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Posted: 2/7/2010 2:41:14 PM EDT
| Maybe it's a dumb question, but I always hear people say, "You can carry more 5.56x45 then you can 7.62x39." If i have a rifle in 7.62x39, what stops me from carrying the same amount of bullets a 5.56x45 soldier has? Yes, it's heavier but I don't see why I couldin't carry the same amount. What is the standard ammo load for a soldier using a 5.56x45 rifle versus a soldier using a 7.62x39 rifle? |
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Quoted:
I think it's more an issue of being able to carry the same number of rounds PLUS additional stuff like Med Gear, Food, Water, Shelter, etc. Lighter is generally better when it comes to gear. Mike Big +1 If you've ever humped your gear 15-20 miles carrying a rifle you know why lighter is better 
Z |
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uh no. get a scale. wolf 60 grain 5.45 = 169 grains wolf 55 grn 223 =173.7 grains wolf 122 grn hp 7.62x39 = 251.8 winchester q3130 7.62x51 nato 147 grn FMJ = 374 grains ie: 10 lbs of ammo = 187 rounds of 7.62 nato = 277 rounds of 7.62x39 = 403 rounds of .223 = 414 rounds of 5.45 at best its 2.2 rounds of 5.45 to 1 rounds of 7.62 NATO and 1.48 rounds of 5.45 to 7.62x39. actual weight savings on 210 rounds (7 30round mags): 5.45 = 5.07 lbs 7.62x39 = 7.55 lbs ammo load weighs 2/3s but its only a savings of 2.5 lbs. Quoted: 7.62 gets REAL heavy when you are carrying a lot of it. you could carry 3x the ammo in 5.45 and still weigh the same. |
But for hitting some sucker in his head, I pick the AK Mag.
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Man, I rarely post here, but I feel like jumping in...
I mean no flame, just want to provoke some thought.... What is a "standard loadout"? I mean standard loadout for what? Is loadout weight critical for your intended role? Are you planning to go on a long hump into unsupported territory or operating in a stationary role? If you're talking about fending off waves of zombies, looters, democrats, from fort living room, then your in a stronghold domination type setting. Weight doesn't mean much of anything. However, penetrating barriers such as vehicles, sheetrock, etc, is paramount, so heavier rounds have their advantages. If you are planning mobile operations, that are quick hit & run type things, then you're likely working out of a vehicle, so weight is mitigated. It's true that small bullets are lighter than big bullets, but that is oversimplifying, IMHO. Even the military is largely mechanized and long road marches are mostly used for training (cuz that shit hurts). For a civilian, in pretty much any realistic role (including shtf stuff), I don't see loadout weight being significant enough to prohibit any particular caliber. I would recommend rather than you choose caliber based in it's handling/terminal attributes: light bullets such as 5.56 and 5.45 recoil less making for faster follow up shots. The trade off is that they penetrate intermediate barriers less impressively than 7.62 rounds (not that this is a secret). One role I could see a civilian being concerned with loadout weight is in the "get home loadout". Your rifle, your lo-pro rig/bag kept in your truck and the roadway infrastructure or your vehicle is no longer available. This is an E&E situation where NOT getting in a fight is the main objective. 2 or 3 mags and a few smoke canisters would be better than running around with 8 or 10 mags (of any caliber). But in this case lighter, means faster. Just sharing.... |
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Quoted:
Man, I rarely post here, but I feel like jumping in... I mean no flame, just want to provoke some thought.... What is a "standard loadout"? I mean standard loadout for what? Is loadout weight critical for your intended role? Are you planning to go on a long hump into unsupported territory or operating in a stationary role? If you're talking about fending off waves of zombies, looters, democrats, from fort living room, then your in a stronghold domination type setting. Weight doesn't mean much of anything. However, penetrating barriers such as vehicles, sheetrock, etc, is paramount, so heavier rounds have their advantages. If you are planning mobile operations, that are quick hit & run type things, then you're likely working out of a vehicle, so weight is mitigated. It's true that small