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Posted: 12/10/2009 6:18:49 PM EDT
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This isn't about which people prefer, but instead why 'they' went to polymer coated steel cases instead of lacquer (or copper washed or bimetal in the case of some such as 7.62x54R). First black box Wolf (Tula) switched, then the Wolf Military Classic (Uly). Now I see that Brown Bear is switching to poly coated cases. I've heard that they switched because of the complaints or rumors that the lacquer gums up people's guns or that the Russian military switched and therefore the state ammo factories are switching.
I know that the poly cases rust after handling the ammo, unlike the lacquered cases. Are the days of getting lacquered steel cased ammo with sealed primers and bullets coming to an end? |
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I do not understand this myself. In the early 90's Chinese ammo was everywhere for $ 69-79 per 1k. Copper washed is a great ammo finish in my opinion,
lacquer is also great. However, I have not purchased a single round of Polymer rounds until I have to in 7.62x39. Polymer ammo sucks, it does not protect nearly as much as lacquer finishes. Polymer is for shooting now, lacquer is for storing. |
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Quoted:
I do not understand this myself. In the early 90's Chinese ammo was everywhere for $ 69-79 per 1k. Copper washed is a great ammo finish in my opinion, lacquer is also great. However, I have not purchased a single round of Polymer rounds until I have to in 7.62x39. Polymer ammo sucks, it does not protect nearly as much as lacquer finishes. Polymer is for shooting now, lacquer is for storing. That's what I'm doing myself. The poly stuff shoots just fine even if rusted (fired some loose rounds I left in my range bag a few years after handling them) but prefer the lacquer stuff for 'go-to' ammo. |
| I have been shooting a Romanian WASR 10 using 7.62x39 Brown Bear LAQUOR coated with no problems...I noticed in sept 09 when i went to buy more ammo it was now POLY coated...I talked to my friend the owner of the gun store and he had not even noticed that his supplier was now sending him the POLY...He had no clue about what to say about it.....I have shot the POLY without a problem....SO i really enjoy hearing what other people can say about this......Thank you all for contributing...Merry Christmas |
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It could be for a any number of reasons. I think the 2 most likely are:
1. Cost 2. The B.S. rumor that people spread about the lacquer melting off the casing and causing jams. The ammo manufacturers just decided it would be easier to switch from lacquer than to try and educate everyone. |
| I'm not sure what the stink is against the poly cases. I only have 90s Norinco lacquer coated cases to compare to my new Brown Bear poly. When I opened my first box of BB poly I was impressed as the cases are super smooth and feel like an anodized non-stick pan. I don't see how the BB poly cases could corrode like others are mentioning simply from handling. I've loaded and cycled a bunch through weapons and on and off stripper clips. No corrosion months later. |
Well that settles it for sure...
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I'm not sure what the stink is against the poly cases. I only have 90s Norinco lacquer coated cases to compare to my new Brown Bear poly. When I opened my first box of BB poly I was impressed as the cases are super smooth and feel like an anodized non-stick pan. I don't see how the BB poly cases could corrode like others are mentioning simply from handling. I've loaded and cycled a bunch through weapons and on and off stripper clips. No corrosion months later. Perhaps BB uses a different coating than Wolf? I've only seen pics of the new poly BB online so I can't compare it first hand. |
| The Russian military changed their ammo specs from lacquer-coated steel to polymer-coated steel. FWIW, you can hold a propane torch up to a lacquer case and the lacquer won't melt off; it's not melting in the chamber. Polymer is probably lighter, cheaper, and easier to apply consistently (lacquer often has drips and runs) |
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It could be for a any number of reasons. I think the 2 most likely are: 1. Cost 2. The B.S. rumor that people spread about the lacquer melting off the casing and causing jams. The ammo manufacturers just decided it would be easier to switch from lacquer than to try and educate everyone. It may not melt, but it sure is dirty compared to brass. I have some polymer coated on the way, so I will know soon enough if it is as disgusting as the lacquer. But I do know for sure that the greasiness of the lacquer does rub off on the gun, making a bigger mess than usual. Not to mention the red sealant on old lacquer ammo gets everywhere gumming up stuff. Just my experience and $.02 |
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It could be for a any number of reasons. I think the 2 most likely are: 1. Cost 2. The B.S. rumor that people spread about the lacquer melting off the casing and causing jams. The ammo manufacturers just decided it would be easier to switch from lacquer than to try and educate everyone. It may not melt, but it sure is dirty compared to brass. I have some polymer coated on the way, so I will know soon enough if it is as disgusting as the lacquer. But I do know for sure that the greasiness of the lacquer does rub off on the gun, making a bigger mess than usual. Not to mention the red sealant on old lacquer ammo gets everywhere gumming up stuff. Just my experience and $.02 The dirtyness has nothing to do with the lacquer coating. It has everything to do with the steel casings. Brass casings expand uniformly in the chamber (effectively sealing it up). The steel casings tend not to expand uniformly. When the steel casings do not expand perfectly and seal up the chamber, carbon residue and other crap can begin to build up in the chamber. I have never had a problem with the red sealant on the primer and neck. I prefer it as it seal the ammo from the elements. In the wild, AKs feed extensively on steel cased, lacquer coated, and red sealed ammo. In fact they were probably designed with that diet in mind. |
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My guess is that it was for the US market and the perceived "lacquer melting" nonsense. It got a bad reputation, and they came up with something else. The "polymer" cases are much more likely to rust actually. Does anyone know for sure if current military ammo has switched to polymer coating in Russia? Somehow I doubt it. |
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The whole idea of lacquer vs. poly is pretty much to do about nothing, the lacquer does melt somewhat but it's no biggie. The biggest problem I see is the steel case itself and peoples failure to maintain there weapon,it doesn't expand like brass and seal the chamber allowing blowby ie carbon buildup in the chamber which in most x 39 chambered rifle isn't a problem.
