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Posted: 1/12/2012 11:43:40 AM EDT
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First of all let me say that I am a Professional TIG Welder... Meaning I go to work everyday, and get paid to weld. I know what I am doing. With that said, I would like to weld my AK Romi Kit together. My flat is already bent, I need to install the rails yet. Once I have everything ready to go, what will I need to do as far as heat treating and such? Is this something that needs to be done prior to welding, and then again once it's welded? Or is it something that can be done after it's welded? Is there any order in which I would weld the trigger guard in before the front trunnion, or again would any order work?
If I would be possibly switching to an under fold stock at a later date, would it be a bad idea to weld everything as planned and screw the rear trunnion so that if I ever wanted to switch up my AK I could do so? I originally was going to rivet my AK together, but I honestly do not feel like shelling out the crazy $$$ for a rivet jig. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks! |
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First of all let me say that I am a Professional TIG Welder... I originally was going to rivet my AK together, but I honestly do not feel like shelling out the crazy $$$ for a rivet jig. Build your own jig. It's no big deal to reverse engineer your own jigs. I'd rather build the gun right with jigs that were slightly cobbled together than cobble together a gun because I didn't want to buy the jigs. |
| My Brother in Law is a welder for our national labs and is very proficient at what he does... I helped him build his own AK-74 and 47 I must say they are very good looking wiith no rivets..... But what we did is weld everything and then he ground everything smooth installed the trunnions and the rails and then since he has the gas torches also heat treated everything with the trunnions attached... Only the pin holes the the safety hole and the rails were treated then sand blasted so I could help him park it.... after this is done then its time to install the barrel and other componets. |
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and then since he has the gas torches also heat treated everything with the trunnions attached.
sorry to break this to you buddy, but taking a blow torch to the axle holes isn't "heat treating", at least not in the context of heat treating a receiver. Sure, it will give the area around the holes an unknown hardness that is probably greater than the rest of the receiver, but what about THE REST OF THE RECEIVER!!!!!? Heat treating, is done in a kiln/oven with specific temperature control, with the receiver securely clamped in a fixture to prevent warpage. Anything else is not "heat treat" in the sense of making the receiver a specific hardness. OP: Normally, it is done to the completed receiver before installing the trunions, as the trunions have a different heat-treat specification than the receiver. I don't recommend welding the receiver on principle. Most people have an unrealistic view of their competence as a welder, and a lack of understanding of the weld penetration between stick, MIG and TIG. You apparently are the exception as far as welding and can probably do a "safe" job. I still recommend against it. The gun flexes and yaws on all three axis during firing and rivets are the ideal fastener for this application. Must be why the designer chose rivets. There are many guns I've built that are supposed to be welded. AR-70s, HKs, Uzis, etc. The AK isn't one of them. If you are determined to destroy any future resale value on the gun, and choose to weld it anyway, then a proper oven heat treat on the receiver first, then deep, penetrating TIG welds on the trunion. Yugo sniper rifles (Tabuk) are welded on the front trunion, in addition to rivets. Seems to me, if welding was a suitable alternative, and they're welding anyway, they'd have welded the whole thing. But for some reason, they used rivets as well. |
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I have to agree with gunplumber.
Although I've not built near the number of rifles as GP, I have built a fair number of AKM variants. I learned a long time ago that you must have the right tools when building whatever you are building. I've never considered building an AK with anything other then the proper rivets. I don't understand the welding/screw builds. I would not feel comfortable firing a weapon built that way. Oh well, do what feels right for you. |
There were welded AKs, but like the milled AKs they were not the standard not because of the welding being inadequate but because rivets were so much more simpler and enough. Don't ask me where I get this from, like many of my physic books and medical manuals I read it and it's locked away in my mind but I remember in my research of the AK building process that welding was also tried. If I recall correctly there was some concern about the weld may possibly not be good enough because of who ever welded it (they didn't have CNC machining and welding back then) but ultimately rivets were chosen because of their cost and simplicity. That being said I wonder if mig, tig or anything other than spot welding would be necessary. The HK uses spot welding on the trunion in addition to some other welding (not sure what was originally used) so did Galil on the Uzi. Granted the Uzi is a sub caliber (9mm) but the HK is a 308. 