bullets are lighter than big bullets, but that is oversimplifying, IMHO. Even the military is largely mechanized and long road marches are mostly used for training (cuz that shit hurts). For a civilian, in pretty much any realistic role (including shtf stuff), I don't see loadout weight being significant enough to prohibit any particular caliber. I would recommend rather than you choose caliber based in it's handling/terminal attributes: light bullets such as 5.56 and 5.45 recoil less making for faster follow up shots. The trade off is that they penetrate intermediate barriers less impressively than 7.62 rounds (not that this is a secret). One role I could see a civilian being concerned with loadout weight is in the "get home loadout". Your rifle, your lo-pro rig/bag kept in your truck and the roadway infrastructure or your vehicle is no longer available. This is an E&E situation where NOT getting in a fight is the main objective. 2 or 3 mags and a few smoke canisters would be better than running around with 8 or 10 mags (of any caliber). But in this case lighter, means faster. Just sharing.... Good points. I really don't see myself "going on extended patrol" in a SHTF scenario. I'll either be holed up, or doing sort "recon" missions to see what's going on in my immediate area, and to make sure the perimeter is solid. 5 mags maximum, of any caliber seems to suit the role outside the wire for me. |
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Quoted:
uh no. get a scale. wolf 60 grain 5.45 = 169 grains wolf 55 grn 223 =173.7 grains wolf 122 grn hp 7.62x39 = 251.8 winchester q3130 7.62x51 nato 147 grn FMJ = 374 grains ie: 10 lbs of ammo = 187 rounds of 7.62 nato = 277 rounds of 7.62x39 = 403 rounds of .223 = 414 rounds of 5.45 at best its 2.2 rounds of 5.45 to 1 rounds of 7.62 NATO and 1.48 rounds of 5.45 to 7.62x39. actual weight savings on 210 rounds (7 30round mags): 5.45 = 5.07 lbs 7.62x39 = 7.55 lbs ammo load weighs 2/3s but its only a savings of 2.5 lbs. Quoted:
7.62 gets REAL heavy when you are carrying a lot of it. you could carry 3x the ammo in 5.45 and still weigh the same. That's interseting, only 2.5 lbs difference. I guess the weight issue is not as significant as some people think. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
uh no. get a scale. wolf 60 grain 5.45 = 169 grains wolf 55 grn 223 =173.7 grains wolf 122 grn hp 7.62x39 = 251.8 winchester q3130 7.62x51 nato 147 grn FMJ = 374 grains ie: 10 lbs of ammo = 187 rounds of 7.62 nato = 277 rounds of 7.62x39 = 403 rounds of .223 = 414 rounds of 5.45 at best its 2.2 rounds of 5.45 to 1 rounds of 7.62 NATO and 1.48 rounds of 5.45 to 7.62x39. actual weight savings on 210 rounds (7 30round mags): 5.45 = 5.07 lbs 7.62x39 = 7.55 lbs ammo load weighs 2/3s but its only a savings of 2.5 lbs. Quoted:
7.62 gets REAL heavy when you are carrying a lot of it. you could carry 3x the ammo in 5.45 and still weigh the same. That's interseting, only 2.5 lbs difference. I guess the weight issue is not as significant as some people think. Did you factor in the weight of the magazines? Probably not much difference, but every little bit counts. |
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Did you factor in the weight of the magazines? Probably not much difference, but every little bit counts. No it doesn't. Unless you planning a lot of mileage on foot. The application justifies the equipment. But I've got a pretty low post count. I may not know what I'm talking about. |
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Quoted:
FWIW, I just weighed 10 fully loaded mags on an electronic scale. All 30 rounders Polymer mags 5.45x39 - 11lbs 2oz Standard AR mags (not pmags) .223 - 9 lbs 13oz Standard AK steel surplus mags 7.62x39 - 17lbs 10oz Now THERE you go, that's the real way to do it; thanks. As I was reading this thread, I kept thinking to myself...Yeah, but the Commies make REAL magazines, not those little toy semi-curved used beer cans that the AR uses. And REAL magazines are just plain heavier, much heavier. One thing that the AR guys fail to think about is magazine failure in the field (aluminum magazines). When you're operating in the field, you slip and fall, run into things and from time to time, have to hit the dirt. When you do this, often you'll land on your magazines, and aluminum AR magazines deform when they take a good shot; AK magazines don't. So if you're carrying