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Posted: 4/2/2006 8:45:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 8:48:56 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Does it make any difference if it's pulled towards the muzzle, pushed towards the muzzle, pushed from the muzzle, or pulled from the muzzle?

I know the correct way to clean is from breech to muzzle, but I was just curious if the patten of the bristles on the brush makes any difference going with or against the rifling.

I usually use a bore snake, but decided to give the Dewey rod and chamber guide a try.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:05:28 PM EDT
The main concern about cleaning from the muzzle is damage to the crown by way of rod contact.That said some weapons have to be cleaned from the muzzle end...a muzzle guide is the answer there.
I myself clean from the breech and the brush is forced through and removed at the muzzle.So yes I believe the brush should only go the way the bullet goes...thats in the breech and out the muzzle.That said I do not believe the brush could or can cause any damage by pulling it back through.I just like to remove the brush once it leaves the bore.
HTH
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:05:45 AM EDT
I run the brush both directions from the chamber end. 3k later still holds 1.5 moa same as it did with 10 rounds thru the rifle.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:31:35 AM EDT
YMMV, but when giving my AR15 rifles a good bore cleaning I clean from the chanrging handle end, using a Ray Vin bore guide, Dewey rod and nylon bore brush.

I place a rag at the end of the bore guide to STOP the foward motion of the bore brush about halfway outta the muzzle/FS (depending on which rifle I'm cleaning). This way the bore brush never exits the muzzle end of the barrel, which is done to protect the muzzle crown on non-FS equipped barrels.

I was taught the bore brush should never exit the barrel (when cleaning from the breach/chamber end of a rifle); the exception being M1 carbines, M1 Garands, M14s and other rifles wich require cleaning from the muzzle. On these rifles I generally prefer running a bore snake type of device unless the bore is really filthy.

When cleaning the bore on my ARs or bolt rifles, it is done "warm" (not hot!) from shooting and I use a vigorus back and forth motion (up bore and back counts as one stroke) for around 40-50 strokes. My bore cleaner (Sweets 7.62) makes a nice blue froth, which is rinsed completely from the rod, bore brush and bore of barrel using SuperTech 2000 carb cleaner. A patch is then run and bore inspected; depending on the rounds fired that shooting session it may or may not take and additional cleaning, (repaeat of bore cleaning process).

Hope this is some help.

Mike
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:43:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
YMMV, but when giving my AR15 rifles a good bore cleaning I clean from the chanrging handle end, using a Ray Vin bore guide, Dewey rod and nylon bore brush.

I place a rag at the end of the bore guide to STOP the foward motion of the bore brush about halfway outta the muzzle/FS (depending on which rifle I'm cleaning). This way the bore brush never exits the muzzle end of the barrel, which is done to protect the muzzle crown on non-FS equipped barrels.

I was taught the bore brush should never exit the barrel (when cleaning from the breach/chamber end of a rifle); the exception being M1 carbines, M1 Garands, M14s and other rifles wich require cleaning from the muzzle. On these rifles I generally prefer running a bore snake type of device unless the bore is really filthy.

When cleaning the bore on my ARs or bolt rifles, it is done "warm" (not hot!) from shooting and I use a vigorus back and forth motion (up bore and back counts as one stroke) for around 40-50 strokes. My bore cleaner (Sweets 7.62) makes a nice blue froth, which is rinsed completely from the rod, bore brush and bore of barrel using SuperTech 2000 carb cleaner. A patch is then run and bore inspected; depending on the rounds fired that shooting session it may or may not take and additional cleaning, (repaeat of bore cleaning process).

Hope this is some help.

Mike



How does the flash hider protect the bore from the brush? I don't see a problem in the brush coming out the end, as if a bullet would, unless you mean exiting and then yanking it back in for a reverse stroke.

I would just push the brush through, when it comes out the muzzle, remove the brush and pull the rod back through, but then again, I don't plan on 40-50 strokes on my chrome-lined barrel. Just a few pushes through.

Whats' the difference between brushes? I see nylon, phosphor bronze, etc.

I'm just using a standard GI one right now that came with my Otis boresnake kit. Just standard bronze I'd assume.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:12:54 AM EDT
M4, on CMP rifles it has been shown that exitting a muzzel with a bore brush will change the dia of the barrel right at the muzzel. It puts kind of a slight tapper into the muzzel crown area.

Will the normal shooter see this "accuracy" problem. If you cant shoot high master on a CMP course of fire, I would not worry about shooting the brush out of the muzzel.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:32:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
M4, on CMP rifles it has been shown that exitting a muzzel with a bore brush will change the dia of the barrel right at the muzzel. It puts kind of a slight tapper into the muzzel crown area.

