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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - partial full auto? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/24/2008 2:43:50 PM EDT
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Thought I would rename this one because my other post only had 10 people look at it and no replies. I have a Romanian AK. Went to the range today and a couple of times when I tried to fire 2 shots rattled off extremely fast. Usually I have to try to bump fire a gun but this seemed to do it when I was only trying to squeeze off 1 round. Is there something wrong with my trigger mechanism that needs to be addressed or is this normal. It's pretty cool but I don't want any problems with the law. Any help on if this is somewhat normal or has had a similar experience is appreciated. |
| It sure sounds like a slam fire. First off make sure your firing pin is free to move in the bolt and not stuck or carboned up. Many military rifles including the AK's use a floating firing pin, and it needs to be able to move freely. If in doubt, give it a good cleaning. Slam fires can also occur due to the ammo, if the primers are really soft, you can have an issue with the rifle doubling or worse, I once saw an SKS do a full auto impression with some bad ammo. It shouldnt be hard to track down the source of your problem, your next range trip will confirm your findings. |
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Reasonably often when I go to the range and I'm trying for accuracy off the bench, the very first shot will double on me. I attribute it to a loose hold and inadvertently "bump-firing" it. This has happened with both my Vectors, the UF and the fixed stock. Once it happens, I tighten up on my hold and have no more doubles. Of course, YMMV. |
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1) Make sure you're getting good follow through on the trigger - lots of folks tend to yank their trigger finger forward as soon as the shot is fired, and this can result in an inadvertant bump fire. Consciously keep the trigger held down for half a second or longer, then reset, until you're used to it. 2) Ensure that the firing pin can move freely in the bolt. 3) Check for a "sweet spot" in the trigger mechanism. A "sweet spot" is a point in trigger travel where, when the bolt cycles, the hammer will be stopped by neither the trigger or connector, resulting in a follow. It can occur with a bad match of receiver and trigger group (some NDS receivers and Tapco triggers, for instance). To check for it, remove the dust cover and cycle the action while holding the trigger down at various positions and see if the hammer ever follows the bolt down. Since you've only experienced doubles and no "dead follows" (hammer follows down but round doesn't fire, the more common result of hammer following) I'd imagine it's one of the first two issues. |
How do I know? It says SAR-1 on the side and has the bayo lug ground off and no threaded barrel but the reciever is milled out for hi cap mags like the WASR. I posted pics before and some said it may be an early WASR before they started calling them that? The wood is nicer than the WASR's I see nowdays. |
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Your SAR-1 receiver started life accepting standard capacity magazines - you did well. My bet is on a stuck firing pin or a weak disconnector spring. I put a Tapco G2 in my SAR-1 and it is the best AK trigger I've ever shot. If you have some mineral spirits, take you bolt out and let it soak overnight - or just pop the retaining pin and remove the firing pin all together. When properly installed and with nothing gumming up the inside of the bolt, you firing pin should rattle when you shake the bolt. |
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2002 - Same year as mine. You're gonna love that rifle. Here's a link on bolt disassembly: www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/boltdis.htm |
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The SAR-1's have always accepted 30 round mags. They were made that way from the start. They were never milled out like WASR's. From Linx310's website: "What is a SAR-1? A SAR-1 is a P.D.B (Produced During assualt weapons Ban) Romanian semi-automatic AKM (aka AK-47) clone. This rifle has a pistol grip and can accept AK-47 Hi-capacity magazines, which are very cheap and plentiful. The end of the barrel has no threads. It uses the standard AK-47 7.62*39 cartridge. The fit and finish of this rifle is average, mainly because of the mismatched wood and some odd metal finishing marks. Most Sar-1s have some form of trigger slap, which can be easily fixed by following the Trigger Slap fix tutorial. Another problem that may be encountered is canted sights. There are 5 US parts and 10 imported parts. Note: The 2001 through early 2004 models are of higher quality then the 2000 and 1999 models. The advantages of this rifle are its reliability, cost, very large selection of replacement parts, cheap ammo, and the very cool noise of the original AK-47 round the 7.62*39. If you want a clone true to the original this is it. Overall this is a great starter AK. They are now NO LONGER imported, replaced by a sister gun the WASR series." |
I see what you mean. This is really odd. It has the same markings as my 2002 SAR-1 but it surely looks like a WASR-10 receiver. Either way this should have nothing to do with your double firing issue. You may have a unique piece there 
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Yes, first AK. It has been absolutely great to shoot. I picked it up at a local shop for $370 last june. It shoots any ammo every time I pull the trigger and then some. The only guns I have that do that that reliably is my AK and my glocks. No matter how many rounds have been put through them before a cleaning. |
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let us know if you get this figured out. my 'pinion: -check your disconnector (a) and make sure there is a spring (b) installed under it: remove the dust cover and push down on the disconnector. if it "springs" back, there's a spring installed. if it doesn't, buya spring and install it using the gunsnet link above. If you have to install the spring, it may be a good idea to buy a G2 fire control group and install that since you'll have everything apart. G2's greatly improve the feel of the AK. -check your firing pin and make sure it has 'slop' as described above. -make sure the stock is in your shoulder and tighten your grip 
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be advised if the disconnector does not engage and it is a hammer follow through, your AK could fire out of battery and ruin your day at the range...at least check to make sure it's NOT that. |
Does this mean it will empty my mag? I don't want that. Also if something all of a sudden goes faulty like that can you get in some legal trouble for it? |
I am going to get it fixed, I heard the tapco trigger groups are nice. After I make sure it's not the disconnector I will probably put the tapco in anyway. |
put mildly, yes  and don't worry about the legal trouble, the real danger is hurting yourself or someone else. if you're not expecting the second shot it could go over the berm or wherever your rifle is pointing...If you get the Tapco G2, your rifle can accept a "single hook" quite easily. Oh, and by the way, welcome to the darkside  you've got a nice SAR there.