an AR into hostile areas, you have to consider that at some point, you're going to trash a magazine or two, so it's a good thing they weight so much less, because you're going to need more. If you're carrying Pmag's, then my bet is, they can take it and hold up there with the big boys...but even a Pmag isn't in the same ball park as a Bulgarian Waffle synthetic...now THAT's a magazine. Oh, and here's a magazine tip for AK users...your magazines aren't invincible; in fact, they actually have an achilles heel. The 30 round AK magazines stick way out there, so when you hit the dirt, the magazine smacks the ground a lot. When that happens, hit hard enough and you can pop the floor plate off of your AK magazine and turn it into a mono-pod. So, before you go into the real thing, tape up the bottom of your magazines liberally with black electrical tape. A good amount will not only keep that floorplate from popping off, but it will also serve as a bumper pad to ease the shock of the impact. Magazine lesson over... |
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How many mags do you really think you need if you're in a SHTF situation??? Being by yourself or with a small group people the outcome of a firefight would questionable against 2 or more armed individuals. You're going to break contact in any situation like that and move out ASAP. Even in firefights over here if you shoot more than 2 or 3 mags you were probably just wasting ammo shooting at nothing. In SHTF you'll want to conserve ammo and only shoot at what you can hit...not lay down 500rnds of ineffective suppressive fire. If you can't move fast enough and you get pinned down you'll run out of ammo no matter how many mags you're carrying. Think light. One mag in the rifle and another 4-5 would suffice...with some loose ammo or spare mags stashed somewhere else. Why do you think the Taliban is so hard to persuit? They are moving around with nothing more than a man dress, and AK, and a few mags. In any situation where you're alone or in a small group mobility would be the key to survival...getting out of harms way before it ever even happens if possible. That's how you would stay alive.
CMS |
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Quoted:
What is the standard ammo load for a soldier using a 5.56x45 rifle versus a soldier using a 7.62x39 rifle? The Soviets originally issued 6 magazine and a 5 cell pouch with each rifle. That's a basic load of 180 cartridges. That seems to have been reduced since later pouches hold 3 or 4 magazines. The standard basic load for a US soldier used to be 7 30 shot magazines, or 210 cartridges. That seems to have increased. I presume that Soviet soldiers sometimes carried more than just the basic load. I know US soldiers did so on many occaisons. The mission, terrain and other factors dictate how much ammunition a soldier carries. |
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But lets not make the mistake that everyone's situations would be the same. There are many variables such as AO, what the task at hand is, etc. These variables should dictate loadout. Including the weight, ammo capacity, etc. Variables of the given task should cause one to adjust their loudout, not just...."it's lighter".
If one were super concerned with weight there are lots of places to make weight cutting. Using lighter equipment, such as 500D vests, lighter plates, less crap on the 2nd line in general and still carry the best ammo for the task. I could really ramble on about this, but I've seen these threads deteriorate and would rather not see that happen. I'm just talking here, not trying to be a know it all. |
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Quoted:
uh no. get a scale. wolf 60 grain 5.45 = 169 grains wolf 55 grn 223 =173.7 grains wolf 122 grn hp 7.62x39 = 251.8 winchester q3130 7.62x51 nato 147 grn FMJ = 374 grains ie: 10 lbs of ammo = 187 rounds of 7.62 nato = 277 rounds of 7.62x39 = 403 rounds of .223 = 414 rounds of 5.45 at best its 2.2 rounds of 5.45 to 1 rounds of 7.62 NATO and 1.48 rounds of 5.45 to 7.62x39. actual weight savings on 210 rounds (7 30round mags): 5.45 = 5.07 lbs 7.62x39 = 7.55 lbs ammo load weighs 2/3s but its only a savings of 2.5 lbs. Quoted:
7.62 gets REAL heavy when you are carrying a lot of it. you could carry 3x the ammo in 5.45 and still weigh the same. / thread |
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