Will the normal shooter see this "accuracy" problem. If you cant shoot high master on a CMP course of fire, I would not worry about shooting the brush out of the muzzel.



Why does he say on non-FS barrels though? How does the FS have anything to do with it?

What is the proper way to do it then? Bring the brush out the muzzle half way, and just pull it back through the bore and out the chamber guide? I have no problem doing that if it's the correct way.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:29:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 9:30:10 AM EDT by metroplex]
Otis cable + attachments here. Shooting the rifle will also wear out the muzzle a little.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:42:58 AM EDT
I have AR15 rifles w/ varying flash-suppressors and I have a long range Elite stainless steel barreled AR15 with no FS, (bare "crowned" barrel).

I never let my bore brush "completely" exit the muzzle on either set-up.

The reason is noted above by Gregory_K.

Note: I never said the FS protects the bore/barrel and yes as I use a back and forth motion during my bore cleaning I NEVER want the brush to exit the muzzle end of the barrel. IF that happens I remove the brush pull rod back thru and re-install the bore brush.

Hope this clearer for ya.

The point being whether it's a "crowned" bare barrel or a chrome lined w/ FS barrel I am very cognizant and careful of the muzzle end of the barrel and want to do no damage in any manner to that end of the barrel.

Mike
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:05:46 AM EDT
Reversing the direction of your brush inside the bore does more damage than letting it pass out of the muzzle.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:26:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Reversing the direction of your brush inside the bore does more damage than letting it pass out of the muzzle.



And the old fella that taught me, my dad and my uncle how to clean our rifle barrels (whether $300 Kriegers or chrome-lined AR barrels) would disagree w/ ya.

As he got both dad, I and my uncle into long range shooting, built our rifles and has been at this for more than 4 decades, believe I'd sooner take HIS ADVICE, over a nobody, (sorry, but I picked on your "User Info" button and your nobody there....., no offense intended)

Mike

ps - seriously, would ya take the advice of somebody on the internet or the man who built your 2K rifles?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:44:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 10:49:49 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Reversing the direction of your brush inside the bore does more damage than letting it pass out of the muzzle.



And the old fella that taught me, my dad and my uncle how to clean our rifle barrels (whether $300 Kriegers or chrome-lined AR barrels) would disagree w/ ya.

As he got both dad, I and my uncle into long range shooting, built our rifles and has been at this for more than 4 decades, believe I'd sooner take HIS ADVICE, over a nobody, (sorry, but I picked on your "User Info" button and your nobody there....., no offense intended)

Mike

ps - seriously, would ya take the advice of somebody on the internet or the man who built your 2K rifles?



No offense taken. I don't know you from Adam, but actually I'd take the advice of someone on the Internet with a grain of salt and conduct my own research into this topic, rather than take the word of someone who builds and sells rifle parts as absolute gospel. Ask 20 gunsmiths/custom builders and they'll give you 60 different ways on how to clean your $2000 long range shooter.

I have read on more than one occaison that changing direction with a metal brush inside the bore will wear out the brush faster and cause damage to the bore. Breech to muzzle is the direction the bullets travel.

Alternatively you COULD use only nylon/plastic brushes, but saying that the crown/muzzle will be damaged because you let the brush pop out is kind of ridiculous. On a 7.62x39 bore (just as an example), a bullet that is about 0.012" oversized (compared to the ID formed by the grooves) squeezed through the bore at 2200-2500 fps is probably going to do more "damage" to the bore than letting the brush pop out under manual pressure. And OH the HORROR - to think of a 122 gr bullet being squeezed out at the muzzle... it'll change the OD just a little.... let's not fire any more bullets out of the bore!

Since it is your $2000 high power long range toy, you should heed the advice of whomever will provide warranty service / tech support.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:52:05 PM EDT
I'm still confused as to how I should clean it with a rod...

What about the use of a boresnake? The only way you're going to get it out is letting it pop out the muzzle. There is no other alternative...

Are nylon brushes easier on the bore, but still clean just as well?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:41:02 PM EDT
What do you want from your rifle?

I have been cleaning all my rifles the same for years punching the brush all the way thru. To date all my rifles still hold better than I can and still hold the same or near the same MOA as new.

Some only get used a few times a year others get a used 2 to 3 times a month.


If you have some 2,000 dollar National Match Ar15 Clean it like Mr Wilson suggests ( I use bronze brushes in stead of nylon)

If you have a 800 dollar general issue AR-15 Clean it how you want, just clean it from the breach end.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:08:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
What do you want from your rifle?

I have been cleaning all my rifles the same for years punching the brush all the way thru. To date all my rifles still hold better than I can and still hold the same or near the same MOA as new.

