AK Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - General AK accuracy question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/19/2012 9:40:10 AM EDT
|
Yeah, I know, accuracy and AK don't belong in the same sentence. I'd like to be able to get at least 4 MOA reliably with something like Silver Bear, or whatever the rifle ends up preferring (3 would be great but I'm not counting on it). Are the more expensive AKs like Arsenals known to be consistently more accurate than the cheap ones like the Wasr 10, or is the difference in cost mainly an issue of better finishing? |
|
I hit what I aim at from 0-100 yards. All I'm concerned about. 2 WASR 10/63's.
I can hit clay pigeons or soda cans out to 100 yards. Sometimes it may take a few shots to get them, but that is me, not the gun. I do wish there were longer ranges I could test with but I don't have any around. |
|
Quoted:
Are the more expensive AKs like Arsenals known to be consistently more accurate than the cheap ones like the Wasr 10, or is the difference in cost mainly an issue of better finishing? No, they aren't more accurate. A more expensive AK is all about fit and finish (or rarity). 4-6moa is pretty typical of a 7.62 AK. My old 5.45 one would do 2moa occasionally.. but 3-4moa was more common. |
| My experience with my SGL-31 has been 2-4 MOA using a Vortec Sparc at 100 yards with 7N6. Mind you that at that range, the reddot is almost covering the entire target. I've thought about getting a MI picatinny side mount rail and mounting a 3-9x scope just to see what its actually capable of. Regardless, I've never had an AK, 7.62 or 5.45, that hasn't been able to print decent groups. |
| My experience has been similar to what others have already said. 7.62 AK's tend to be good for roughly 5 moa, and 5.45 tend to be able to do 2 moa pretty regularly, if the shooter does his part. There are exceptions though. I shot a yugo 7.62 one that would do 2 moa groups a while back. That's a rare thing. |
| My SGL-20 is 3 MOA with Wolf all day long. I can hit pretty much anything I want out to 250-300 yards. At 100 yards I hit soda cans almost every time; when I miss, it’s not the rifle, it’s the loose nut behind the trigger. With Federal or Winchester ammunition my groups open up almost another MOA…Apparently Russian AK’s like Russian ammo. |
|
With my Romanian AKM which is straight from the factory I can hit 12g shotgun shells at 50m 8 times out of ten with iron sights and Soviet milsurp ammo, and can get 50 rounds in an area about the size of a pack of 20 smokes.I would say the Romanian is as, if not a bit more accurate than my Izhmash 104.
I put it down to the fact that as I am in the UK and both my AK's are straight pull with the gas system disabled this improves the accuracy no end as there is no inertia from the gas piston/bolt carrier flying back. |
|
Quoted:
My old 5.45 one would do 2moa occasionally.. but 3-4moa was more common. I don't shoot 7.62 but the last time I was in Austin with Nictra I had about a 75% hit rate on a 1/2 man size target at 500m with my SGL31 when using 1P29 and 1P78 Kashtan. Plenty accurate enough for me Z |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the more expensive AKs like Arsenals known to be consistently more accurate than the cheap ones like the Wasr 10, or is the difference in cost mainly an issue of better finishing? No, they aren't more accurate. A more expensive AK is all about fit and finish (or rarity). 4-6moa is pretty typical of a 7.62 AK. My old 5.45 one would do 2moa occasionally.. but 3-4moa was more common. Yup, for 5-shot groups. That is a 25" group at 500 for the 7.62's and 15" for the better/best of loads from a 5.45. However, both calibers are severely effected by wind, so mere mathematical interpolations to 400 or 500 from 100 performance are not in order. Go shoot at 400 or 500 and see for yourself. In fact, go shoot three 5-shot groups at 300 meters sometime with the best of both calibers, best ammo, best sights/optics and see what you come up with. This is of course well known and demonstrated in Ordnance testing, but much of such work somehow doesn't make it to the forums. Our work here at up to 1,000 meters on my place is...in line with Ordnance testing, not the claims of some on the forums. Anyway, shoot the rifles at the various distances and see for yourself who tells the truth on these forums. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the more expensive AKs like Arsenals known to be consistently more accurate than the cheap ones like the Wasr 10, or is the difference in cost mainly an issue of better finishing? No, they aren't more accurate. A more expensive AK is all about fit and finish (or rarity). 