AK Sponsor
Posted: 11/12/2011 5:51:53 PM EDT
|
I am sure this is a dupe, but I cannot get results using the search, so here goes........I am expanding my collection with several firearms, so if I have any question, I am asking them in the appropriate forums. I would like an AK-type rifle. I have experience using them in the field, mainly abroad. I have no idea of the origin of the models I used, as they each were different, but most were confiscated former military weapons, although a few were from civilians as well. I have been looking around at various manufacturers but really like the Arsenal SGL-21.............I had a chance to get one at cost, since I help my best friend who owns his own local Funshop. After looking at the model on closeout, it was a CA complaint model, so I did not get it.
Is the Arsenal SGL-21 of good quality? How does it fair compared to others? What type of accuracy should I expect? (Knowing that AK accuracy is not that of a precision rifle or even an AR) I would like to buy the best that I can, and am only minimally worried about cost. I do not want a pre-ban model, and prefer a new rifle. I want it to be as dependable as possible and prefer that it uses standard AK-47 magazines. I examined my friend's CZ/ VZ58 and liked it alright, but was not too thrilled about the magazines being readily available everywhere. But if it is far superior to the AK design, I might give it a try, just depends on what I hear back from you guys, as to your opinions and such. Krebs customs are alright as well, but I am not sure if there is really much to be gained spending another 500 or so over the price of an Arsenal. It will probably be left as an open sight rifle, so optic attachment is not a problem. I also like the Arsenal M7 Classic, but again is there a 1200 dollar difference as compared to the SGL21? Let me know what you all have learned or what you like, my mind is open. Thank You, -PC- |
|
The concept of "quality" is completely subjective, especially when the object you're applying the adjective to is an infantry rifle designed to arm an army of millions as inexpensively as was possible and still have a reliable and effective weapon.
If you like the Arsenal, buy it. If you like the milled receiver rifle, buy it. Neither will be more reliable than a properly assembled less expensive AK. Either may be more accurate than a less expensive AK, but they may not be. Make yourself happy by purchasing the rifle that best fits your needs and desires. 
|
|
Arsenal SGL's are currently probably the best out-of-box AKs you can get for the money. The Saiga platforms they are converted from are manufactured on Russian equipment.
Accuracy is limited by the 7.62x39 round. The best accuracy you'll likely see is 2-3moa if you're a good shooter. The SA-M7's are US milled receivers, which you pay a premium for. They are also a little heavier. |
| The VZ-58 is the cream of the crop. It's a high speed system. Lighter than a stamped AK even though it's milled, and you can load the rifle via stripper clips. Recoil is less than an AK as well. It's definitely on my short list of rifles to get. On that same list is an SLR-95 and a Chinese Type 56. Both great AKs. Nothing wrong with the SGL-21 either. I have an SGL-31 and it runs flawless. |
|
Quoted:
Arsenal SGL's are currently probably the best out-of-box AKs you can get for the money. The Saiga platforms they are converted from are manufactured on Russian equipment. Accuracy is limited by the 7.62x39 round. The best accuracy you'll likely see is 2-3moa if you're a good shooter. The SA-M7's are US milled receivers, which you pay a premium for. They are also a little heavier. .......this....made in Russia by the same military arms producer that makes them for the Russian military and export. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Arsenal SGL's are currently probably the best out-of-box AKs you can get for the money. The Saiga platforms they are converted from are manufactured on Russian equipment. Accuracy is limited by the 7.62x39 round. The best accuracy you'll likely see is 2-3moa if you're a good shooter. The SA-M7's are US milled receivers, which you pay a premium for. They are also a little heavier. .......this....made in Russia by the same military arms producer that makes them for the Russian military and export. So are they more reliable than other AKs? More accurate than other AK? 
Really, it's not an AK unless it's assembled by a peasant with vodka on his breath. Are drunken Russian peasants better than all other drunken peasants? |
|
Please, are we going to go into the peasant discussion again?
