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Posted: 4/14/2003 5:27:48 AM EDT
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Here is a quote from a POW of the mech unit that was captured and then recently found. "The five from the 507th said they took a wrong turn in southern Iraq on March 23 and ended up in Nasiriya, where they were ambushed by Iraqi troops. Riley, the sergeant, said he felt he had no choice but to surrender his troops, whose weapons had jammed in the dust of the desert." There ya go, the almighty AR/M4 M16 whatever, at work. Nothing has changed it's still a sorry rifle for nasty combat conditions. |
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/899962.asp quote: In the swirling dust, soldiers’ rifles jammed. Pfc. Patrick Miller, 23, from suburban Wichita, began shoving rounds into his rifle one at a time, firing single shots at enemies swarming all around. Finally, it fell to Sgt. James Riley, a 31-year-old bachelor from Pennsauken, N.J., and the senior soldier present, to surrender. “We were like Custer,” he recalled today, still sounding shocked. “We were surrounded. We had no working weapons. We couldn’t even make a bayonet charge — we would have been mowed down. We didn’t have a choice, sir.” The care of the weapons may indeed of been a factor, but it still looks bad for the AR / M4 / M16 series of weapons for a failure like this to occur. I wonder if any of the poorly maintained AK's the Iraq's had failed during this firefight? Will the U.S. investigation of the firefight / capture look at the weapons issue? |
Sounds like the AK's worked fine and we have all seen the condition of thier weapons. I did not bring this up to start a AK vs AR debate. I just hope that the replacement for the M4/M-16 is designed for less than ideal conditions. |
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Excuses are like asshole, everyones got one. I noticed he didn't say, we were all scared shitless. This isn't our job. Every rifle was jammed, EVERY. I wish this guy had kept his mouth shut or kept it simple. "It was surrender or die, Sir." Nuff said. Statements like that are too hard to believe and makes him look bad and us as well. |
Exactly, my thoughts. Let's see, first of all they get lost because somebody in charge had problems reading a map and then they have to surrender because ALL of their weapons jam. Could this have been a failure of leadership rather than equipment? Or was the situation such that they were just screwed no matter what they did? Wonder why there haven't been reports of Marine or Army combat units having problems with their M16s. God knows with the number of embeded journalists any problems would have been reported over and over. {Editied, because the first time I made it sound like I was coming down on this bunch of scared kids.} |
So, did their compass jam because of sand ??  My guess is, it sounds a whole lot better to your superiors, when trying to explain what happened, if you say.....We fought valiantly sir, but our weapons jammed, instead of....we were scared and we were not trained for this. Like others have stated, no reports of any kind from the front line troops regarding weapons failures. If you ask the iraqis, I bet they think our weapons work pretty good.  |
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generally for a map to work well you must be able to see landmarks, and in a big sea of sand there are not really any landmarks. Besides, I thought that they got lost in a sand storm. Until we get off this board and go over there and fight I don't think that we can anylize their situation. I'll get off my soap box now Brad |
...I mean THEY were there....Friday they were brave...today they are being questioned?? I am sure this argument will resurface at least a few more times in the final analysis. I have yet to hear a story of an AK jamming overthere. |
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The AR-15 Taliban will go to any length to defend the mighty myth of the black socialist rifle. Let me be the first to say that this has yet been another demonstration of their radical leftist idealogy. They're worse than the communists by far. So the sergeant said their guns jammed and they were surrounded. Who says they could have fought off all those dorks in a friggin sand storm anyway? Remember guys? Perhaps that's why they got lost too. I don't think AKs would have saved them at all. It was a well thought out and executed attack by Iraqi forces. They weren't the only guys who got jumped the last month or so you know. |
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We didn't say they weren't brave we simply said that with the thousands of M16s being used in Iraq this is the first time we've heard about major malfunctions. Secondly, they were on a high way and there wasn't a sand storm, that came during the next week. They were a bunch of maintenance people who perhaps didn't think they would end up in combat, who took a wrong turn and ended up in a shit storm. Who knows what the heck happened during the gun fight but I really doubt that properly maintained and operated M16s all jammed. Maybe this will make the Army take a good look at the amount of combat training they give support troops. |
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AR type weapons jam more than AK type weapons. AK type weapons are less accurate than AR's. Operator skill and diligence can over come both deficiencies. I personally prefer to overcome accuracy issues rather than reliability issues. I would think anyone put in the same circumstances that the ex-POW’s found themselves in would think the same way. |
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All I can say is that in all the hours of war footage I have seen, I have never witnessed a single M-16 stoppage. I saw a track commander having shit fits with a .50 that was giving continuous malfunctions (It appeared he failed to set the timing properly) and a saw a Brit clearing his FN-MAG but no one doing the 'monkey fu*k**g a football' drill on a M-16 in spite of the monumental amount of footage shown. Make what you will of that. Either problems are few or FN and Colt are buying off the embedded reporters. |
There ya go, one anecdotal second hand statement and you just have to charge in and pronounce judgement. You just can't wait for a real after action review to be posted. |
Right on the money, my thoughts exactly. Heavy Metal - Your in denial man. |
