Ive eliminated this original post as, after my education, little remained applicable.

The last questions are on page two.

THANKS and YES when I post asking advice I do track my thread - like many of you I've answered bunches of this type post and don't know if the person posting is even reading the replies.  I'm reading !!!  

If you want something well finished I suggest you have InRange or someone similar build up four AK-74's all the same.  They will be new builds on unused Bulgarian parts sets if you act before they are all gone. By going custom you can have them "your way" as far as stock material and length, flash hiders, even the metal finish.  Each one will cost you about $550 or so, depending on the parts you select.

Go to the In Range website and see if this is what you want, he can also build you a '47 (in the more common 7.62x39 caliber).

7776 Posts?

For PREBAN AKs for the use you describe you should look for STAMPED receiver CHINESE rifles only. Why only Chinese and only stamped?
Everything else is worth too much to be used as a SHOOTER. You should be able to gather up some preban Norincos for about $850 each.

You'd be THE BEST OFF just buying however many SAR 1s you need with a KOBRA dot scope for each one. You can buy a SAR1, a KOBRA, 10 mags and 3000 rounds of ammo for the same $850.

There is a difference in the way some AKs LOOK.
There is almost ZERO difference in the way AKs WORK.

Mike

Quoted: 7776 Posts? For PREBAN AKs for the use you describe you should look for STAMPED receiver CHINESE rifles only. Why only Chinese and only stamped? Everything else is worth too much to be used as a SHOOTER. You should be able to gather up some preban Norincos for about $850 each. You'd be THE BEST OFF just buying however many SAR 1s you need with a KOBRA dot scope for each one. You can buy a SAR1, a KOBRA, 10 mags and 3000 rounds of ammo for the same $850. There is a difference in the way some AKs LOOK. There is almost ZERO difference in the way AKs WORK. Mike

I do know enough to agree that I want "stamped" receivers.  So I'm looking at about $850.00 for pre-ban Norinco's plus roughly how much for scope/mount ??  (They can buy their own Ammo !!)

Edited to ask:  So I would be looking for Preban Norinco AK Model______ and Kobra scope Model_______????

4 of these www.arsenalinc.com/sam7s.html.
I realize these are not pre-ban, but are excellent quality and come with the side mount optics rail and in 7.62 x 39. My .02

Preban chicoms are your best bet given your constraints as noted.
Milled would be okay but harder to find 4 of.  Polytechs are nice chinese AK's and will be fairly easy to come by in milled config but will cost several hundred more apiece.
As for scope mount that will be alittle difficult as the chicoms don't come with a mount and it will have to be added.  Don't waste time with rec cover mounts. They will not hold zero for crap.
Stamped rec's are lighter and probably hold up at least as well though accuracy may be minimally worse. I would go with stamped rec if I were you but that is an individual taste.
I agree with the recommendation to consider Romanian SAR's.  Though postban I think they fit all of your constraints quite well and come with a scope mount.  There are quite a few other options in a postban FWIW.
Other options as well for prebans but cost goes up well over $1000 per rifle.

Quoted: Preban chicoms are your best bet given your constraints as noted. ........as the chicoms don't come with a mount and it will have to be added.  Don't waste time with rec cover mounts. They will not hold zero for crap.

I know the 'cover problem' from the FN's that I've owned.  Great rifles but lousy to scope and get good accuracy.

No expert on pre-bans, but I am an optics mod here so... There are good custom aperture rear leaf sights for the AK if you insist on a model without a side rail mount for optics. Only the siderails are worth a hoot for mounting AK optics IMHO. Kobra EKP-8-02 is a Russian mil-spec red dot sight that works darned well for about $140. Similar price is for the PSO series 4x24 milspec scopes. For about $230 and a full 2+lbs weight there is the PO3.5x21 with crystal clear glass and a massive 12deg fov. All include siderail mounts as integral to the optics.
Given the closer range nature of the 7.62x39 round, I'd get Kobras.

As I know you are quite used to me disagreeing with you I will second the motion for post ban SARs, the cost would allow you to add a muzzel break and the only preban feature missing would be the Bayo.  Aks just can't add a folder, the receiver has to be manufactured to take a folder.  As to the preban choice, Valmet Mike is of course correct.  Optics, Kobra sight, or PSO either should run you about $130.  The SAR rifles come with an optics rail installed that will fit the Russian optics mount.  If you do go with preban norinco, these are available from Tapco or Kvar but might require a smith to install.  It will require drilling and rivets into the receiver.