4-6moa is pretty typical of a 7.62 AK. My old 5.45 one would do 2moa occasionally.. but 3-4moa was more common. Yup, for 5-shot groups. That is a 25" group at 500 for the 7.62's and 15" for the better/best of loads from a 5.45. However, both calibers are severely effected by wind, so mere mathematical interpolations to 400 or 500 from 100 performance are not in order. Go shoot at 400 or 500 and see for yourself. In fact, go shoot three 5-shot groups at 300 meters sometime with the best of both calibers, best ammo, best sights/optics and see what you come up with. This is of course well known and demonstrated in Ordnance testing, but much of such work somehow doesn't make it to the forums. Our work here at up to 1,000 meters on my place is...in line with Ordnance testing, not the claims of some on the forums. Anyway, shoot the rifles at the various distances and see for yourself who tells the truth on these forums. TX-Zen, Nictra, and Liquidmetal are members I trust with their statements and findings. I don't know too many small arms cartridges that are not affected by wind. I had a hell of a time with a full value wind from the 3 to 9 o'clock position at approximately 20mph in Rawah, Iraq. Rifle used was an MK14SSR with M118LR. My spotter was giving me flak until I loaded a tracer round to show him how bad the wind was. That being said, not many of us have the time, place, or funds to conduct an ordnance level type testing. The "A" in AK stands for automatic rifle, a rifle designed to operate in Russia's worst climates with minimal maintenance. I don't understand why people are obsessed with MOA accuracy out of an Kalashnikov. Tools and their uses gents. |
| Couldn't tell you what MOA I'm getting from my SGL 21 with TRS-25, but I can hit clay targets at 100 yards from a bench (no benchrest or sandbags) without too much effort. Standing up and completely unsupported I can hit paper on a silhouette target out to 100 yards without taking more than a second or so between shots (I'm not claiming every shot hits paper). I haven't tried out further but I'm sure I could get out to 150 yards judging by the 100-yard groupings. For me, I'm not looking for much more in an AK. Anything further would be AR territory. |
| Me and the son went out to the range and set up at 100 yards on reactive steel targets. Both of our AK's hitting the reactive head and heart shots at will. Both of us are running red dots on them and the rifles performed excellent. I would love to run them out to 200 then 300 yard marks- but we didn't have the range to do it. |
|
Quoted:
Milled receiver AK's are the ones your going to see stand out from the group for accuracy IMO and in my personal experience. This guy gets it. I just read a test on Arsenal milled 101s and they were getting 2 1/2 inch groups with a scope. Also I have an old test lying around where they got under 2 inches with a scoped Vepr 223. Those have a heavy barrel and heavy stamped receiver. |
|
Quoted:
With my 14" tall steel silhouette target at 300 yards, 27/30 with open sights from my aks-74 with bulgarian and russian surplus ammo. That's outstanding, i'd be plenty happy with that, can't ask for much more from a basic battle rifle with plain ol' go-to ammo. |
| Hit and miss, brand is irrelevant. I've only shot my two AKs (WASRs) on the short range (max 125 yards) and one is I guess typical AK accurate, which is minute of man at 100, but not anything to brag about. The other one; however, is silly good AR accurate and has no problem engaging small targets in the 100-125 yard range with repeatable and consistent hits. Id consider it atypical from all I have read. Your gun and mileage may vary... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
With my 14" tall steel silhouette target at 300 yards, 27/30 with open sights from my aks-74 with bulgarian and russian surplus ammo. That's outstanding, i'd be plenty happy with that, can't ask for much more from a basic battle rifle with plain ol' go-to ammo. I'd never done anything beyond 25-yard quick-reaction stuff with it, so i was ding dang doodley surprised when that happened. Threw in another mag, pulled a couple shots, but that one was 24/30. Hopefully the next few builds are equally delightful. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the more expensive AKs like Arsenals known to be consistently more accurate than the cheap ones like the Wasr 10, or is the difference in cost mainly an issue of better finishing? No, they aren't more accurate. A more expensive AK is all about fit and finish (or rarity). 4-6moa is pretty typical of a 7.62 AK. My old 5.45 one would do 2moa occasionally.. but 3-4moa was more common. Yup. 
