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Posted: 4/19/2010 1:27:58 AM EDT
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Its probably been done a million times already, if it has i apologise.
I am a Brit author currently working on a research project about the North Hollywood bank robbery in 1997, being a Brit my hands on firearms knowledge is somewhat limited, although i do have some experience when it comes to these weapons i am getting lost in the finite points. And thats hopefully where you guys and gals can help me (I've already had some superb help from the AR side of this site, "'m hoping the AK 'helpdesk' stacks up as good). Ok piccies time: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa52/lmindham/Various/LAPHSMuseumCase2.jpg and http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa52/lmindham/Various/20y60g.jpg So what i have so far, and this has been the product of a fair few late night internet hunts, is just this: Romy sidefolders (more on theses later) Chinese stamped receivers (identified by diagonal rivet pattern under the FSB), pretty much identified as the 'naughty' 3 hole variant...making it either a MAK90 or possibly a Type56S that wasnt inspected very closely upon import. Possible Eastern European/Egyptian/Israeli bolt carrier. So here comes the questions, ready? 1. I have heard the folding Romy stock will not fit on a thicker Chinese receiver, i have another photo showing the stocks on these weapons in the folded position, so if these are Chinese receivers how were the stocks jigged to work? 2. Also heard that Eastern European bolt carriers do not work within a Chinese rifle. The question is: what benefit would there have been to changing them, and what process is needed to make the parts operate correctly. 3. Identification of the forearm of the right hand rifle is needed, i have had several previous conflicting id's made and i am curious as to what the knowledge base here has to offer. Any other parts or era identifications that members can make would be gratefully received. Over to you guys 
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1) I believe the stocks could be made to fit or will fit,IIRC(milling the rear trunion or what ever is neccessary). the pistol grips are chicom
2)the only advantage would be parts availability, many more com bloc euro parts out there. 3)the forearm on the right is the legendary romy "donkey dong" for an under folder . two types one swept foward for fixed stocks and one swept back towards the mag, for under folders. the third hole in the reciever was drilled out more than likely and not imported,would be my guess |
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The Romanian stock can be modified to fit on the Chinese rifle by removing enough metal from the sides of part that fits in the receiver. that's not very difficult. It could be done with a grinder or even a hand file if one was sufficiently determined.
IIRC, only one of the screws will line up. |
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Quoted:
1) I believe the stocks could be made to fit or will fit,IIRC(milling the rear trunion or what ever is neccessary). the pistol grips are chicom 2)the only advantage would be parts availability, many more com bloc euro parts out there. 3)the forearm on the right is the legendary romy "donkey dong" for an under folder . two types one swept foward for fixed stocks and one swept back towards the mag, for under folders. the third hole in the reciever was drilled out more than likely and not imported,would be my guess Actually, I believe that one isn't Romanian. I think that's the US-made version popular quite some time ago that Global Trades used to sell which featured the knurled grip. It's difficult to see the bolt carriers but they're not Israeli unless they were captured from a ComBloc rifle and remarked or a very amazing Galil bolt/bolt carrier modification. And if memory serves, the rifles were semi-automatics that were converted/modified to fully automatic. You can still see the selector stop on the trigger guard. For what it's worth, although the pistol grips on both rifles are Chinese, it looks like the handguards aren't. The upper and lower handguards on the left rifle (as you look at the photo) appear to be Eastern European or possibly Russian. The lower handguard on the right rifle looks to be the US-made vertical grip model and the upper might be Eastern European or Russian. If you're really intent on knowing more information such as the make and model of those particular weapons, try contacting the Public Relations Unit at the LAPD. They're usually very willing to help and you're certainly not the first person to ask for information regarding the weapons: http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/2031 They also state that they can help provide information for academic research projects here - scroll down to the bottom of the page where it states the process on how to request information: http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/9136#research |
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Firstly thanks for the information, very insightful, do you mind if i pick your knowledge some more?
Actually, I believe that one isn't Romanian. I think that's the US-made version popular quite some time ago that Global Trades used to sell which featured the knurled grip. Global Trades? I have not heard of this name before (not surprising really), is it a manufacturer? retailer? Anywhere you know of that i might find comparison photos? The closest grip i have had it identified as was from a Romy PM md65, although that version looks too short and stubby to match the crime scene weapon. Any direction you could point me regarding Global Trades would be a huge bonus, a quick google search didnt get me too far. For what it's worth, although the pistol grips on both rifles are Chinese, it looks like the handguards aren't. The upper and lower handguards on the left rifle (as you look at the photo) appear to be Eastern European or possibly Russian. The lower handguard on the right rifle looks to be the US-made vertical grip model and the upper might be Eastern European or Russian. This is excellent info, just what i was looking for, thank you. If you're really intent on knowing more information such as the make and model of those particular weapons, try contacting the Public Relations Unit at the LAPD. They're usually very willing to help and you're certainly not the first person to ask for information regarding the weapons: http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/2031 They also state that they can help provide information for academic research projects here - scroll down to the bottom of the page where it states the process on how to request information: http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/9136#research[/quote] Many thanks for taking the time to find those links for me, honestly appreciated. I have been through the public relations office of the LAPD, they sent me to a guy called David Lee at the Discovery Unit, unfortunately he will not release any info under the CPRA, and has now taken to ignoring my emails. The only solid link i have is a press release by the LAPD in March 97 that states 'three Norinco Type 56S-1's'. To me this sounds and looks wrong as the receivers do not match that of the Norinco underfolder...i will however stand to be enlightened. I changed tack and went through the Michael Hoffman at the ATF, all i was told from there is that the ATF conducted their trace on the rifles and handed ALL paperwork to the LAPD, they apparently hold no files on this case (hard to believe), but without the serials i cannot file a FOIA request with the ATF to see what they know. A bit of a Catch-22 situation im facing, hence why identification has had to be done visually. I am constantly impressed with the information on this site, and with people's willingness to help out. By all means keep the info coming, anything you may spot in these pictures please shout it out, especially the bolt carriers...that subject is bending my head. |
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I found another pic of this LAPD museum.