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...and you are going out on a very shaky branch based on a single quote. That is not a whole lot to attach your credibility on. Much Crow is eaten by those who tread such branches. Ok: One of these statements are false as they contradict each other: All the rifles jammned. Or: I fired my weapon untill I ran out of ammo. So I ask, is Jessica Lynch a liar? |
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I'll bet that their rifles hadn't seen the light of day much since they were deployed, as they were probably stashed in the back of their trucks. I also doubt they were much mantained by a unit which didn't ever expect to encounter the enemy. The third factor was probably operator error, i.e. failure to clear jams due to lack of practice etc. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a big AK fan, but I think this sort of thing is brought up too often without considering that the Iraqi AKs, while functioning perfectly, aren't hitting much. Of course we are talking about older AK types in 7.62x39, so the newer generation of AK types isn't involved in this particular argument. |
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I am entitled to my opinion. If others do not like it, too bad. I am actually sorry that this soliders quote has caused the AR fans such grief. Especially the dissing of the mech soliders. I have owned Colt, Bushmaster and PWA AR's and they all failed more often than any of 15 different AK's I have owned. That was at a range on a bench with clean parts and good ammo. Now I am finished with this thread. It's getting too negative. When the facts come out and prove the soliders statement as false feel free to post new opinions. |
We are all entitled to an opinion but we also stake our credibility each time we express one. It's not a matter of liking or not liking. It is a matter of being able to back it up with hard evidence. There are many people out there who are of the opinion there are men in black trying to implant microchips in their butt. They are entitled to promote that opinion anytime they like but that does not make it any more of a fact just because you might happen to like that particular opinion. I will not stake my reputation on a singular anecdotal report, especially when it does not take much to wait a few days extra for the facts to come out. I am not in that big of a hurry. |
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if the man says he was single feeding...i believe him. he was there. if the lady fired untill out of ammo...i believe her. she was there. if the man says every weapon in his unit malf'd...i believe him. he was there. there is probably some truth in all of their statements. when folks are trying to kill you and you are trying to kill them...things get confused. for now, i'll keep my thoughts to myself. it was a kill zone. anything is possible. i'm just glad some of them are coming home alive. god bless those that are not. |
| I once saw a "support" unit deploy with several M60 light machine guns and some M2 Medium machine guns, when the unit go to where they were going (which was the same AO I was deployed to) they dutifully went out to the perimeter and set up thier fighting positions (which meant that they raked hte leaves off of the dirt so they would be more comfortable). The second night at this position we were woken up in the middle of the night and told to get into our fighting positions on the double. Asfter I checked my M60 to make sure everything was in order I picked up the TA312 and asked if the 60's on my sides had enough ammo, as I had about three thousand rounds in my hole, they told me they didn't have any 7.62, they didn't need it, thier 1SGT had left all of thier machine gun bolts back in the arms room. This was an Airborne "support" unit. I am still scratching my head trying to figure out what they were thinking. |
Well, maybe and maybe not. Maybe they worked fine and maybe they had failures. I wouldn't draw any conclusions just because you have not heard anything yet. Wait until after the troops are back home and sending out emails to friends and family. Let's see in a few months if they have any stories of jams and other failures. I would be very surprised if none pop up. I do remember seeing MANY pics of troops breaking down their rifles in the field to clean them. I can't count how many times I have read on the various forums from AR fans (and I really like the rifle too, just for the record) that the rifle is "very reliable with proper maintenance." I like AKs because they are 'extremely' reliable with proper maintenance, no maintenance, and everything in-between. |
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For the record, an AK with poor maintenance will not perform well in combat conditions, an AK treated to no maintaenance will not perform at all for long in battle. I have heard as many urban legends about the thousands of rounds fired between cleanings from AKs, but I have never seen this feat performed on a battle field. I have seen a dead Honduran with the pieces of a field stripped AK around his corpse, from the look of the pieces he had also heard the urban legends about not having to clean his weapon of choice. edited to add: For a soldier regardless of his specialty, weapons maintenance is esential, knowing his weapon is essential, and understanding how to take care of his weapon under different conditions is essential. I do not think anybody should cut these guys any slack beacuse they were captured, that is part of being a soldier, whether you are a cook or a fighter pilot it is the soldiers responsibility to be proficient with thier issued weapon, and if you do not claen your weapon and routinly check it to ensure it is readily available then you are not proficient with your weapon. These guys and women have my deepest respect as does anyone who risks thier lives in the service of thier country, but being captured does not give you a by on the mistakes you made. It may very well be that they would not have made it out anyway, but to blame your weapons is not a good excuse, especially when the guy making the excuse is an NCO who has had proper training on the use and care of an M16A2 rifle, if he didn't get it in basic he got it in PLDC where it doesn't matter what your MOS is everybody gets the same training, and you don't get your third stripe without PLDC. If these guys rifles did fail then it is thier NCOs fault more than anything