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Posted: 9/1/2003 3:16:05 PM EDT
What kind of accuracy can I expect from an AK-47 shooting Wolf ammo?
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 5:53:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By star2323:
What kind of accuracy can I expect from an AK-47 shooting Wolf ammo?



about the same as any other AK ammo, at 100 meters, it will put holes in a man size target, the farther out the target, you're going to loose some rounds, ......these are AKs, not some precision sub-moa rifles. the fun of shooting them is putting out a lot of lead.

if your looking for tight groups, at distances of 100 meters or farther..... you picked the wrong rifle.

Link Posted: 9/1/2003 6:18:44 PM EDT
I know that AKs are not real accurate guns. I have bench AR and 300 Win mag. for when I need to put 3 holes in the bullseye.

Justing asking because I have a BSA red dot on my AK and my shots are all over the place at 100 yards. I didn't know if it was the gun or the red dot. At 100 yards an AK should be able to put 5 shots in a 6" circle shouldn't it?

Come on what about everybody else out there with AKs what kind of accuracy do you get.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 6:50:34 PM EDT
Mmmm, not to dis, but this looks like a case of anecdotal information at best on the part of SF here...

Most AKs, even the bottom-barrel SARs aught to manage 4" MOA at 100m off the bench. I find my groups open up to 6" shooting offhand just due to the natural instability of the human body...with an AR I can usually do 2" on a bench and 4" offhand...

There are notable differences however....a RPK sized AK will shoot 1.5MOA all day from a supported position, and of course, a Krink or other SBR styled AK will open up from that quite a bit, may be 5-8" MOA at 100m.

The AK is a combat weapon, not a target weapon. Even the AK based sniper weapons like the SVD and FPL are at the maximum forward coefficient for the design accuracy. Still, it is not nearly as bad as many would have you believe. I've hit 24" "gong" targets out to 300m with my Romanian underfolder using iron sights and achieved 9/10 rounds hitting.

What brand red dot sight are you using? What kind of work have you invested in your weapon's trigger?

Wolf works about as well coming out of a 16" Kalashnakov barrel as any other brand would, and from a bench, a 1.75" group aught not to be that much of a rarity with it if you've got a decent weapon.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 6:53:43 PM EDT
With open sights with Wolf ammo I usually get around 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 7:00:42 PM EDT
Thanks Rebel, I think your information sounds a lot more like what I expected.

I have a MAK-90. All I have done to it was put a different stock on it, took off the front site, and installed a B-Square scope mount (very nice mount). I haven't touched the trigger. I have a BSA 50mm red dot on it right now and I think the thing is a piece of shit. I can shoot a 3" 5-shot group sometimes and other times my shots are everywhere. It seems like it all depends on how you look through the red dot.

I am just trying to figure out if its the gun or the red dot.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 8:25:37 PM EDT
i believe those BSA red dots have either a 5 or 8 MOA dot. so,if you want to improve your group size go with better optics. i would bet that you would probably shoot better groups off a bench with the open sites.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 8:39:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2003 8:51:35 PM EDT by sfcret]

Originally Posted By star2323:

I have a MAK-90. All I have done to it was put a different stock on it, took off the front site, and installed a B-Square scope mount (very nice mount). I haven't touched the trigger. I have a BSA 50mm red dot on it right now and I think the thing is a piece of shit. I can shoot a 3" 5-shot group sometimes and other times my shots are everywhere. It seems like it all depends on how you look through the red dot.

I am just trying to figure out if its the gun or the red dot.



I would say it's a combination of both....red dot sights have some parallex issue with them, and as the barrel gets more heated, your groups will open up.....also you metioned you have a B-square scope mount....is this the type that replaces the action cover, with a cover that has the mount on it? if so, that would be another big factor.

the scope mount covers are IMO, the biggest waste of money, that anybody can buy as a AK accessory.....they are not a stable platform to mount a scope on.

with just iron sight I get a 6-7 inch group....more when the barrel get hot....but at 100 meters it will do what is designed to do, hit a man size target. granted the rear sight design ( "v" notch) isn't the greatest design for a rifle, but it serves it's purpose.

here is my take on ammo for it.....buy whatever is cheap, regardless of what brand.


if you want my opinion, I would sell off that mount and scope, and just use the standard iron sights...if you don't like the way the rear sight design is, you might want to consider a MOJO rear sight.....it will give you a better sight picture, as it is a peep type sight, and is adjustable for windage and elevation...it's a simple matter of replacing the existing sight.

some may flame me for saying this....OK maybe everybody on this board, including their extended families .......but putting a scope on a AK is a waste of money.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 11:06:26 PM EDT
sfcret's last line did it for me....he's a blackrifle junkie and will refuse to acknowledge anything that would put the absolute superiority of the AR in jepordy :) That said, IMHO putting an AR into the hands of a serious combat soldier is a waste of human life . Uncle Sam has decreed that people in my particular MOS carry the AK sized AR, the M4...if I have to smuggle in a DSA Carbine, if I have to appropriate an AK off a dead Iraqi, I will not find myself, ever, in a serious combat situation with a .22.