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that's correct. If you flip your rifle upside down, and look in your trigger guard, you'll see one 'nub' cut out at the front. This allows one hook to go through the receiver when you pull the trigger. you could take a dremel and cut out another nub on the left side, so you can get a double hook in there. there are various reasons to get a double hook, but it really isn't necessary... be sure to check out the build it yourself forum, there usually are a lot of threads on maintaining fixing your AK. <WARNING: CLICKING ON THIS LINK WILL MAKE YOU WANT TO THREAD YOUR BARREL, PUT A BAYO LUG BACK ON, OR GOD FORBID  , BUILD AN AK FROM SCRATCH>www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=4&f=51 |
That's a sear failure. The sear has failed to hold back the hammer and the hammer simply followed the carrier forward causing a light primer strike or no primer strike. Incidentally its the same reason why the redneck legends of "ya just pull out the little spring under the disconnector" or "ya just file down the disconnector" to turn a semi-auto into a full-auto never work. All that crap does is turn a functioning semi-auto into a non-functioning gun, because the hammer is just following the bolt without being under any sort of timing control. |
So its sear failure in a perfectly well made full auto thats failed to catch the hammer when you see videos of a person redrawing the carrier and bolt to recock and load another round? (not a ftf or fte but a closed bolt hammer down)Im not talking about bubba guns. Could it be from operator not holding the trigger firmly? Is this not uncommon with fa weapons? You often see interrupted fire and operators of machineguns recocking closed bolts. |
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Sear failures are not uncommon at all with NFA AKs. Do you have a SOT? If you do I can help you build one or buy one, if you don't have the license you can look at one of mine and shoot it sometime if you're around KCMO. Most east european sears are stamped metal, the Bugarians are the best because they are thickest, and over the life of the gun the bolt carrier just thrashes them. What happens is, instead of pushing the sear down the bolt carrier just slides to the left of the sear and bypasses it, pushing it down maybe a little but not enough to do its job and catch the hammer. Then the hammer won't fall at all until you recock the action, even with a live round in the chamber. After awhile you just shitcan the whole FCG and replace it with a new one. Its no big deal. Full auto guns in general are very hard on their fire control parts. At one point I had an idea to make very high quality fire control parts for Mac-10/M11 NFA guns because they are constantly breaking their FCG's and doing what is called a runaway, where the operator releases his trigger finger but the gun continues to fire until the entire magazine is dumped. Mac guys are constantly bitching about broken fire control groups. If someone wanted to dedicate a CNC machine to making better Mac FCGs I bet they would sell every one they made, but it still wouldn't be enough to pay for the cost of the tooling. Which is why I didn't do it. --Mike |
| Someone asked me to follow up on this, so I am. I went to the range again and while shooting I made an extra effort to hold the rifle tight to my shoulder and I had no problems shooting one round at a time. I guess I was just holding it too lose and accidentally bump firing. Thanks for everyone's suggestions. |
Well THAT was a cheap fix! 