And I have not found accuracy to be linked to whether the receiver was stamped or milled. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
MAC tested the Beryl clone and got a hair over 1 MOA with irons and M193. Oh boy, here come the trolls!!!  You rang??? 
There's actually a lot less bullshit in here than most accuracy threads, so far. I just wish that when people start these threads (five times a week), they'd specify caliber. That would at least reduce the confusion, BS and lies just a little bit. Maybe. 
|
| Also, to answer one of your questions, the 100 series was "supposed" to have better accuracy as one of the enhancements of the kalashnikov. So the sgl series from arsenal should have alittle better accuracy overall but like others have said, they vary alot due to being mostly hand fitted. I think the arsenal's have better consistency than the romanians or chinese as far as accuracy but im not sure the accuracy is substantially better. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Milled receiver AK's are the ones your going to see stand out from the group for accuracy IMO and in my personal experience. This guy gets it. I just read a test on Arsenal milled 101s and they were getting 2 1/2 inch groups with a scope. Also I have an old test lying around where they got under 2 inches with a scoped Vepr 223. Those have a heavy barrel and heavy stamped receiver. no he doesnt. Arsenal has been using this statement to sell milled receivers for years. It is true? no. Most accurate AK that i own are all stamped. And both 5,45. Both Veprs both 16 inch barrel. Of course they have polished match grade tiggers and a Both will hold MOA with 1982 7N6. Hornady Vmax is just around the corner those who know me, already know this. This whole myth of AKs being inaccurate has been floating around for a long time. When I was working with Krebs prototypes last year for the Book of the AK, I was getting groups that most people will call you a liar. However that was in 6,5.Grednel the AK is far more accurate that most people give it credit. Trigger time, good ammo and nice MOLOT RPK barrel is where its at. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
MAC tested the Beryl clone and got a hair over 1 MOA with irons and M193. Oh boy, here come the trolls!!! You rang???
There's actually a lot less bullshit in here than most accuracy threads, so far. I just wish that when people start these threads (five times a week), they'd specify caliber. That would at least reduce the confusion, BS and lies just a little bit. Maybe.
My 5.56 AK shoots 1/4moa one shot groups at 100m. No joke. |
|
CE Harris {a highly respected technical authority whose work is respected throughout the industry} tested various M74 ammunition back in the early '80's at Aberdeen Proving Ground. One of the tests included 1976 lot ammunition from USSR Factory 60. A Mann test barrel was made up {I believe it was set up on a Universal Receiver} and 4 MOA grouping was obtained. In his report he does not state number of shots fired or range at which the shooting took place, but based on much of his other technical work I am pretty confident in stating that he used ten-shot groups at 100 YARDS. AK74 rifles obtained in Afghanistan were stated to produce nearly the same accuracy.
Bullet quality was subsequently determined to be the limiting factor as when the M74 bullets were replaced with 53 grain Sierra's, group size fell to 3/4 MOA, which would be true MOA, not the results of one 3- or 5-shot group or selected shots "discounting shooter-called flyers"... Here are some groups fired from my old SAR2. These are not bench groups, but fired from a field position. Bench groups fired from the same rifle give somewhat better results but I couldn't find the pix to demonstrate that. Rifle had an RPK rear sight and a polished factory trigger and "NATO-length" KVAR buttstock but otherwise was in original factory condition {except for paint}. Cleaning rod was commonly removed for range testing, but wired in place during use. The rifle was never particularly babied, in fact was beatup which never seemed to bother either its functioning {no surprise there} or accuracy. I did not use it for hunting. It was used for ranch work {butcher stock killing, killing stock chasing dogs, etc} and was carried on many miles of remote ski treks in the mountains and thus subjected to very harsh environmental conditions over the ten years I had it. Some say "the accuracy of my AK is adequate for my purposes". That was true for some time for me, but over the years became less so due to dramatically changing land/timber management policies and the need to be prepared for longer range use on wolves so I got rid of it a while back. I THINK this rifle represents "average" accuracy for 5.45x39 rifles; somewhat better than some, worse than others. For that reason here are some pix. 
