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Posted: 5/26/2010 5:16:13 AM EDT
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Is the SGL-31 REALLY worth $800?
REALLY???? I would like to buy another 5.45 but after the whole drama regarding Lancaster, Century Tantel (and others), I am afraid to spend money on anything. However, I just have a hard time seeing ANY semi-auto, commercial AK being worth $800. Opinions please 
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Well, "worth" is a very relative term.
With all of the problems you read about with other available AKs, it seems that Arsenal is the "only game in town", if you want a quality product with reduced chances of having issues. Simple market based economics, enough people are willing to pay extra for what they perceive as "worth it". I have no doubts that they are a quality product. They start with a decent sporter rifle to begin with. Then they do quite a few modifications, using quality components, to return them to proper AK form. They have to import these rifles, buy or make parts, pay people to modify them, have a QC program, pay related business expenses and overhead, and then make a profit. Then the retailers have to make a profit too. I'm sure some of the price is a result of the internet created demand, but part of that is probably well deserved. There is no doubt cheaper AKs exist, and you could start with a basic Saiga and do the conversion yourself to save some money. But, to do the complete conversion ike Arsenal takes quite a bit of work and a few dollars in parts. Just the full furniture set alone isn't cheap. You just have to ask yourself, "Are they worth it to me?" |
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Quoted:
I spent $1,100 on parts to build an AK-105.... But its not a commercial AK, sooooooooo hell i dont know 
For $800, i would want a sidefolder  What I have found is when I have a question I can call Arsenal, have a real live person answer my questions. This means a lot to this Arsenal AK owner.  So far the only item I have had to deal with is a shifting Mag. release pin, that was fixed with a few taps with a punch to expand it's edge.
I called Arsenals Tech. support and they were willing to fix it, but I told them I could do it myself. The man then told me he would send me free of charge a few new Mag. release pins just so if I need them I would have them.
Point I am making is Arsenal was ready to do what was needed to help, they did not just give me a bunch of worthless talk, and hang up.
If this is not worth anything to some in this forum, it's their choice not to buy Arsenals products. 
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Lets add up some costs. Some of these are speculation, so feel free to correct me.
The polymer stock set alone is ~100 from K-var. So add that to a Saiga and you're up to $400. Then add the Arsenal FCG. I'll estimate its value at $40 based on G2 prices. There's $440. Add the Muzzle brake and you're up to $490 (I'm guessing it is roughly 50 dollars because the chrome-lined on from K-var is $96) Then comes the parts for the front-end conversion. 24mm threaded front sight base, the real rear sight and not the 300 meter thing the stock Saigas have. There's probably another 50 bucks or so. Up to $540 just in parts now. Now, Arsenal has to pay someone to do all this work––they can't conscript near slave labor like the Russian/Romanian Arsenals did. The front-end conversion takes some time. That's gonna bring up labor costs. So I'm purely guessing here, but based on the time it takes to do a complete Saiga conversion, I'll say it is about $80 in labor to put an SGL rifle together. We're up to $620 now. Arsenal also has to pay receptionists, secretaries, etc. They have to pay for the building they are in and the tools they're using. They have to pay taxes, unemployment insurance, etc. I have no idea what that equates out to for each individual SGL they manufacture, but it's only going up from $620. They aren't using old surplus kits that were government-funded back in the 60s-80s and stamping a new receiver like the Romanians are. So now we've got most of the costs accounted for. Now why to companies go into business? To make money! So on top of these costs, it's entirely reasonable for Arsenal to make some profit from the rifles they make and sell. Add it all up, and the Arsenal rifles are the best value in the AK industry. My SGL-31 can run with a Polytech Legend all day. |
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Imaposer2 nailed it.
“Worth” is a bit of an elusive concept, as it can mean different things to different people. For example, individual financial resources mean the “worth” equation for one person, might be very different than it is for another. For some people, saving up $800 to buy a firearm means skimping on other things for an entire year. For others, $800 might just be a good weekend on the town. Those two individuals are likely to have very different ideas of whether an Arsenal rifle is “worth” $800. Who’s to say either one is wrong? Another thing I see here often, is that people think of pricing solely in present-day terms. While $800 might seem excessive today, would it still seem excessive if this same NIB rifle sold for $1,500 five years from now? (Not entirely out of the question given possible legislation, and given that Arsenal rifles tend to hold their value pretty well.) Bottom line: No one can tell you if an Arsenal rifle is “worth” $800 to you. |
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Quoted:
Lets add up some costs. Some of these are speculation, so feel free to correct me. They have to pay taxes, unemployment insurance, etc. I have no idea what that equates out to for each individual SGL they manufacture, but it's only going up from $620. So now we've got most of the costs accounted for. Now why to companies go into business? To make money! So on top of these costs, it's entirely reasonable for Arsenal to make some profit from the rifles they make and sell. Add it all up, and the Arsenal rifles are the best value in the AK industry. My SGL-31 can run with a Polytech Legend all day. They don't pay the $300 cost for a Saiga to convert it. They're paying wholesale prices for the rifle with a lot of the work already done before it leaves Russia. Their profit margin is high because of lack of competition. If a person is interested in keeping the cost down they can do a Saiga conversion themselves (free labor and besides it is a fun thing to do). That option alone probably keeps them from charging $1000. Once people get mroe comfortable with the century ak 74, I can see some price pressure coming to Arsenal. Wil they charge more than Century? Yes. However, it will come down from $800 if Arsenal has a lot of stock they can move. If Arsenal's ability to get SGL 31's from Russia is limited, then they can afford to sit on them because the supply is low. If the price comes down to where it is equivalent to the cost of converting a Saiga, then they're definitely going to get a lot more business. I've priced out converting a Saiga and it stands at around $580 with all of the parts. Remember those are all retail costs and not what Arsenal would pay for the parts. |