else, the privates will do as they are told and learn whatever they are taught, so if they are trained with the notion that they will never have to fight then it is thier NCOs fault, likewise if they are not trained to take care of thier weapons then it is also thier NCOs fault. I was in a non combat arms field, the Signal Corps, but at no point was I ever under the impression that I would be excluded from combat, maybe that was because there were many NCOs with Infantry backgrounds in the units I happened to be assigned to (except in Korea where most of the NCOs thought they wree on vacation from the Air Force). Maybe my idea of how "support troops" should train is skewed by the fact that most of my military career was spent in a Signal Unit that made a point of keeping a tactical bearing, and making sure that all assigned personell were trained to fight, maybe not as well trained as the Infantry guys (OK definatly) but we were trained to fight and from time to time we were called on to do so, and quite often we were in very close proximity to the fighting, often we were in front of the grunts. |
| AK/AR I don't think this is really an issue,,,as much as WHY ANY OF OUR FELLOW AMERICANS ARE SHEDDING BLOOD OVER AN ISSUE THAT COULD AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED BY A FEW SORTIES OF LOWLEVEL EXTREME ACCURACY DROPS OF (TAKE YOUR PICK),,,WE DO HAVE A SUPREME POLITICAL POWER THAT ASSURED US ON (9-11) AMERICANS DON'T TAKE THIS LIGHTLY, AND I BELIEVE I HEARD THE MAN SAY ANYONE OR ANY COUNTRY THAT WAS HARBORING OR HELPING THE ACT OF TERORISIM WOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. So I will stop hollering, and ask each and everyone of ya'll. Why do we allow our on government to act so foolishly and nonchalant with our childrens, parents, spouses, hell for that matter even ourselves lives and we are still right here at home. Man it sure does make me wonder what it will take to liberate the good ol USA. |
| Just a quick comment. I trained on the M16A1 and M16A2 . I found them to be very reliable and accurate. I trained for desert warfare while stationed at Fort Lewis. I was in 4/23 Infatry. I can only think of a few jams I ever had and it was with a Banged up mag and a few while fireing Blanks.I never had any troubles with the rifles in the desert. Now Im sure the sand is prabaly finer over there. Ive had the oppsite experiance with my AK's vs my AR's. Ive had more jams with the AK's . But the number was still small. The USA has the better rifle in the M16.Thats no dout. But Im sure a improved rifle design could be thought up. I really like the AK gas system but really hate the safety lever and how you inguage the rifle from safe to fire.And the old outdated blade site is a setback. But I am injoying collect this type rifles and have no problem with one of them guarding my life and my familys.WD |
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I've never understood why the military didn't get the AR18 for sand conditions. Lots of interchangable parts with the 16. I'm wary of any new weapon to replace the AR until we really have a quantum leap forward in design. Does anyone know how the new Soviet rifle is doing? munk |
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and I'm still wondering how the Brit gun does in the desert... I forget the official UK designation for the 5.56 bullpup the British use now. I remember reading ( I think it was a SOF article ) about some problems the Brits had in Gulf War 1 with the bullpup. I think the problems were with the gas tube, hinged gas tube cover, etc. But supposedly all these minor problems were fixed afterwords. There was video shown recently using a night vision scope of some British forces firing on a house in Southern Iraq. The British emptied quite a few rounds into the House using the 5.56 bullpups and what appeared to be a 7.62 FN MAG. |
Belloc.... you are correct I do need to cut those scared kids a lot of slack and I didn't mean to sound like I was coming down on them. No matter how they got there they were in the crap. I apologize for giving the impression that I was coming down on those troops. What set me off was the idea that the capture of this unit was due to the failure of their equipment, when in fact it seems to be a combination of factors most of can be attributed to a failure of leadership. Hopefully the Army will take a long look at this action and perhaps make some changes. |
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from the few reports i've read, the brits are doing the same high maintainance cleaning cycles that we are. i've heard nothing about the reliability of the current l-85/sa-80 reworked bullpups. Does anyone know how the new Soviet rifle is doing? despite it's complexity, reports are coming back with favorable reliability...but, remember these are not combat conditions. the an-94 weapon has been the commercial market since 1998 and the izhmash version has only recently hit the market...and i have not read anything about its' service use. |
Excellent point. Can't have it both ways. |
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Everyone criticizes debate about cobat and military maneuvers. However, let's remember that this is a gunboard made up largely of vets. Not only that but it is a gunboard for AR's and AK's for crying out loud. What do you expect us to talk about? Flower arrangements? Geez. Based on limited info so far you have to question leadership. Who else bears most of the responsibility. Got lost Can't read a compass GPS????? Weapons ALL malfunction??????? If this were all true and I were in command I might expect a court martial. |
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The AR works fine for me where I live. No deserts and no blowing dust to worry about. So whether or not the AK is better than the AR in such conditions is meaningless to me. If I decide to move to Iraq then I might take a look at the AK! But I hope some clear picture of what took place in the 507th's firefight comes into view. Whether it was poor training, lack of leadership, or whatever. Then maybe it can be corrected and lessen the chances of a similar incident taking place again. The one thing nobody has brought up yet is why supporting arms weren't brought to bear on the enemy. Seems there would have been plenty of air and arty in the area if there had been someone calling it in. Anyone else thought about this? |
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