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I'm going to have say your memory is flawed - unless you can identify which AKs were welded?
I've got a pretty good reference library and can't find any welded model. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I'd need more than your say-so to believe it. I too, thought some of the prototypes were welded on the rear trunion, but after seeing the UK MOD Pattern Room disassembly diagram, I discovered they were actually riveted with externally flush rivet heads that only appeared to be welds in the pictures. As stated earlier, the only welds I've been able to confirm is Yugo/Egyption spot weld between the two rivets of the bulged trunion on the Tabuk. |
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I'm going to have say your memory is flawed - unless you can identify which AKs were welded? I've got a pretty good reference library and can't find any welded model. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I'd need more than your say-so to believe it. I too, thought some of the prototypes were welded on the rear trunion, but after seeing the UK MOD Pattern Room disassembly diagram, I discovered they were actually riveted with externally flush rivet heads that only appeared to be welds in the pictures. As stated earlier, the only welds I've been able to confirm is Yugo/Egyption spot weld between the two rivets of the bulged trunion on the Tabuk. Take a closer look at the prototypes and you'll find them. They are there and I have seen and read about them. My memory is hardly flawed, at least not yet. All my years of reading to remember has served me well and recently proven to be 100% accurate in the 922r discussions (I had only read the regulations once and yet it remained clear). If you're not willing to accept my memory you can accept the fact that HK continues to spot weld their trunions as proof that it is a standard in building rifles. Or Galil's Uzi as yet another. If you feel so inclined you could make some dimples behind the trunion in the receiver and weld those like HK does. My days of researching AK builds are over. The only exception would be things I have yet to read or learn about such as the armorers tools I had contacted you, Gunplumber, about (which I have had plenty of luck finding with Eastern European contacts, speaking/reading Russian helps!). While there are certainly ways AKs were massed produced (primarily rivets and milled receivers) there are plenty of ways to skin a cat if you so choose. None of mine have been anything but riveted but welding isn't a foreign concept when it comes to AKs (they spot welded lower rails and some side rails). And this is where I cease to comment on this.
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Well, you can cease to comment on whatever you want, but since I can't prove a negative, you're the only one who can prove your assertion.
Ill believe it when you can show me a picture of one. experimental #1 1947 looks like a spot weld on the rear trunion, but closer examination shows it's just a countersunk rivet. #2 1947 shows much more clearly it is rivet Experimental #3 looks like a weld on the bottom right rear trunion in one picture, but a different picture of the same gun shows it is clearly a flush rivet. #4-47 = rivet #5-47 = rivet #1 - 48 = rivet #4-48 = rivet (don't have images of #2 & #3-48 Type classified 47 = rivet experimental #1-50 looks like weld on the left side. what are the odds of suddenly switching to weld on one side only of the rear trunion while still riveting the front? I say it's just some rougness in the metal around the rivet. #2-50 clearly rivets 1951 rivets 1952 is milled 1955 rivets 1955-4 = rivets (now dome head so there is no doubt. 1955 -8 rivets and the model 2 is type classified as an AKM - rivets. So just where are these welds? There aren't any. There are no AKs, even in the experimental series, with welded trunions. |
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Well, you can cease to comment on whatever you want, but since I can't prove a negative, you're the only one who can prove your assertion. Ill believe it when you can show me a picture of one. experimental #1 1947 looks like a spot weld on the rear trunion, but closer examination shows it's just a countersunk rivet. #2 1947 shows much more clearly it is rivet Experimental #3 looks like a weld on the bottom right rear trunion in one picture, but a different picture of the same gun shows it is clearly a flush rivet. #4-47 = rivet #5-47 = rivet #1 - 48 = rivet #4-48 = rivet (don't have images of #2 & #3-48 Type classified 47 = rivet experimental #1-50 looks like weld on the left side. what are the odds of suddenly switching to weld on one side only of the rear trunion while still riveting the front? I say it's just some rougness in the metal around the rivet. #2-50 clearly rivets 1951 rivets 1952 is milled 1955 rivets 1955-4 = rivets (now dome head so there is no doubt. 