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That's a weird looking SAR-1 you have there. It definitely has SAR-1 furniture but it doesn't have mag dimples. It's also got the Y-stamp for the auto sear. Since you said it looks like the magwell has been opened up, I'm going to venture a guess as to what your receiver is: Romak 991, leftover, stamped SAR-1 and finished. |
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Well, I went to the range again and had a couple of double fires again. I took it back to the shop where I got it (they work on full auto weapons too so they are familiar with this) and they looked at it today. The guy said that the trigger group was worn causing the hook to sometimes not catch and causing a double fire. If I take the cover off, pull the trigger down and pull the bolt back like what happens when it fires the trigger will catch the hammer while the trigger is held down. If I slowly release the trigger it sometimes misses the transfer to the hook and will cause it to fire again. So long story short- I am getting a tapco trigger group to replace it. Because I bought it there he will install it for free. Where is the best place to get one, trying to find the best price including shipping. Also, just curious, can I get into trouble with my gun the way it is? I won't be taking it to the range because I don't want any issues |
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You aren't in violation of anything. There is no intent to create a full auto firearm, you have not modified the gun to make it shoot full auto and it still doesn't REALLY shoot full auto. It shoots like a gun with a broken fire control group and you are preparing to fix it. BATFE has no problem with that. The obvious place to get a G2 is from Tapco. Someone else might post a link to a place that has them cheaper but you aren't getting raped at $32 anyway. When you have the gunsmith install it, watch him. Its not that hard and its something you might want to do one day for cleaning purposes and such. |
Wrong, bad advice. ATF considers it an MG, regardless of what your "intent" was. If you possess the MG and it's not registered to you, you are in possession of an unregistered MG- a felony. BATFE does care and will go after you. Sad state of affairs.  www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2008/03/13/ldt.tucker.govt.guns.cnn |
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All crimes require an element of intent. I have had this conversation with BATFE NFA branch in the past and they have assured me that someone in Matt15's position would not be prosecuted as long as they promptly fixed the problem or were attempting to promptly fix the problem when the existence of the firearm became known to BATFE. This is NOT the same thing as having a broken firearm and leaving it that way intentionally over a period of time because its fun to let it malfunction and hang on for the ride. Nevertheless, I agree with you that the case represents a great injustice and abuse of the system by overzealous BATFE agents. Screw it, I'll call NFA branch about it again on Monday and ask them what they think of the sitaution in the light of Olsen's conviction. Will post the substance of the conversation here. |
Intent: Possession of a MG that is unregistered requires that you simply have knowledge that it is an MG, THAT'S IT. You are confusing "manufacture" with "possession." The mens rea component for the latter is exactly as I describe and I would not rely on anecdotal explanations from a faceless BATFE employee to refute same. He is, according to 5845(b), in possession of an unregistered MG RIGHT NOW as we debate this issue. I'm not happy about it, but I'm absolutely right. |
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A malfunctioning semi auto is not a machine gun. However, I would not shoot it until it's fixed. One of the ways the gov't convinced the jury that the member intended to possess a machine gun was to show them the instructions on semi to full conversion that the member had. The full auto parts in the rifle probably didn't help him either. |
Wrong- by definition, a malfunctioning AR that fires "more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger" is, in fact, a machine gun. All you need to do is read the law; it's rather clear. |
What is clear is the use of the word "Intent" used by the BATF&E, once that comes to the table anything is possible. If I own a drill bit and a drill press and the drill bit is the same size as the pin for drilling out the third axis hole, that could be taken as "Intent" |
The law is rarely clear. That's why some people (attorneys) can make a living interpreting and applying it. That being said, the Internal Revenue Code defines a "machine gun" as a weapon designed or redesigned, or made or remade to shoot more than one shot from a single manipulation of the trigger without manual reloading. A malfunctioning semi rifle was not "... designed or redesigned, or made or remade..." to shoot more than one shot with a single manipulation of the trigger. By definition it is not a "machine gun". It is a malfunctioning semiautomatic rifle. ETA: If you were correct it would be another reason never to own a AR.
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Oh boy. 26 USC § 5845(b) is anything but unclear. I guess I should just post the law so as to illustrate that your paraphrase is the only thing causing confusion here (at least for one of us). You paraphrased the law to focus on "design"; you left out the probative part as it relates to this discussion. It states:
Please notice the phrase "which shoots." The AR that malfunctions to shoot double-fires is a machinegun- you are wrong. You may be unhappy about it, but that is the law. Don't shoot the messenger. You don't need to have a law degree to understand this- it really is plain and clear. Neither am I, by virtue of my JD status, somehow warping language to confuse the masses. The "design" language is a separate phrase in the first sentence (see the connector "or") and also found in a separate sentence and is therefore inclusive of, not exclusive of, the possessive language in the first sentence. See how it is prefaced with "[t]he term shall also include . . ."; that means it's in addition to the first part. See how the first sentence states "or" after the design verbiage? That means it can simply be an AR that, although not designed that way, fires double shots. BTW, I wish you were correct, I really do. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - partial full auto? (Page 1 of 2)
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