just remembered some other things about this museum...... http://hauntedlemons.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DSCF00008.jpg yeah the grip looks to be after market, but like I said, its a grip for an underfolder......... these rifles are odd, chicom recievers and romy side folders,with an underfolder romy VFG???? but I have got some questions about what the LAPD is doing here........because so far it comes off as a shrine for crimminals and does not cast a good light on them. they were the ones that brainlessly were displaying RFK's bloody clothes...... I mean come on,have some respect !! I noticed on youtube, nutcases were looking at these to lunatics as heroes. so whats this display tell us?? yeah, the LAPD had no clue how to deal with serious issues. good job imortilizing these hack artist-mass murdering lunatics. As far as I am concerned this shit,(all of it) should have been smashed to shit and torched with willie pete and burried for good!! |
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Again, that's not a Romanian vertical front grip (VFG). Upon looking at the clearer photo, it does appear to be the US-made wooden lower handguard with the knurled vertical grip. Those grips were for sale many years ago by Global Trades and a few other vendors. Global Trades was a vendor of AK parts and was located in Texas, if memory serves me. They sold a lot of Romanian, Bulgarian, and Hungarian parts. Unfortunately, they're gone now. I'll try to dig up a photo or two showing the grip - every once in a while one will pop up on Gunbroker. Back in those days, the Romanian inward-facing wooden vertical grip wasn't available.
As far as the rifles being odd, you have to understand the time frame. Back then, there weren't a whole lot of parts or vendors out there. Stuff was just beginning to really get distributed. A lot of the more recent AK enthusiasts that have gotten into the hobby are actually quite spoiled with the varied choices of rifles, builders, and parts. In the "old days," there were little choices and options. Many of us did the best we could with what we had. So, there were a lot of Chinese "Russian" or Chinese "Romanian" rifles dressed up back then. Those particular rifles have the mismatched, odd furniture due either to the owners putting not having much availability to them where they were and just used what they could obtain, or a previous owner had them like that for similar reasons before the bad guys took possession of them. But more than likely, the rifles were just stripped down receiver/barrel assemblies at one point for various reasons and someone tagged them with the most available furniture to suit his needs (side folding buttstock, etc.). Regarding your frustration with the LAPD, they are what they are. They certainly have a tough job and credit must be given to the average officer just trying to do his job. But in addition to a lot of credit, as a general whole, the LAPD deserves a great deal of the mockery it receives. Utter mismanagement, foolish outspokeness, inept leadership, and kneejerk reactions based on ignorance and "mood of the politicians." Unfortunately, that doesn't help you with your research but there's not much else you can do without either actually seeing them in-person or having a copy of the evidence log. |
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Quoted:
Again, that's not a Romanian vertical front grip (VFG). Upon looking at the clearer photo, it does appear to be the US-made wooden lower handguard with the knurled vertical grip. Those grips were for sale many years ago by Global Trades and a few other vendors. Global Trades was a vendor of AK parts and was located in Texas, if memory serves me. They sold a lot of Romanian, Bulgarian, and Hungarian parts. Unfortunately, they're gone now. I'll try to dig up a photo or two showing the grip - every once in a while one will pop up on Gunbroker. Back in those days, the Romanian inward-facing wooden vertical grip wasn't available. As far as the rifles being odd, you have to understand the time frame. Back then, there weren't a whole lot of parts or vendors out there. Stuff was just beginning to really get distributed. A lot of the more recent AK enthusiasts that have gotten into the hobby are actually quite spoiled with the varied choices of rifles, builders, and parts. In the "old days," there were little choices and options. Many of us did the best we could with what we had. So, there were a lot of Chinese "Russian" or Chinese "Romanian" rifles dressed up back then. Those particular rifles have the mismatched, odd furniture due either to the owners putting not having much availability to them where they were and just used what they could obtain, or a previous owner had them like that for similar reasons before the bad guys took possession of them. But more than likely, the rifles were just stripped down receiver/barrel assemblies at one point for various reasons and someone tagged them with the most available furniture to suit his needs (side folding buttstock, etc.). Regarding your frustration with the LAPD, they are what they are. They certainly have a tough job and credit must be given to the average officer just trying to do his job. But in addition to a lot of credit, as a general whole, the LAPD deserves a great deal of the mockery it receives. Utter mismanagement, foolish outspokeness, inept leadership, and kneejerk reactions based on ignorance and "mood of the politicians." Unfortunately, that doesn't help you with your research but there's not much else you can do without either actually seeing them in-person or having a copy of the evidence log. yeah,yeah. we got that......... thats why I showed the picture of the grip. looks to be oak too. also, yeah I was around back then and even before those days  I think we know why they went with the romy side folders. for the parameters of the heist and because it was easy to install.