1955 -8 rivets and the model 2 is type classified as an AKM - rivets. So just where are these welds? There aren't any. There are no AKs, even in the experimental series, with welded trunions. Go ahead and believe it or not I won't lose any sleep over it, but I'm not going to give you anything more than my word that I read welding was tried and determined inferior to the rivet fastening method (what I'm not certain on is if they figured it was truly inferior or just from a production standpoint too slow and unreliable that part is what I don't remember clearly). No, you're misunderstanding isn't my source, it was something I read on the history of the evolution of the AK back 6 or 7 years ago when I started to build my first AK. That being said, the question was whether or not weld would work and the answer is a resounding absolutely! I'm so glad that you can take the time to give unreferenced information on something and claim that my equally unreferenced information is some how different. Would you feel better if I placed a date next to when they attempted this? Giving me years of production AKs doesn't say anything about the prototypes they attempted and tested. I'm comfortable with the fact that they reportedly did and have nothing to prove otherwise. If I find it necessary to prove it I can go back to the various sources (both Russian and translated) and find it but don't feel it necessary. Good luck with your skepticism. Welding trunions is a practice by others in the firearm business of the same time period(s) and therefore an option even if I were making this all up (which I'm not). In fact the rumor is the AK was influenced by the same German guns as the Cetme which had spot welded trunions so it is even more likely that it was attempted with the AKs as they determined the best way to produce them.
* since you made me think about it more, I want to say the source was a book about or by the AK mastermind Mikhail Kalashnikov and the process of developing the rifle. You look hard enough if it's truly that important you should be able to find it. I'm content with my knowledge of the AK and how it is produced. |
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Take a closer look at the prototypes and you'll find them. They are there and I have seen and read about them.
I have examined detailed photographs of the prototypes - the ones listed in my post above and others. I think you are wrong and the overwhelming evidence agrees. The prototypes are not welded, they use flush rivets. Of course, all you'd have to do is post a picture of one that is welded. As I said before, it is not possible to prove a negative. None of the 20+ prototypes I have examined are welded - NONE! If you can produce one that is, that will prove your point. The why is a separate issue. That other guns from other manufacturers have been welded is irrelevant. Your statement was that you have seen prototype AKs that are welded, and there is no evidence to support this claim. There is plenty of evidence (all the prototypes I've listed above) to show your claim is false. But whatever, dude. My post is more to educate and provide clarity to other readers than an expectation that you will accept you're wrong. |
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Take a closer look at the prototypes and you'll find them. They are there and I have seen and read about them. I have examined detailed photographs of the prototypes - the ones listed in my post above and others. I think you are wrong and the overwhelming evidence agrees. The prototypes are not welded, they use flush rivets. Of course, all you'd have to do is post a picture of one that is welded. As I said before, it is not possible to prove a negative. None of the 20+ prototypes I have examined are welded - NONE! If you can produce one that is, that will prove your point. The why is a separate issue. That other guns from other manufacturers have been welded is irrelevant. Your statement was that you have seen prototype AKs that are welded, and there is no evidence to support this claim. There is plenty of evidence (all the prototypes I've listed above) to show your claim is false. But whatever, dude. My post is more to educate and provide clarity to other readers than an expectation that you will accept you're wrong. Since you want to quote things, please feel free to share with me the quote where I claimed to have seen one and not read about it in my research. The evidence is strong that it was considered despite whatever I might have read. If you are at all familiar with the AK system you know there are variables more than just 20 prototypes and having sampled a few doesn't disprove the existence of at least one that was spot welded (from what I read they didn't spend much time with the idea of welding them). Contrary to your belief that I can't accept that I'm wrong I can. You go ahead and review the hundreds of prototypes and even the plans (even the patent doesn't specify which fasteners