I'd go postban.  Other than collector value I see no virtues in a preban AK. Values, SAR-1 about $300 - $350.  Preban underfolder $950- $1500 depending.  Preban not underfolder, Why bother.

Quoted: 7776 Posts? You'd be THE BEST OFF just buying however many SAR 1s you need with a KOBRA dot scope for each one. You can buy a SAR1, a KOBRA, 10 mags and 3000 rounds of ammo for the same $850. Mike

Mike, interesting option.  Truthfully, the bros would neither know nor care whether the rifles were preban or not.  I guess it's me that's hung-up on the preban.........I'll have to think about this.  Also comforting to see others recommend the Kobra scope.  (I may not be all that smart but I do take good advice !)

Tom  

Subdude:

www.aimsurplus.com

Don't ya just hate it when you clearly spell out what you're looking for and yet someone brings up something else anyway?  I'm sorry, but I have too.

Pre-ban/post-ban...one may have a threaded barrel with a removable FH...the other doesn't, or might have a permanantly affixed muzzle brake.  One allows for the attachment of a useless, poorly made "pointy thing", the other doesn't.  One costs much more than its worth, one doesn't.  However, they each function exactly alike.

For my money, the brother giving the advise to have a quality kit built "your way" hit the nail on the head.  And, there currently are quality kits available (for now, anyway) containing NEW parts, not just some dragged around, abused POS selling for an outradious amount of money because its a "pre-ban".

Quoted: Subdude: www.aimsurplus.com

Got it.....and thanks !

Also just a note.  The aftermarket Redstar/power custom trigger and hammer group is an absolute must on any AK.  For $80 it will give you a match grade trigger with no slap that will equal or exeed anything you have ever shot before on any military style rifle customized or otherwise.

5subslr5: If you went with 4 Chicom stamped prebans, here's the optics rail you'd have to install either yourself or via a good gunsmith like Troy at Inrange or Chris Butler at AK-USA:

tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstmounts.html

"KALASHNIKOV OPTICS SIDE PLATE MODEL "MPK" MPK is the latest style of Russian type AK optics rail, designed for rifles which were not originally equipped with a side mounted optics plate. It is perfect for models based on the Bulgarian AK-47M1 (SLR) series, Hungarian AKM (SA series), Maadi AKM (ARM, RPM, RML), Chinese AK (AKS,MAK90), as well as any other stamped or milled receiver AK's without factory installed side plates. This design has been modified from earlier styles to accept even more models of optics available now for use with Kalashnikov rifles. Also, an additional clearance cut enables the scope to be mounted more quickly without having to be slid on from the very end of the rail." This classic design accommodates the military quick detach (QD) system which guarantees to maintain zero with Soviet derived quick detachable sighting systems, and provides the most solid and reliable optics base known to exist for the Kalashnikov rifle. English installation instructions with schematic drawing, special installation tool, two sets of mounting screws (one for milled and one for stamped receivers) are included. Although the MTKM requires only minimum hand tools and can be installed by anyone with average mechanical skills, if you have any doubt as to how this should be done after reading the instructions, please consult the help of a machinist or gunsmith.

I tend to agree with most others though. Unless your brothers DEMAND folding stocks and flash suppressors, there is no reason to buy a preban AK.

The better route, if you want quality, is to purchase 4 Bulgarian SAM-7S rifles OR 4 AK-103s from AK-USA.

www.arsenalinc.com/
www.atlanticfirearms.com
www.ak-103.com

Atlantic has SAM-7S rifles in stock I believe. The AK-103s are Saiga conversion, but reportedly are great rifles accuracy wise. Either of these will probably out shoot any preban you'll find. The Bulgarian SAM-7 is probably the best overall, since it has a machined receiver and all the parts are made here in the US, brand new by Arsenal.