I dont have any problem with the average joe at the LAPD and certainly believe that they have an almost, impossible task ahead of them what I have a problem with is the moron that decided to put RFK's blood drenched clothes on display and some of the other decisions they made in their displays. I am sure the two guys would approve of their display, they did a nice job for them !! |
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Command & Rayman,
Thanks for getting involved, and for sharing your knowledge. You both raise some very interesting points. The pic you posted is probably a better example, and one i should have posted straight away, there are a few of them taken from an exhibition at the Palms casino in Vegas last month. I did also read about the controversy with RFK's clothing..a bit of a dumb move on the LAPHS's part i agree. Their whole ethic for displaying dioramas like this is an unusual one, and i can appreciate the argument for both sides, however right at this moment im not going to look a gift horse in the mouth as it allows me a view of the tools used in this robbery. Rayman, you info on how the rifles may have ended up looking as they do is great, a brilliant insight! Certain technical issues about that still need to be answered in my eyes though, thats the meat of my research on these weapons. But it is extremely handy to take on board the info you have given. I've had another look for Global Trades, i came up with an interesting read Here, and whilst it doesnt help with the forearm issue it does give me some added insight into that company. If you do fall across a picture of one of their VFG's i would be eternally grateful. To address both of your comments on the LAPD, i agree that they face a daily struggle that im sure nobody is envious of. I also agree that they have some serious faults, both at street and managerial level. My work on this subject is often taking me into close contact with their 'office-wallahs', and to be honest whilst i find them pleasant and seemingly willing to help when it comes to asking for them to be transparent on 13 year old information, they slam the door in my face. I have pondered why this behaviour happens, after all, all i want is six little numbers and ill leave them be. The struggle continues to find those numbers. Command - i most certainly agree with the last two lines of your last post. |
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I believe Global Trades used this for their address information before becoming Armory USA:
Global Trades Company, Incorporated 7311 Galveston Rd # 260 Houston, 77034-1482 Texas USA work 1 713 944 3351 http://www.globaltrades.com If I had some of my storage stuff, I'd send you an old catalog/mail flyer which contains all their cool sales items from back in the day. Here's some more information from one of our member's sites: Global Trades Company (GTC) is one of America's Largest importer of AK and associated firearm parts. Their staff is considered one of the most knowledgeable on the manufacturing and repair of Kalashnikov rifles in the US. They can answer all your questions regarding legal AK conversions, parts swapping and modifications.
In 1998 Armory USA I, LLC.(AUSA) was formed. This company has become the largest manufacturer of AK-47 and AK-74 American-made rifles in the US. Since their start AUSA has sold thousands to civilian, police and government agencies. Our head designer, Ivan Kolev, designed them here in Houston as well as the tooling used to produce the rifles. Ivan was the Head Design Engineer for Armory Co. in Kazanlak, Bulgaria from 1989 till 1999. These new rifles are built to the exacting standards of military Kalashnikov's. Then, at the end of 2007, they seem to have changed ownership again (copied from the post of member "allegesnnogwat"): Armory USA is now under new ownership.
Negotiations were made between the owners of Armory USA and Hector Bennett, owner of Elk River Tool & Die, to purchase all of Armory USA's tooling, equipment and stock on hand. For those of you who do not know, Mr. Bennett is nationally known for his high quality AK builds. HOWEVER - although Armory USA is now known as Elk River Tool & Die, the company will NOT be moving from Houston Texas. Furthermore, Elk River has kept all of Armory's highly skilled and trained gunsmiths and personnel. Under the Elk River name, we will continue to provide parts and receivers, and some of the best built and finished AK rifles available on the American market. We are also accepting orders for customer custom builds. The name has changed, but our customers should expect no disruption in shipments of parts, receivers or rifles. TR Graham Gunsmith Elk River Tool & Die |
| that pistol/forgrip is from "federal arms corp ( if anyone remembers them) the same company that made that grip did the underfolder conversion block for stamp recievers i think "novely guns bought most of there stock her is the limk http://www.gungarage.com/ak_accessories.htm |
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Randee & Rayman (you guys aint a crime fighting superhero team are ya )
You fellas spoil me, nah really you do. I have been looking at the rifles for months trying to identify different components and how they managed to splice them all together, along come you guys and not only tell me stuff i never knew but also identify the parts that have had me banging my head off the wall, all in a blink of an eye. There's a lesson here im sure. when in doubt don't struggle..ask those that know. To others that have posted on this thread, if i haven't answered you directly don't be offended, i have read what you have posted and taken it on board, your insights are also greatly appreciated. Good work chaps 
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