An AK is an AK is an AK, but Arsenal is still top tier in terms of fit. The bolt carrier has no noticeable slop running up and down the receiver rails, nor side to side. My American receivered kit builds have some slop in them, which makes the bcg rattle. I hate that. These aren't made by drunken peasants. Maybe Century bought them all for their factories. They are generally accurate and good to go. 2-3 MOA at 100 yards, probably a bit better if you're trying. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
but with Ak's you get what you pay for So your rifle is more than 100% reliable? Maybe not 100% but in certain cases arsenal rifles are X10 better than the alternative It's more accurate than EVERY other AK? NO and it doesn't need to be, its a AK not a AR Or it's just more expensive? Yes but its all new parts from a reliable manufacturer (and in my thinking thats all that counts) hate all you want im not going to recommend a new guy a firearm that I do not trust OP just get a saiga (if you want to do a conversion later) |
|
Not new to Aks, just new to paying money for my own....................I do not expect anything better than minute-of-communist. I have been trying to keep an eye on surplus cans of ammunition, but last month CTD had it on the front page of their mailout catalog, now it is gone. I thought the supplies of ammunition had been restocked, but I see unless it is the higher priced stuff, it is hard to find....bummer. Oh well, I still can get stocked up on all of the other goodies besides ammo I guess. If anyone knows of a good source by all means let me know.
I am leaning toward a SGL-21 as I do not see paying the price for the classic, even though it looks nice, I just cannot justify the difference, which will allow me to get the Arsenal and the VZ-58. So in typical Arfcom fashion I will probably get both. Thank you for the opinions and experience! -PC- |
|
Realistically, all properly assembled AKs work the same. Same reliability, same accuracy. A higher price just gets your a prettier rifle. No way around that. I'm an Arsenal fan but I know that side by side to a WASR, my rifle is basically just better looking and the are equal in all other ways.
I had a SAM7 classic before. Beautiful rifle, but they are not worth the current $2,000 price tag at all. If you're looking at spending that much on an AK, get a Polytech Legend. I'd love to have a classic again, but I would never pay what they want for them these days. |
|
I have either owned, shot and held almost every type / brand of AK in the US. Botton Line is that a well made AK of any brand is probably as good as a well make AK of any other brand. The big problem is that the AKs that we get in the US are not all well made. Arsenal has a much better record of making well made AKs than some other companies.
So...Yes, the SGL21-61 (7.62.39) is a very good AK. Is it worth $800.00...NO, but I bought one and love it anyway. Is it better built and more accuratle than most...Yes. Here is a picture of mine with some targets. 25yds, 100yds and 200 yds. I zero'ed in at 25 yds and shot at those other ranges w/out changing the elevation. These were not sand bagged shots. Some kneeling and some rested against a bench. The size of the cardboard on the 200 yd target is 15X30 iches about the standard size of an adults torso (all shots hit at 200 yds). 
|
|
Quoted:
for shits and giggles I'm going to open another can of worms... have you thought about 5.45x39mm? Just bought one a few days ago. FANTASTIC. There is no way I could live with the out of the box quality of a WASR - the wood, the finish, the possible canted sights, mag wobble, ect. By the time you get done fixing it up - you might as well have bought an Arsenal. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
for shits and giggles I'm going to open another can of worms... have you thought about 5.45x39mm? Just bought one a few days ago. FANTASTIC. There is no way I could live with the out of the box quality of a WASR - the wood, the finish, the possible canted sights, mag wobble, ect. By the time you get done fixing it up - you might as well have bought an Arsenal. +1 The difference is night and day. Anyone disputing that has to be as blind as Ray Charles. |
|
I've owned several AKs in my time. The first was a WASR. It was rough, not very accurate or particularly well made. I sold it because it wasn't a very good gun.