Oh, and Tantal can sell you those Kobra sights too

Quoted: ok....let me get this straight... you and your bro's are into kreighoffs, claro grade turkish walnut, nickel steel polished to a deep, rich blue and probably use parrazzis at the practice range, wouldn't dream of buying the adl when the bdl is only $250 more and ... just kidding! ok...here goes. there was only one pre-ban kalashnikov imported with a com-bloc optic mounting rail...and that is the ONLY optic mounting system that was ever worth a damn on an ak...all others are scrap, trash and junk! that would be the the yugoslavian akm's as imported by mitchell. for a fixed stock version in 95%+, better sit down for this...you are staring at $2000 and up...WAY UP!, depending on accessories. i've seen a scoped, fixed stock, nib w/all papers and accessories fetch over $3200. as for optics, i can put you in touch with a man that can get the original yugo glass...figure $800 a pop and if you order them today, 9 months from now you might have them. they are rare and are very good optics.

Like I was saying, those postbans are looking better and better !!

(....claro grade Turkish what.........??

shotar, thanks for the trigger info.

Quoted: 5subslr5: If you went with 4 Chicom stamped prebans, here's the optics rail you'd have to install either yourself or via a good gunsmith like Troy at Inrange or Chris Butler at AK-USA: tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstmounts.html tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media/mpk001.JPG tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media/xmtk01b002.JPG "KALASHNIKOV OPTICS SIDE PLATE MODEL "MPK" MPK is the latest style of Russian type AK optics rail, designed for rifles which were not originally equipped with a side mounted optics plate. It is perfect for models based on the Bulgarian AK-47M1 (SLR) series, Hungarian AKM (SA series), Maadi AKM (ARM, RPM, RML), Chinese AK (AKS,MAK90), as well as any other stamped or milled receiver AK's without factory installed side plates. This design has been modified from earlier styles to accept even more models of optics available now for use with Kalashnikov rifles. Also, an additional clearance cut enables the scope to be mounted more quickly without having to be slid on from the very end of the rail." This classic design accommodates the military quick detach (QD) system which guarantees to maintain zero with Soviet derived quick detachable sighting systems, and provides the most solid and reliable optics base known to exist for the Kalashnikov rifle. English installation instructions with schematic drawing, special installation tool, two sets of mounting screws (one for milled and one for stamped receivers) are included. Although the MTKM requires only minimum hand tools and can be installed by anyone with average mechanical skills, if you have any doubt as to how this should be done after reading the instructions, please consult the help of a machinist or gunsmith. I tend to agree with most others though. Unless your brothers DEMAND folding stocks and flash suppressors, there is no reason to buy a preban AK. The better route, if you want quality, is to purchase 4 Bulgarian SAM-7S rifles OR 4 AK-103s from AK-USA. www.arsenalinc.com/ www.atlanticfirearms.com www.ak-103.com Atlantic has SAM-7S rifles in stock I believe. The AK-103s are Saiga conversion, but reportedly are great rifles accuracy wise. Either of these will probably out shoot any preban you'll find. The Bulgarian SAM-7 is probably the best overall, since it has a machined receiver and all the parts are made here in the US, brand new by Arsenal. Oh, and Tantal can sell you those Kobra sights too

OK, got the sites marked and thanks !!

Quoted: ALL pre-ban ak's are over-valued, just as almost all other pre-ban rifles are. but, you seemed hell bent on a quality firear,...and the yugo is both astonishingly lovely (can i use that word to describe an ak?) and mechanically superior. if you want to stoop so low as to shop for a common post-ban variant, i can think of no finer way to go than to buy a 5.45 ak-74 (not 47!) parts set and let troy sellars at inrange or mike and todd at ohio's rapidfire custom build you the MODERN KALASHNIKOV...the mighty ak-74! going that route, you will end up with matching rifles, consecutive serial numbers (buying your receivers from ohio ordnance works) and you can specify the options (scope rail, furniture, fire control group) as you see fit. the price of admission? anout $600-750 dollars.

C.BOB, I know Todd........had him build a FAL maybe a year ago and was well pleased.

Alright, let's forget all this preban nonsense !!  (I told you upfront that I didn't know anything about AK's.)

Let's say we're going to buy a kit and have the rifle built.

Which kit ??  Or does the gunsmith pick/have the kit ??

Which gunsmith builds ??
What do we have put on the rifle ??