Some more which represents approximately 2-3 MOA from a field position under less than perfect conditions; Shooting position; 
Groups; 
Nondescript target, conditions worsening; 
Lots of memories with that rifle... 
The best way to find out if a rifle and shooter will shoot is to for the shooter to shoot it. |
| 7.62x39 AK with iron sights should be good for 2" at 50 yards with the right ammo without too much trouble. Really hunkering down and doing everything right could cut that in half, but you would need good vision to do it. Yugo M67 is good at a good price (but corrosive), along with Golden Tiger (non-corrosive). To get appreciably better ammo, you have to get the more expensive brass case stuff and/or do handloads. But assuming good shooter technique and good rifle condition, it is all about the ammo. |
|
Thanks.
Various methods have been used to "accurize" AK's but if the rifles were easier to rebarrel it would be very interesting to simply screw on a well-bored 7/8" or 1" straight tube bull barrel of 18-20 inch or so length and see what happens with the various ammunition available. One of the main problems with the AK is a common problem with many self loaders {notably reported with the US .30 cal M1 Carbine} and that is the damaging effect of the gas block to proper barrel harmonics. Possibly the simple expedient of a very heavy barrel might make for an interesting experiment. Frankly, I THINK a 16" HEAVY-barrel 5.45 might surprise some folks. Someday we might get some really good quality ammunition spun out by the companies in reloadable brass, etc, and the accuracy gun-nuts might have a field day with the things. Until that happens I think overall, just about all AK-shooters are going to be stuck with 3-5 MOA {maybe 2 for a few very select rifles} in the 5.45 and somewhat larger in the ".30-caliber" AK's. A shame IMO because the handling characteristics of the AK are actually better {again, IMO} than those of the AR {its biggest competition} and AK triggers are just as excellent and easily improved as are the triggers of the rifle triggers that spawned them, the Remington Model 8 and Garand. Some day maybe we will see some rifles to compete with the AR for varmint killers like myself. There ARE some inherent design challenges to for the AK to overcome, but given the chance, maybe they can be. |
heres what my cheap wasr 1063m (cugir built) can dish out...at least in my hands and eyes, not the best shot but in more capable hands probably could be better
and heres the 1063 first time at 100y using irons, first shots marked with "1"  then took my time and changed my poa=10 shots
never owned an arsenal or saiga |
|
Quoted:
As for the previously mentioned heavy barrel 5.45 guns; what about the VEPR's? The VEPR is not what I was referring to, but rather, an experiment with a bull/straight tube barrel. It would require reworking a gas block, but otherwise shouldn't be too difficult to make. Such a barrel would eliminate much of the variable stresses the gas block causes to the standard gun barrel. My curiosity was stirred by, again, CE Harris, who did such work with Mosin-Nagants back in the '80's. I've always been surprised that most all AK owners seem so little interested in wringing the most accuracy from their rifles. But then, when I owned them I had a similar attitude. I was curious about tricking the rifles, but in the end when my need for an accurate semi-auto emerged, I simply got rid of the guns. Now that they are gone I am again curious as to what might be obtained tricking the rifles. True MOA performance is rare from AR's which is an inherently easier rifle from which to obtain accuracy. It is almost non-existent in AK's, particularly with surplus ammo which itself is incapable of producing match accuracy. And we all know a rifle can't make the ammo any more accurate than the ammo already is. Before I sold my AK's, I obtained two scope mounts, one a Belarussian military job and the other I don't recall. They fit the rails very well but lateral movement was obvious due to the thinness of the stamped receivers themselves. The rifle could be held firmly and the scope mount "pried" left and right, with very little pressure, and the flex of the mount against the receiver was easily observed. I always wondered about that, and the possibility that A} the receiver could be compromised due to bump, altering the zero of the scope B} the scope slopping about might in and of itself produce variables in impact. I have not read of anyone reporting such problems, but then, with more or less 4 MOA performance such might not be readily obvious. |
|
OP, your question is exactly why I am so utterly puzzled at the acolytes who sell their AR's to buy AK's. I just don't get, and never will. Having said that, I just bought a Vepr 12. It's logical range is 40 yards or so, which is all I consider useful with most AK's anyway. |
|
In my opinion, the stories of AK inaccuracy is one of low expectations and subsequent lack of the application of basic shooting skills...breathing control, sight picture, and trigger pull.