Where that is more of an issue is in rifles chambered for other calibers with tighter chambers like some AR's,especially if you shoot lots of steel case ammo and them switch over to brass without cleaning in between to remove the carbon buildup. As far as which one is the best it's pretty much a moot point since the only new production X39 ammo that is still lacquer coated is Golden Tiger. Personally I prefer the lacquer coating myself for long term storage,in a dry box it seem to make no difference but exposed to the elements I've seen the poly coat show signs of rust. |
. So the Russians made the switch to make the US consumer happy.
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Did Brown Bear (Barnaul) switch all production to polymer or do they still make the lacquered stuff? Ammotogo has both listed as available but that could be because they have new shipments in. There aren't any Academy stores around here but can Monarch (Barnaul) be expected to be switching to poly?
Also is it true there's no more Golden Tiger? |
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It could be for a any number of reasons. I think the 2 most likely are: 1. Cost 2. The B.S. rumor that people spread about the lacquer melting off the casing and causing jams. The ammo manufacturers just decided it would be easier to switch from lacquer than to try and educate everyone. i've heard this very often especially with ar15s. i'm sure many other members remember hearing such things as "my chamber is gummed up and my gun jams" or "dont shoot that cheap wolf shit, it'll gum up your rifle". i don't know if this talk was enough to make the manufacturers change their ways or not... i wonder if any long term durability/storage tests have been done comparing laquer coated ammo to polymer coated ammo. it just looks a hell of a lot more reassuring to see sealant around the primer and case mouth on the laquer coated ammo. |
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In my experience with my vz-58, the laquer coating tends to flake and chip off in really small pieces upon feeding and is also not applied very consistently to each of the cases. Cleaning the little bits of lacquer out of my vz-58's forward action is a breeze and I doubt it a affect the reliability of the weapon (it might, but I've yet to have a malfunction with my vz-58). I also doubt that the uneven coating make a real difference with the ammunition's preformance. I have had some rounds that had big pieces of laquer flake off due to an uneven coating and the uneven coating may affect accuracy, but I doubt it would be noticable in most AK's or similar rifles.
I just fired a bunch of Wolf MC poly rounds out of my vz-58 for the first time and I did not notice the same problems. The poly coating was evenly applied and, apart from a little bit of carbon that inevitably gets into the action, the action of the rifle was spotless. Maybe a Russian armorer or an engineer from Barnaul, Uly, etc. could explain the advantages but I suspect they are the small benifits I came up with above. ETA: my favorite steel case coating is still copper washed by far... |
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The dirtyness has nothing to do with the lacquer coating. It has everything to do with the steel casings. Brass casings expand uniformly in the chamber (effectively sealing it up). The steel casings tend not to expand uniformly. When the steel casings do not expand perfectly and seal up the chamber, carbon residue and other crap can begin to build up in the chamber. I have never had a problem with the red sealant on the primer and neck. I prefer it as it seal the ammo from the elements. In the wild, AKs feed extensively on steel cased, lacquer coated, and red sealed ammo. In fact they were probably designed with that diet in mind. I meant the ammo itself is dirty and greasy. Handle a few hundred rounds of Wolf, loading magazines, transferring from cardboard boxes to a .50 cal can, etc, see how nasty your hands get. And unless you don't detail clean your weapon, or don't shoot much, I don't see how you could NOT notice the sealant issues. After a couple hundred rounds, the receiver and BCG is LITTERED with little red bits that stick to the metal like glue. It's filthy. I wouldn't be surprised if after a thousand rounds or so you'd find some stuck in the firing pin channel. It may "seal" the cartridge slightly better than just a good crimp, but IMO, it's not worth it, as I don't plan to submerge my ammunition in water or leave it out in the mud. It stays in .50 cal cans until I shoot it or load it up in mags. |
ive got some poly coated rounds lying around that i handle but havent shot and i havent noticed any rust, or any of my loaded mags, that stuffs been plenty fingered it hasn't rusted either...i say that now, ill probably go upstairs and find all my ammo corroded together
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Quoted: ive got some poly coated rounds lying around that i handle but havent shot and i havent noticed any rust, or any of my loaded mags, that stuffs been plenty fingered it hasn't rusted either...i say that now, ill probably go upstairs and find all my ammo corroded together I keep my range ammo in an ammo can. One time, I went during a light drizzle, and left the can open while I was shooting. The next time around, there was a significant amount of rust on the polymer cases. They all shot fine, but it seems like the original "lacquer" coating was more protective. |
| not sure about ammo coating, my AKs and SKSs are not picky, but I have noticed the less I spend per round, the better it shoots. Yugo surplus > Barnaul (including the bears) > Wolf. The tiger stuff is OK, but not shot enough of it to judge. Just be careful with the yugo stuff as it is corrosive (I have many differences with a lot of people when it comes to corrosive ammo on this forum, but no rusty guns ;) ) |
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