I know I can forget about bayonets and folding stocks and flash suppressors but would like a muzzle brake and some sort of light weight buttstock.  What else ??  Everyone agree with "shotar's" trigger suggestion ??  Do we stay with the Kobra scope/mount and which one ??  I'm not trying to get a match rifle but would like a reasonably accurate, reliable weapon that will introduce the bros to the AK and be fun to shoot.

(What I'll probably do is have one AK built, see how I like it and then have the others built.)

The Bulgy AK74 kit from K-varcorp.com. A OOW receiver. RSA FCG, US made pistol grip, and a US made gas piston for the needed US parts. Either send it to Troy at InRange, Todd at ORF, or Chris at AKUSA to do the build. After you get the rifle order the Kobra or a PSO scope from Tantal.

"Everyone agree with "shotar's" trigger suggestion ??"

YES!

I spent some time last night going through your old posts and that helped some more.  I think I'm to the point where I know where I need to go but may email/IM some of you for answers to specific questions.

THANKS very much for taking your time to help.  As usual, the knowledge here on AR15.com blows me away.

ar15junkie,hbarski,RS39,oberschutz916, CAMPYBOB, etc., et al., my congratulations on running a forum that contains LOTS of good information.  I've been plodding about for a day or so, including learning my ABC's, and find vast amounts of information.  This is a VERY well conceived forum.

Again my thanks to you and your members for all the help.

If you want to get bored stiff about ArmaLite AR-10's and AR-180's, I'm the mod for that forum so come down for a visit !!  

Hey, 5subslr5, welcome to the "Dark Side", as we affectionately call it. It appears that everyone else has already steered you in the right direction, but here is a refresher course:

First, if you are going with a fixed-stock, you won't gain anything but a bayonet lug by going pre-ban. Permanently-attached muzzlebrakes are legal on post-ban AK's, and most pre-ban AK's came with brakes instead of flash suppressors anyway. Second, I'd recommend the AK-74 over the AK-47. In 1974 the switch was made from 7.62X39mm to 5.45X39mm to compete with the American 5.56X45 (.223).

You need six (6) American parts on a post-ban AK variant to be 922r legal. Most people replace the cheapest 6 parts.

Here's an exact blueprint for a rifle that I just had built by In Range:

Bulgarian AK-74 parts kit with black polymer furniture from K-Var. Also pick up a US-made pistol grip (#AK-002BUS), which is identical to the Bulgarian one that comes with the kit. I'd recommend picking up this kit rather quickly, as they are known for selling out:


www.k-varcorp.com/parts.html


AKS 5.45 AK-74 receiver from Ohio Ordnance Works:

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/parts/parts.htm


Red Star Arms adjustable trigger from Power Custom:

www.powercustom.com


US-made gas piston from Tapco:

http://www.tapco.com/product_information.asp?number=AK0625&back=yes&dept=189&last=13


Optic rail and Kobra collimator sight from Tantal. I did not use the Kobra on my AK-74, but I have a Kobra for another rifle and like it:

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/



Your six American parts would be:

Ohio Ordnance Works receiver (1 part)
Red Star Arms Trigger (3 parts)
US-made pistol grip (1 part)
US-made gas piston (1 part)

I had Troy Sellers at IN RANGE assemble mine for a $225 fee, but I'm sure the other companies mentioned above would do a good job as well. All in all, I had a little over $600 in mine not including optics.

NOW YOU JUST NEED TO MULTIPLY THE ABOVE ITEMS BY FOUR!!!