Then I bought a 5.45mm AKS-74U and had it SBR'd. It was built by god-knows-who, and isn't perfect. The front sight's a little crooked, the trigger is pretty poor and prone to spontaneous bumpfiring, and the bolt sticks to the rear when you hand cycle it. It's not a bad gun. I still have it, but I'd have done it differently if I had known better and gone with a reputable builder. I've had friends show me their crappy Century Arms WASRs and the quality was poor as well, but they didn't know better and were happy blasting dirt. I, however was visited by the Clue Fairy and I realized that you get what you pay for. Now I have an Arsenal SGL-31 61 in 5.45 and it runs like a fucking top. It's accurate, smooth, consistent, well made, built properly, etc. It's the gun I should have bought the first time. I still want a VZ-58 too, but that's a ways off. They're pretty incredible guns from what I can tell. |
|
Quoted:
The concept of "quality" is completely subjective, especially when the object you're applying the adjective to is an infantry rifle designed to arm an army of millions as inexpensively as was possible and still have a reliable and effective weapon. If you like the Arsenal, buy it. If you like the milled receiver rifle, buy it. Neither will be more reliable than a properly assembled less expensive AK. Either may be more accurate than a less expensive AK, but they may not be. Make yourself happy by purchasing the rifle that best fits your needs and desires. This sums it up in a nutshell. The "best" rifle is all in the eye of the beholder and their idea of what is important to them. My personal opinion is that Arsenals are way overrated and overpriced for what they are, which is just a converted Saiga and then painted. A WASR is also built "over there" and is converted here to make it 922 compliant and take standard AK mags. Both have .milspec parts (except 922 compliance parts), a new .milspec CHF CL barrel, and are both made "over there". The finish is usually crappy on a WASR but as long as it's assembled properly it will perform the same as an Arsenal or any other AK. Yes they are ugly but you can clean them up quite easily into a very nice looking rifle and it makes an enjoyable project in doing so. There are some here saying Arsenal is the "best there is" to which I would argue a Norinco MAK90 is hands down nicer than an Arsenal any day of the week, so is my SAR-1. So OP decide what is important to you and go from there. |
|
Quoted:
There are some here saying Arsenal is the "best there is" to which I would argue a Norinco MAK90 is hands down nicer than an Arsenal any day of the week, so is my SAR-1. As the owner of several Arsenal rifles and a MAK90, I’d have to agree with that. Arsenal rifles are generally well-built and have good fit and finish, but the MAK90 is even better built, with better fit and finish. In particular, the action (both the trigger pull and bolt carrier movement) in the MAK90 is much smoother than anything I’ve ever seen in an Arsenal. And absolutely nothing rattles or wiggles in my MAK90; something I can't say about every Arsenal I’ve owned. Most of my Arsenals were priced in the $800 range, while I vaguely recall paying $425 for the MAK90 with an already-converted stock. Arsenal makes good rifles, but there’s no question the MAK90 is by far the better value. |
|
I still find it funny that back in the day Chinese AK's were prevalent, but never considered "the best", yet now they are.....That being said, they still hold a place in my heart, being my 1st AK was Chinese. I have been a self accused Arsenal snob in the past, I really prefer their factory SLR rifles of the past over their newer SGLs, but they are very good factory rifles. Contrary to popular belief, there is a difference between a Saiga and an SGL, so the argument that an SGL is just a Saiga doesn't hold water IMO. The only problem I have ever encountered with Arsenal rifles is their finish. Harsh solvents will eat it. I only use CLP, so it was never an issue for me, but I have seen it. I have not experienced these other QC issues that others have seen with the Arsenal rifles. To me, they are worth the $. In the end, an AK is an AK, regardless. As long as the sites are straight, and it's put together right and goes boom when you squeeze the trigger, and hits what you aim at, you have a good one, be it WASR, Arsenal, or kit build. |
|
I really don't get the "Arsenals are overpriced" argument. Yep, the SGL is a converted Saiga. But if you just bought a standard Saiga and paid an AK builder to do the full conversion to make it identical to an SGL, you will basically spend the same amount of money.