A x4 power PSO scope on a side rail with a BDC is an excellent scope for any weapon in the 7.62x39 chambering, and can shave up to an inch off your groups. I had a sub-MOA SAR2 in 5.45 that routinely embarrased the crap out of out-of-box "as issued" AR owners on the range using a 5.45 calibrated PSO.

Your MAK might be experiencing a little bit of an issue with both the loss of the front sight (I pulled the front sight off of a very accurate Norinco Hunter once and it went from 2" groups to 8" groups)...I dunno why, but barrel harmonics might just be better with that big fork up there than without it. But to each their own....Galils and Valmets mount no front sight base and are reputedly extremely accurate. I'm not that rich.

Anyhow, next time it suits you, give Ken at RSA a buzz and get his adjustable trigger group. Thats a group reducer if I've ever seen one.
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 4:09:52 AM EDT
The BSA red dot has a 1" MOA dot. As for the scope mount it is not one of those that replace the action cover. You are right those are complete junk. Here is a link to the B-Square mount that I here.. I believe this is by far the best AK mount on the market.

Since I took off the iron sights I can't really use them. I think I will take off the red dot this weekend and put a rifle scope on it just to see what the gun will really do.
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 4:15:41 AM EDT
If you stillhave the Chinese trigger in there, you have probably one of the best stock triggers. The RSA is better, but all the Chinese triggers I've squeezed have been darn good.

The loss of the front sight may have something to do with it. Chinese barrels aren't the greatest for accuracy, but I'd think you could get better out of it.

I think the red dot sight is the biggest contributor to your big groups. Think of it this way, if you have a 5-8MOA dot, then you're not going to really have a good chance at getting better than a 5-8" group at 100. Red dots are for close-in, fast shooting. They're great for that, but when your range opens up, the relative size of the dot gets big too. If your red dot covers an 8" circle (and has fuzzy edges, parralax, etc) then it would follow that you're going to have a hard time keeping groups less than that.

I used the same BSA red dot on my MAK-90 .223. It shot crap groups at 100yds, though it was WAY faster than any other rifle at nailing stuff at close range. It would be an excellent CQB set-up. I ditched the red dot and went with the sights (I only had the cheap ass top cover mount it came with, which is worthless) and my groups are now about 4" at 100yds, with Wolf .223. Not the same caliber, so comparison can't be made well, but before that I was getting 6-8" groups at 100yds with the red dot.

The AK has always had accuracy "problems" because of the sighting system. The sight radius is only about twice as long as a .45 Auto, and they aren't exactly target sights either. Combine that with the ammo quality (which all seems kinda dodgey from a match point of view) and all the things hanging from the barrel (front sight, gas tube, handguards, etc) and you aren't going to beat out a Rem 700PSS any time soon.

Of course it wasn't designed for beating a 700PSS, but I think if you tried the iron sights and took your time, you'd have gotten better results. A low power optical system (i.e. scope) will help, but you need a good mount. Since you've already removed your front sight, and have a mount in place, I'd try a scope and see what happens. It's the logical next step.

Ross
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 4:21:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By star2323:
The BSA red dot has a 1" MOA dot. As for the scope mount it is not one of those that replace the action cover. You are right those are complete junk. Here is a link to the B-Square mount that I here.. I believe this is by far the best AK mount on the market.

Since I took off the iron sights I can't really use them. I think I will take off the red dot this weekend and put a rifle scope on it just to see what the gun will really do.



I guess I have a different BSA red dot. Mine is definately way larger than 1MOA. I did have a 1MOA red dot on my Bushmaster M17S, and it started wandering around. Don't remember if it was BSA (like it really matters, they're all the same), but it finally got so bad that you could see the red dot move every time you shot it. Now you can't even see the red dot unless you look at a 30deg angle to the eyepiece. Needless to say I've replaced it.

Go with a scope and see what happens.

Ross
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 6:12:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 11:07:57 AM EDT
Ross you are right I just checked my red dot and it is 5" MOA. So I am sure that is a large part of my problem. I going to try out a regular scope this weekend and see what it does.

Thanks!!
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