Quoted: Hey, 5subslr5, welcome to the "Dark Side", as we affectionately call it. It appears that everyone else has already steered you in the right direction, but here is a refresher course: First, if you are going with a fixed-stock, you won't gain anything but a bayonet lug by going pre-ban. Permanently-attached muzzlebrakes are legal on post-ban AK's, and most pre-ban AK's came with brakes instead of flash suppressors anyway. Second, I'd recommend the AK-74 over the AK-47. In 1974 the switch was made from 7.62X39mm to 5.45X39mm to compete with the American 5.56X45 (.223). You need six (6) American parts on a post-ban AK variant to be 922r legal. Most people replace the cheapest 6 parts. Here's an exact blueprint for a rifle that I just had built by In Range: Bulgarian AK-74 parts kit with black polymer furniture from K-Var. Also pick up a US-made pistol grip (#AK-002BUS), which is identical to the Bulgarian one that comes with the kit. I'd recommend picking up this kit rather quickly, as they are known for selling out: www.k-varcorp.com/spare/spimages/BP-AK74DM.jpg www.k-varcorp.com/parts.html AKS 5.45 AK-74 receiver from Ohio Ordnance Works: http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/parts/parts.htm Red Star Arms adjustable trigger from Power Custom: www.powercustom.com US-made gas piston from Tapco: http://www.tapco.com/product_information.asp?number=AK0625&back=yes&dept=189&last=13 Optic rail and Kobra collimator sight from Tantal. I did not use the Kobra on my AK-74, but I have a Kobra for another rifle and like it: http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/ Your six American parts would be: Ohio Ordnance Works receiver (1 part) Red Star Arms Trigger (3 parts) US-made pistol grip (1 part) US-made gas piston (1 part) I had Troy Sellers at IN RANGE assemble mine for a $225 fee, but I'm sure the other companies mentioned above would do a good job as well. All in all, I had a little over $600 in mine not including optics. NOW YOU JUST NEED TO MULTIPLY THE ABOVE ITEMS BY FOUR!!!

Hey guy - thanks for the summary/refresher !!

Now guys don't think for even a second that I'm waffling on taking your advice - I'm buying postban AK-74's in 5.45, I'm buying receivers/kits and one of the gunsmith's you guys recommended will do the build.

However, I've been burning up the net looking for information on AK-74's and ran across the Rumanian Dragunov in 7.62X54.  (Admittedly old 5sub did run across a long forgotten case of Russian 7.62X54 ammunition and 'everything' doesn't have to be for the bros !)

1.  Is the Romanian Dragunov part of the AK family ??

2.Are these rifles any good ??

3. It seems that as I look around the net that Rumanian AK's are looked down upon - inferior rifles.  True or False ?  Don't see much bad said about Rumanian Dragunovs though.

4.  Is 10 rounds max mag capacity legal to use ??
-----------------------------------------------
Now to the AK-74's:

1.  I see some AK's with a skeleton stocks.  Are these stocks readily available ?? What do you think of them ??  Admittedly I'm primarily thinking of the 'cool' factor but three of my bros are built like me - long arms - and wonder if the skeleton stock might be a little longer.

2. The 5.45 round - where do you buy the ammo and is it readily available ??  

3.Does the scope recommendation change when moving from the 7.62 round to the 5.45 round or maybe you guys were always assuming 5.45 was the way to go and that I would have enough sense to follow your advice ?  I guess I'm assuming there is a BDC feature in some of these scopes.

4.  Which muzzle brake do you recommend or does this come with the kit ??

5.  You guys have recommended a trigger which I will surely use - are there any other 'custom' items that I should consider ??

I'm sure I'll have more questions and thank you for your patience.

Quoted: ...Now to the AK-74's: 1.  I see some AK's with a skeleton stocks.  Are these stocks readily available ?? What do you think of them ??  Admittedly I'm primarily thinking of the 'cool' factor but three of my bros are built like me - long arms - and wonder if the skeleton stock might be a little longer. 2. The 5.45 round - where do you buy the ammo and is it readily available ??   ... 4.  Which muzzle brake do you recommend or does this come with the kit ?? 5.  You guys have recommended a trigger which I will surely use - are there any other 'custom' items that I should consider ?? I'm sure I'll have more questions and thank you for your patience.

I can make some suggestions for the questions above, as I'm also going the kit-build route:

Skeleton/folding stocks - these can be mounted on post-bans, but they have to be permanently fixed in the open position (like fixed "collapsible" stocks on postban AR's.)

FSE makes a Krinkov-style triangular skeleton stock that counts as a US part for $59.95 (available from RPB.)  However, all of these stocks have the same length as the original wood and polymer stocks, which may be too short for long-armed people.

K-VAR has longer (by 1.25") US-made polymer buttstocks.

5.45 x 39 ammo can be found at www.ammoman.com or www.ammunitionstore.com.

The Bulgy kit has an excellent muzzle brake, but this has to be permanently attached.

Custom touches - you may consider the following:

Ironwood (US-made) wood furniture:

www.ironwooddesigns.com/

Krebs replacement rear aperture sight:



or Mojo rear aperture sight:



Good luck!