were to be used, but gotta read Russian to know that) and get good old MTK to admit it and then maybe you have a case. But simply providing the few 'prototype' that became production models and unsourced/referenced claims that what you think you know is all there is doesn't prove a single thing. You like to argue and that's fine. As for me, I have shared what I have read and additional proof that welding the trunion is an acceptable method for others using 'front trunions' of greater calibers to show that welding the trunion on an AK is perfectly capable of doing the job. That was the original question and not if some guy in the US has a clue what has happened in Eastern Europe long before either of us were born. All that being said, we have had some in our build group weld the trunion in the receiver and it looks great! Having had no need to cut it and examine the weld like is done during state welding certifications I can't say how good the two different kinds of metals combined, but I wouldn't hesitate a second to shoot those that have been made by the welders in our group (who chose to do it despite having plenty of rivet jigs readily available). As for screwing the rear trunion I used to do that before testing them at the range to make sure everything was going to be in the right place and not have a dust cover pop off while shooting or need to work the upper rails more (when I made our own receivers, it's easier to work the rails without the trunions in place). And despite not using anything sort of threadlock I still have one AK in my cabinet I just haven't taken back to rivet the rear trunion and the screws remain pretty solid. Granted, we're not talking a screw build where the trunion is threaded by some bolts with nuts.
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Since you want to quote things, please feel free to share with me the quote where I claimed to have seen one and not read about it in my research. a few posts back, quoted in my last. I generally give you top scores on your contributions here - you, Poly, and few others are generally right on the money, but you're striking out this time, bro. |
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Since you want to quote things, please feel free to share with me the quote where I claimed to have seen one and not read about it in my research. a few posts back, quoted in my last. I generally give you top scores on your contributions here - you, Poly, and few others are generally right on the money, but you're striking out this time, bro. I never said I have seen one made, just read about them being welded. Considering the fact that my posts are what they are, you would think I wouldn't post unless I had reason to do so. I don't advocate anything questionable and your 'proof' doesn't disprove my having read what I have read or the likelihood that what I read was in fact accurate. I won't go back and research it all over again just to prove a point, Russian is harder than other languages for me and it was pure obsession that made me do it the first time. While I'm almost certain the place that reported it, apart from being from a reliable/authoritative source, was also in English at the time I read about it. It gave a rather thorough history of the development of the AK, that much I remember. But the fact remains undisputed that welding should be more than adequate if some one wanted to do that.
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| I have seen and shot one welded (stamped) receiver Ak-47 and Ak-74 so I know they work and function well... Now would I build one for my self... Only if I was damm good at welding and since Im not I don't own one.... But with all the arguing aside yes it can be done and yes it can be heat treated (spots) and I think it looks cool with clean sides....But to each his own,,, My first build was a Screw Build since I couldn't rivet at the time and it went 500+ rounds before I rebuilt it as a traditional wood Romy Ak47 with all the correct rivets and markings.... But that docent say it was not a good rife just that I wanted to explore a different road and It all worked out fine... Good luck on your Weld build and go for it..... |
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who gives a shit. back then riveting was what was the easiest and cheapest to do. the ak is not a very scientific
weapon. through the years you would of figured that the way one was built would of changed through industrial advancements, but everyone stuck with what worked because it worked, it was a cheap weapon and nobody gave a shit. 
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Hello, replying to this thread with an update. I did in fact decide against welding my ak together. I machined my own rivet jigs and all went well!! Thanks for the helpful influence guys! http://www-scf.usc.edu/~ryanbruc/ChosenWisely.jpg Yep, like he said...and I said earlier. |
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