For that reason, I think they are priced reasonably for what you get. There are cheaper options out there for those who disagree, so no big deal really. But whatever fits what you want out of an AK. |
|
Quoted:
I really don't get the "Arsenals are overpriced" argument. Yep, the SGL is a converted Saiga. But if you just bought a standard Saiga and paid an AK builder to do the full conversion to make it identical to an SGL, you will basically spend the same amount of money. For that reason, I think they are priced reasonably for what you get. There are cheaper options out there for those who disagree, so no big deal really. But whatever fits what you want out of an AK. I agree. While I don’t think Arsenals are the best value around, I also don’t think they’re overpriced. For me, whether or not something is “overpriced” is relative to the market in which that item exists, and my own opinions on what that market might look like in the future. As Poly pointed out recently, Arsenal essentially runs a monopoly and controls the supply of that which it sells. This ensures that there will never be a massive quantity of their products on the market. As such, far more often than not, Arsenals tend to increase in value over periods of time. Sure, this is never guaranteed. But the trend is what it is. And this is why whenever I’ve paid $800 for an Arsenal, I haven’t felt like I was “overpaying”. I’m pretty certain that if I hold onto the rifle long enough, and if I eventually decide to sell it, I will get an “inflation + restricted supply” return on it. Put more simply, to me “overpaying” means that you’re unlikely to recoup the price (+ inflation) if you ever part with that item in the future. By this metric, and historically at least, few Arsenal customers have “overpaid” for their rifles over the years. |
|
Since price wasn't a major concern. You might want to take a look at Arsenal's SLR 107FR or (107F) that Atlantic Firearms has for $949 (879) minus ARF discount. It's a factory made gun based on the AK100 series rifle. It has the poly folding stock (best of both worlds) and a tougher finish than the SGL. The FR has a scope rail and F doesn't. The SGL with the same features cost $1195, just because it's Russian. The Bulgarian made SLR is just as nice if not a little better. The brake helps tame recoil and has less muzzle rise for faster follow up shots.
If price was the main concern. A certified WASR with straight sights would do. Ugly factory rifle but will shot just fine. 1. Certified WASR $450-500 2. Arsenal SGL 21 $800-1200 3. Arsenal SLR 107 $879 for 107F, $949 for 107FR (best buy) IMHO Even for the same price I would take a SLR over a SGL 
|
|
Quoted:
Since price wasn't a major concern. You might want to take a look at Arsenal's SLR 107FR or (107F) that Atlantic Firearms has for $949 (879) minus ARF discount. It's a factory made gun based on the AK100 series rifle. It has the poly folding stock (best of both worlds) and a tougher finish than the SGL. The FR has a scope rail and F doesn't. The SGL with the same features cost $1195, just because it's Russian. The Bulgarian made SLR is just as nice if not a little better. The brake helps tame recoil and has less muzzle rise for faster follow up shots. If price was the main concern. A certified WASR with straight sights would do. Ugly factory rifle but will shot just fine. 1. Certified WASR $450-500 2. Arsenal SGL 21 $800-1200 3. Arsenal SLR 107 $879 for 107F, $949 for 107FR (best buy) IMHO Even for the same price I would take a SLR over a SGL Atlantic Firearms frequently lists items on its website, that haven't been regularly available in some time. I believe the SLR-107 is just such an item. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
There are some here saying Arsenal is the "best there is" to which I would argue a Norinco MAK90 is hands down nicer than an Arsenal any day of the week, so is my SAR-1. As the owner of several Arsenal rifles and a MAK90, I’d have to agree with that. Arsenal rifles are generally well-built and have good fit and finish, but the MAK90 is even better built, with better fit and finish. In particular, the action (both the trigger pull and bolt carrier movement) in the MAK90 is much smoother than anything I’ve ever seen in an Arsenal. And absolutely nothing rattles or wiggles in my MAK90; something I can't say about every Arsenal I’ve owned. Most of my Arsenals were priced in the $800 range, while I vaguely recall paying $425 for the MAK90 with an already-converted stock. Arsenal makes good rifles, but there’s no question the MAK90 is by far the better value. Yes, but a MAK90 seems to go for $800 today and those are +20 year old rifles. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There are some here saying Arsenal is the "best there is" to which I would argue a Norinco MAK90 is hands down nicer than an Arsenal any day of the week, so is my SAR-1. As the owner of several Arsenal rifles and a MAK90, I’d have to agree with that. Arsenal rifles are generally well-built and have good fit and finish, but the MAK90 is even better built, with better fit and finish. In particular, the action (both the trigger pull and bolt carrier movement) in the MAK90 is much smoother than anything I’ve ever seen in an Arsenal. And absolutely nothing rattles or wiggles in my MAK90; something I can't say about every Arsenal I’ve owned. Most of my Arsenals were priced in the $800 range, while I vaguely recall paying $425 for the MAK90 with an already-converted stock. Arsenal makes good rifles, but there’s no question the MAK90 is by far the better value. Yes, but a MAK90 seems to go for $800 today and those are +20 year old rifles. I have no doubt you can find $800 MAK90's on Gunbroker, but the going rate on most MAK90's today is between $500-$600. Occasionally, you can even see them selling for as low as $400. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I really don't get the "Arsenals are overpriced" argument. Yep, the SGL is a converted Saiga. But if you just bought a standard Saiga and paid an AK builder to do the full conversion to make it identical to an SGL, you will basically spend the same amount of money. For that reason, I think they are priced reasonably for what you get. There are cheaper options out there for those who disagree, so no big deal really. But whatever fits what you want out of an AK. I agree. While I don’t think Arsenals are the best value around, I also don’t think they’re overpriced. For me, whether or not something is “overpriced” is relative to the market in which that item exists, and my own opinions on what that market might look like in the future. As Poly pointed out recently, Arsenal essentially runs a monopoly and controls the supply of that which it sells. This ensures that there will never be a massive quantity of their products on the market. As such, far more often than not, Arsenals tend to increase in value over periods of time. Sure, this is never guaranteed. But the trend is what it is. And this is why whenever I’ve paid $800 for an Arsenal, I haven’t felt like I was “overpaying”. I’m pretty certain that if I hold onto the rifle long enough, and if I eventually decide to sell it, I will get an “inflation + restricted supply” return on it. Put more simply, to me “overpaying” means that you’re unlikely to recoup the price (+ inflation) if you ever part with that item in the future. By this metric, and historically at least, few Arsenal customers have “overpaid” for their rifles over the years. As I said, it all depends on what "value" means to the particular buyer. For you guys Arsenal is worth the extra money and I'm not knocking you for it. For me I think they are overrated and overpriced when you can find a deal on a Norinco or SAR (IMHO both much better than Arsenal) or even a WASR for less money and get mags and ammo as a package and be able to shoot it. Some people come here saying "I have $xxx to spend, what should I get" and from some people the answer is always "Arsenal is the best" without even asking what is important to the buyer. When it boils down to it what the "best" is for one person might not be for another. It is very subjective. A person might not place the same value on having a $800 rifle that will perform the same as a $450+/- rifle, especially if they're on a limited budget as more and more people are in these times. A rifle is just a club without mags and ammo to feed it. For somebody to blow their entire budget on just the rifle makes no sense to me. A higher priced AK doesn't necessarily mean you are getting a "better" AK with better components like on the AR side. For the record I think WASRs are getting overpriced as well but I think they are underrated as firearms and there is a lot of misinformation about them on the net and they get a bad rap because of this. They are often crudely finished and can be sloppy but they are proof that you can polish a turd though and IMO make for fun "fixer upper" projects. 
ETA: If higher price really means a better rifle then these must really be nice!! 
|
|
Interesting linky................I had not considered a Sig 556R, If they are reliable, it may be a contender as well, or may be an additional purchase for me. Before I say go on a Sig, I would have to get some sort of reliability reports back on them. I have tested/ reviewed a 556 in 5.56mm, but was not even aware of this model. I have decided for sure, that my next purchase will have the following firearms in it:
Savage 111 Long Range Hunter .338 Lapua (To go with my 110 BA) CZ VZ58 and probably the Arsenal SGL-21 since I do not really admire the Krebs too much (not worth the difference seems like) But I may very well ask him to get in a Sig, if my research turns out good info. After this purchase, and another purchase of Mosins (a dozen or so), I plan to save up for a little while to pay for one of my "dream rifles" which is Heym Professional SxS in .470 or .500. I know this is the wrong forum for this announcement, but it explains my purchase planning for the next year anyway. If it turns out that I like the Arsenal, I may get another one and have it coated in Coyote Brown, with matching furniture. I know this would break the hearts of the "traditionalists" but I think I would enjoy having one to match my gear. Thanks for all of the tips and opinions, I really appreciate them! -PC- |
|
Quoted:
The VZ-58 is the cream of the crop. It's a high speed system. Lighter than a stamped AK even though it's milled, and you can load the rifle via stripper clips. Recoil is less than an AK as well. It's definitely on my short list of rifles to get. On that same list is an SLR-95 and a Chinese Type 56. Both great AKs. Nothing wrong with the SGL-21 either. I have an SGL-31 and it runs flawless. The VZ-58 isn't an AK, though they are quite nice. I've owned a WASR and an SGL-21. I still own the SGL, they're extremely nice rifles. They're easily on par with a decent Ar as far as quality goes. |
AK Sponsor