For the Romak3/Romy Drag:
The Russian Dragunov is a short stroke design and the Romak3 is a long stroke AK gas design which is not quite as inherently accurate (Campy can give more details there). Accuracy is like the best Mosins in 54r, 2moa, but at least semi-auto fire and has a scope mount. Never seen a mag for these over 10 rnds. And kinda like a std FAL, the thin bbl heats and opens groups.
For scopes: Up to 100yds and fast blasting, I say Kobra. Over 100yds and detail work, I say the PO 3.5x21 due to super glass with a crystal clear view that covers about 60 ft (12deg) at 100yds. If $230 and 2lbs is too much, get a PSO with half the weight, 6deg field of view, less clear view and cost.

Quoted: The 5.45 round - where do you buy the ammo and is it readily available???

Like mentioned above, both Ammoman and the Ammuntion Store are good sources of 5.45 ammo. "Barnaul" and "Wolf" are the two major brand offerings, but I've heard that the Barnaul offers better accuracy (which I have never personally tested). 5.45 ammo seems to be a little scarce in local stores, but is readily available online.

Does the scope recommendation change when moving from the 7.62 round to the 5.45 round or maybe you guys were always assuming 5.45 was the way to go and that I would have enough sense to follow your advice ?  I guess I'm assuming there is a BDC feature in some of these scopes.

The Kobra is a holographic-type optic similar to the Bushnell Holosight. It has 4 reticle patterns and 16 brightness settings. It has unlimited eye relief due to no magnification and offers very quick target acquisition. It is suitable for either 7.62 or 5.45. Another scope option would be the PO 3.5 X 21 (which I use). It has BDC to 1000 meters for the 5.45 round only. It is heavy, but well worth it. Also, the price is almost twice that of a Kobra. Both just slide on the optic rail and a throw lever locks them in place. They can be removed from the weapon in seconds.

Which muzzle brake do you recommend or does this come with the kit???

A muzzlebrake comes with the kit and works excellent.

Please see MY RANGE REPORT.

Quoted: Quoted: The 5.45 round - where do you buy the ammo and is it readily available??? Like mentioned above, both Ammoman and the Ammuntion Store are good sources of 5.45 ammo. "Barnaul" and "Wolf" are the two major brand offerings, but I've heard that the Barnaul offers better accuracy (which I have never personally tested). 5.45 ammo seems to be a little scarce in local stores, but is readily available online. Does the scope recommendation change when moving from the 7.62 round to the 5.45 round or maybe you guys were always assuming 5.45 was the way to go and that I would have enough sense to follow your advice ?  I guess I'm assuming there is a BDC feature in some of these scopes. The Kobra is a holographic-type optic similar to the Bushnell Holosight. It has 4 reticle patterns and 16 brightness settings. It has unlimited eye relief due to no magnification and offers very quick target acquisition. It is suitable for either 7.62 or 5.45. Another scope option would be the PO 3.5 X 21 (which I use). It has BDC to 1000 meters for the 5.45 round only. It is heavy, but well worth it. Also, the price is almost twice that of a Kobra. Both just slide on the optic rail and a throw lever locks them in place. They can be removed from the weapon in seconds. Which muzzle brake do you recommend or does this come with the kit??? A muzzlebrake comes with the kit and works excellent. Please see MY RANGE REPORT.

Thanks - I've marked your range report and will print out both that thread and this one in a couple of days.  I'm thinking I'll go with the scope you have and put-up with the extra weight.

(Actually I went on and printed out your range report.  I'm building a hard-copy file as  references for my bros and I to refer to as this project moves along.)

Some "what should I pay" questions.

K-Var - Bulg. parts kit with black......??
OOW - AKS 5.45 AK-74 receiver ???
Skeleton Stock - where to buy and how much ??

(Hope I haven't missed these prices in the thread.)

Get the kit from KVAR, about $165 delivered with the 5% online ordering discount (get more mags and a black Bulgy sling while you are at it).
OOW rec is about $60 as I recall, but I can just drive there.

Yes the Romanians are somewhat looked down upon on the net.  It has more to do with their cosmetics than with thier functionality and an AK is a form follows function proposition.  They do however make a great basis to customize, sorta like buying a Norinco 1911.  At any rate I would not be affraid of the Romanian Drag.  Just keep in mind what RS39 mentioned about them.