I have posted this pic before. It is my Yugo M70 UF built from a serb war parts kit by Ken Kubin. It has the original Yugo barrel, which was in good shape on this kit. The pic shows two five round groups at 100yds, separated by a sight adjustment. I was using the iron sights, and Golden Tiger FMJ. At the time I was shooting, a heavy downpour of rain was coming down, making it difficult to see the bullseye. I was shooting off a bench, with my offhand resting on my shooting box, which is an old metal tool box. BTW, the first time I shot this Yugo, a high power rifle competitor was shooting his CMP M1 Garand...he was all decked out in leather shooting jacket, eyeglass shade, etc, and shooting off his special shooting pad with rifle slung, and with his spotting scope set up, checking each shot. While friendly, he did make some disparaging remarks about the accuracy of AK's. Imagine his surprise (and mine, frankly), when we walked down to pull our 100yd targets, and my groups were noticeably smaller and well centered...he made a comment about "poor quality CMP HXP 30-06 ammo"...at that point, in view of his earlier comments, I couldn't resist responding that bulk 7.62x39 steel case must be a better buy... 
|
|
I posted an interesting 600 yard range report a few years ago, using a Polish underfolder, iron sights, and 7.62x39 Wolf. You can see it HERE. I just checked, and all but one of the pics are still up.
Long story short, at 600 yards I was able to get nine hits out of 30, on a human silhouette, under good conditions. At 300 I got 29 of 30. |
|
Vepr .308 16.5" barrel, factory iron sights@100 yards, WPA steel cased 145 gr. FMJ:
Close enough 
Next two opened up some, twitchy me, bad eyes, and bees.
Need to get a sight tool and quit jerking around with holdover/under, but those are head shots every time at 100 with the big .308, seems acceptable to me in a battle rifle, reckon I could nail a silhouette most every time out to 250 or so, more with a scope. |
|
This thread is a really good demonstration of the general accuracy expectations a guy can have for AK's. Some of the last few posts have demonstrated excellent shooting skill and very good guns.
None of them are MOA, or even close. While MOA accuracy is not needed for some practical purposes, I myself, and many others I believe, agree with old Col Townshend Whelen who said "Only accurate rifles are interesting". There is a reason. Those of use who spend a lot of time in the field {myself, all year long} know that a 4 MOA rifle can be a severe limitation in both wooded and open country, the latter due to potential need for extended range, the former due to the need to "thread the needle" thru bullet-turning brush. Thus, most hunters and varmint shooters find the limitations of most AK's to be deal breakers. I myself use 3-shot groups for a lot of sighting and rough testing purposes, for rough zeroing, etc, but three shot groups do not demonstrate the full accuracy potential of a rifle, mathematically or otherwise. They do demonstrate useful accuracy for many types for various types of close-range shooting; break action single shots, doubles {tho 4 are usually used there} and for semiauto hunting rifles. The reason is, of course, that all of these types tend to suffer from heat buildup and accuracy quickly goes to pot. I personally have never seen a TRUE MOA AK or AK derivative, and do not know anyone who has, either. Not saying it isn't possible, but it is rare as a gold-filled hen's tooth. An AK that is capable of double that; 2 MOA the sum of ten shots or average of three 5-shot groups is very rare as well, tho more in the realm of the possible. Keep 'em coming guys. A great, civil thread and one demonstrating excellent shooting by quite a number of members. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - General AK accuracy question (Page 1 of 2)
AK Sponsor