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Quoted: buy a saiga and convert it not an option anymore as the 5.45 saigas are gone and there is none being imported in the forseeable future. from what i have read once the sgl's are gone there is no contract to import them in the future either. your options are as follows: 1 - $799 arsenal sgl 2 - $450 romananian wasr 2 3 - $369 century bulgarian 74 4 - $499 lancaster bulgarian 74 5 - $475 century tantal 6 - buy a kit and receiver and have it built in my opinion only 1,2, and 6 are the only options worth buying at this time. it seems the century bulgarian 74's are getting good range reports but i would wait until they get plenty of lead downrange before buying one to make sure the barrel steel and gas ports were done right. and that's if you are willing to accept the fact that they do not have chrome lined barrels. if this rifle is not going to be shot much or shot with non-corrosive ammo then the non-chromed bore may be right for you. not only are non-chromed bores harder to keep clean but they will corrode and erode faster. owning several non-chromed bolt actions that shoot corrosive ammo i can tell you that it takes many, many plunges with a patch to get them to the point that a patch comes out clean. with my 74's and my s&w m&p15r ,which all have chromed chambers and bores, i pour hot water down the barrel and gas block, a few swipes with a clp soaked bore snake, and a lube, no cleaning rod action needed. if you don't clean the non-chromed barrel extensively, accuracy will fall off quickly as the carbon deposits get worse. not to mention the fact that if you shoot corrosive ammo and don't clean the rifle right away corrosion will take place and you will get pitting. so, in basically the sgl is worth the money if you factor in fit and finish compared to the wasr and the fact that a kit build will cost about the same or more. |
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Quoted:
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buy a saiga and convert it not an option anymore as the 5.45 saigas are gone and there is none being imported in the forseeable future. from what i have read once the sgl's are gone there is no contract to import them in the future either. your options are as follows: 1 - $799 arsenal sgl 2 - $450 romananian wasr 2 3 - $369 century bulgarian 74 4 - $499 lancaster bulgarian 74 5 - $475 century tantal 6 - buy a kit and receiver and have it built in my opinion only 1,2, and 6 are the only options worth buying at this time. it seems the century bulgarian 74's are getting good range reports but i would wait until they get plenty of lead downrange before buying one to make sure the barrel steel and gas ports were done right. and that's if you are willing to accept the fact that they do not have chrome lined barrels. if this rifle is not going to be shot much or shot with non-corrosive ammo then the non-chromed bore may be right for you. not only are non-chromed bores harder to keep clean but they will corrode and erode faster. owning several non-chromed bolt actions that shoot corrosive ammo i can tell you that it takes many, many plunges with a patch to get them to the point that a patch comes out clean. with my 74's and my s&w m&p15r ,which all have chromed chambers and bores, i pour hot water down the barrel and gas block, a few swipes with a clp soaked bore snake, and a lube, no cleaning rod action needed. if you don't clean the non-chromed barrel extensively, accuracy will fall off quickly as the carbon deposits get worse. not to mention the fact that if you shoot corrosive ammo and don't clean the rifle right away corrosion will take place and you will get pitting. so, in basically the sgl is worth the money if you factor in fit and finish compared to the wasr and the fact that a kit build will cost about the same or more. They always say that about Saigas until the next boat load regardless of caliber. |
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Quoted:
Is the SGL-31 REALLY worth $800? REALLY???? I would like to buy another 5.45 but after the whole drama regarding Lancaster, Century Tantel (and others), I am afraid to spend money on anything. However, I just have a hard time seeing ANY semi-auto, commercial AK being worth $800. Opinions please Yes, it was worth it to me. I wanted a nice AK74 type rifle that I didn't have to mess with or send away for work to have what I wanted. The SGL31 fit that role perfect. It's also a great shooter, way better than I ever thought an AK was capable of. Mine appears to be a 1.5moa rifle. I understand the buy a Saiga and convert it crowd. Afterall, thats what an SGL31 is.. converted Saiga. I also have yet to see a converted Saiga on this board that I would actually want to own. Most people seem to do the conversion halfway and leave it at that. Or they leave the holes in the rear or the receiver, or fill them with rivets (ugly). To convert a Saiga to be identical to an SGL is going to take a good amount of work and money... or just a lot of money if you can't do it yourself. |
A big THANK YOU to all 
I got a lot to think about from this thread. In the end, I decided to go ahead and get one. I have never regretted buying quality. Also, a shout out to AIM for patiently answering my questions and helping me get into this rifle. Thanks to all. |
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Quoted:
Is the SGL-31 REALLY worth $800? REALLY???? I would like to buy another 5.45 but after the whole drama regarding Lancaster, Century Tantel (and others), I am afraid to spend money on anything. However, I just have a hard time seeing ANY semi-auto, commercial AK being worth $800. Opinions please yeah.... REALLY |
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