasm to prove a point! now he'll claim you're just bitter cause he's kewler than you.

Posted: 9/16/2005 10:12:31 AM EDT

[#38]

UPDATE, while I do 'believe' in teh rifle and will buy one if it comes along on the EE in 'S' form, I will not be buying one new 'cause Krebs will NOT sell them direct and I won't go through Rguns..... And Krebs claims to have checked out Rguns and been satisfied. Looks like the Rguns owner snookered them too

.

EMAIL 3

Hi, Marc!
Sorry - I believe the "no problem" referred to one of the other questions you had asked.
We have an agreement with RGuns that gives them an exclusive for KTR-03S rifles, and we've heard no problems from customers regarding their delivery. If you don't want to go on their "back order" list, then you might want to wait until they have the rifles in stock and purchase one at that time. We're making them as fast as we can, so we're hoping it won't be too long before the KTR-03Ss are back "in stock" at RGuns, but you must get a KTR-03S through them. Any other rifle you can purchase from us directly.
I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Brian
Krebs Custom

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

EMAIL 2

From: CHAPPERJOE <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Krebs AK's

Brian,
I'm confused, first when I asked about obtaining a KTR through Krebs you told me:

"No problem, Marc! Since we have a contractual agreement with RGuns, we recommend people go through them. "

Now I get an email that says:

"We have an agreement with RGuns that gives them an exclusive, so you should deal with them. I believe they may still have a few KTRs in 5.45x39, and they're taking back orders for the next "batch" of 7.62x39 rifles (which we haven't produced yet, because we're waiting for "base" rifles from our supplier). If a customer has any problems with RGuns regarding one of our rifles, they're welcome to contact us, and we'll see if we can help."

Which is it? If I can place an order through Krebs I will do so. If not, I will not be buying a rifle through Rguns. A 300$ risk is one thing, a $1200 one is an entirely different matter.

-Marc

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

EMAIL 1
-----Forwarded Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Krebs AKs

Hi, Joe!
Before we entered into an agreement with RGuns, Marc and I checked with Roger regarding his history. We got HIS side of the story, and were satisfied with his response.
We have an agreement with RGuns that gives them an exclusive, so you should deal with them. I believe they may still have a few KTRs in 5.45x39, and they're taking back orders for the next "batch" of 7.62x39 rifles (which we haven't produced yet, because we're waiting for "base" rifles from our supplier). If a customer has any problems with RGuns regarding one of our rifles, they're welcome to contact us, and we'll see if we can help.
Thank you for your interest and your concern. I hope this information helps.

Brian
Krebs Custom

Posted: 9/16/2005 3:01:24 PM EDT

[#39]

RGuns did me fine on both KTR03S' that I bought from them. Ordered on a Monday and had 'em by Friday in both instances. No complaints here.

Kevin

Quoted:
UPDATE, while I do 'believe' in teh rifle and will buy one if it comes along on the EE in 'S' form, I will not be buying one new 'cause Krebs will NOT sell them direct and I won't go through Rguns..... And Krebs claims to have checked out Rguns and been satisfied. Looks like the Rguns owner snookered them too.

EMAIL 3

Hi, Marc!
Sorry - I believe the "no problem" referred to one of the other questions you had asked.
We have an agreement with RGuns that gives them an exclusive for KTR-03S rifles, and we've heard no problems from customers regarding their delivery. If you don't want to go on their "back order" list, then you might want to wait until they have the rifles in stock and purchase one at that time. We're making them as fast as we can, so we're hoping it won't be too long before the KTR-03Ss are back "in stock" at RGuns, but you must get a KTR-03S through them. Any other rifle you can purchase from us directly.
I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Brian
Krebs Custom

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

EMAIL 2

From: CHAPPERJOE <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Krebs AK's

Brian,
I'm confused, first when I asked about obtaining a KTR through Krebs you told me:

"No problem, Marc! Since we have a contractual agreement with RGuns, we recommend people go through them. "

Now I get an email that says:

"We have an agreement with RGuns that gives them an exclusive, so you should deal with them. I believe they may still have a few KTRs in 5.45x39, and they're taking back orders for the next "batch" of 7.62x39 rifles (which we haven't produced yet, because we're waiting for "base" rifles from our supplier). If a customer has any problems with RGuns regarding one of our rifles, they're welcome to contact us, and we'll see if we can help."

Which is it? If I can place an order through Krebs I will do so. If not, I will not be buying a rifle through Rguns. A 300$ risk is one thing, a $1200 one is an entirely different matter.

-Marc

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

EMAIL 1
-----Forwarded Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Krebs AKs

Hi, Joe!
Before we entered into an agreement with RGuns, Marc and I checked with Roger regarding his history. We got HIS side of the story, and were satisfied with his response.
We have an agreement with RGuns that gives them an exclusive, so you should deal with them. I believe they may still have a few KTRs in 5.45x39, and they're taking back orders for the next "batch" of 7.62x39 rifles (which we haven't produced yet, because we're waiting for "base" rifles from our supplier). If a customer has any problems with RGuns regarding one of our rifles, they're welcome to contact us, and we'll see if we can help.
Thank you for your interest and your concern. I hope this information helps.

Brian
Krebs Custom

Posted: 9/16/2005 3:58:09 PM EDT

[#40]

FWIW:
www.gunsmagazine.com/F04.html

I think however that the traditional AK stock simply looks best.

Posted: 9/21/2005 7:14:07 AM EDT

[#41]

I know that I said earlier that I couldn't spend $1000 on any AK, well I was wrong. I'm going to get a KTR-03S soon. I've been making plans for converting my last Saiga 7.62x39 rifle into a tactical carbine, but by the time I got all the parts and time, I would likely spend near $750-$800 and it won't even have the top cover rail, sight and thumb safety like the Kreb's model.

Posted: 9/21/2005 8:51:27 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I know that I said earlier that I couldn't spend $1000 on any AK, well I was wrong. I'm going to get a KTR-03S soon. I've been making plans for converting my last Saiga 7.62x39 rifle into a tactical carbine, but by the time I got all the parts and time, I would likely spend near $750-$800 and it won't even have the top cover rail, sight and thumb safety like the Kreb's model.

Thats the conclusion I came to as well, but I'm weary of people with not-perfect reputations. I got a SAM5 and the SEAK III instead.

Posted: 9/24/2005 2:48:48 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I know that I said earlier that I couldn't spend $1000 on any AK, well I was wrong. I'm going to get a KTR-03S soon. I've been making plans for converting my last Saiga 7.62x39 rifle into a tactical carbine, but by the time I got all the parts and time, I would likely spend near $750-$800 and it won't even have the top cover rail, sight and thumb safety like the Kreb's model.

Exact same thoughts I had before I bought my KTR. I love it. The Millet red dot scope 'co-witness' with the iron sights on it.
Riz

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fortier tripping over himself over the Krebs AK74 - should I go for it? UPDATE P4 NO WAY! (Page 2 of 2)

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