Some only get used a few times a year others get a used 2 to 3 times a month.


If you have some 2,000 dollar National Match Ar15 Clean it like Mr Wilson suggests ( I use bronze brushes in stead of nylon)

If you have a 800 dollar general issue AR-15 Clean it how you want, just clean it from the breach end.



Actually if I had a $2000 NM AR-15, I'd treat it like a normal AR-15 and just get a new barrel when it wears out. The barrel is not really married to the whole gun. I personally do not buy into the "national match" advertising trend.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:54:18 PM EDT
True the last National Match rifle was the M14.

You first have to be able to shoot at a national match level to see any benfit that NM will bring to you on the Ar platform.



Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:58:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
I'm still confused as to how I should clean it with a rod...

What about the use of a boresnake? The only way you're going to get it out is letting it pop out the muzzle. There is no other alternative...

Are nylon brushes easier on the bore, but still clean just as well?



I have some boresnakes but I find that they're expensive and have significant drawbacks. The "patch" is the nylon material, and the "brush" is a bunch of bronze bristles that cannot be replaced. CLP is a PITA to clean out from the nylon. I've tried:

-hot water
-soap / dishwashing detergent / simple green / slip 2000 carbon cutter
-scrubbing

And finally I just gave up and switched over to the Otis cable, patch loop, and brush. The Otis cable has a lifetime warranty and is easily cleaned with soap and water. The patches are disposable (I use regular 2.5" square patches for my .22 and .30 bores) and the brushes are replaceable. I used to think my bores weren't getting cleaned properly until I stuck a white Q-tip through the muzzle and chamber for inspection and saw the mirror-like polish surface of the bore and how "spotless" it was. I just the bore brush, patches, and regular CLP. Of course I only have chrome-lined bores and chambers, which makes cleaning easier. This may or may not be the "correct" cleaning procedure for $2000 national match long range high power bores, but it's a safe and effective way of cleaning TDP-compliant rifle barrels.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:30:28 PM EDT
I don't want to get in the middle of this cat fight.........

[ I use a vigorus back and forth motion (up bore and back counts as one stroke) for around 40-50 strokes. ]

Reversing a bore brush inside a barrel while cleaning is an extreme NO NO....... If you feel that advice is in error, I suggest you contact the "Marksmanship Training unit #1 " of the U.S> Army and take it up with them.

Page 0014 00-3 of the US Military Operator's Manual for the Rilfe 5.56mm M16A2, M16A3, M16A4, M4A1 ------

(3.) Attach the bore brush. When using bore brush, don't reverse directions while in bore.

October 1998

That's the military's take on the matter......... but in America, everyone is free to do whatever they want to their barrels.

JF
PS..Yes I am a nobody too if you check my user's Info <smile>
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 3:06:43 AM EDT
Bushmaster's manual states never to reverse the direction of the bore brush in the barrel.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 3:20:53 AM EDT
I reverse in the bore on my M1A. I use a worn bore brush to do this. DO NOT try it with a new non worn brush. The brush will get jammed in the barrel.

For a NM match built rifle I have treatted the rifle like shit, but it still holds just over 1moa for me w/ irons in the slow fire on a 200 yard course.

When I shoot this barrel out, I may get a better one or just have another wilson ss put on. It's not like I have any plans to go to Perry.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 1:47:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Reversing the direction of your brush inside the bore does more damage than letting it pass out of the muzzle.



+1

This is what I've always heard,

Mr. Wilson -
Here is my question, you let the brush get halfway out of the muzzle you say? How is that much better than going ALL the way out?? It seems to me bristles are still going to "whip" out the same for the first inch or so as with the second inch? I'm just curious. I try to be careful with all my guns regardless. But I've just always ran patches through, and ran brushes chamber out of muzzle, then back through...

Gundraw
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 2:39:54 PM EDT
Is it fine to pull the brush back through?

With a rod, it'd be way easier to scrub the bore well by letting the brush pop out the muzzle, and then pulling it back through very carefully.

If not, it's not big deal popping it out the muzzle and then unscrewing it. By the way, I love my new Dewey rod and chamber guide. So easy and convenient
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:16:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Is it fine to pull the brush back through?

With a rod, it'd be way easier to scrub the bore well by letting the brush pop out the muzzle, and then pulling it back through very carefully.

If not, it's not big deal popping it out the muzzle and then unscrewing it. By the way, I love my new Dewey rod and chamber guide. So easy and convenient



According to many, no, that is not a good idea. You want to minimize throat erosion by moving the crap away from the chamber.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:39:29 PM EDT
What a lot of people are missing.....is the correct way in which you want the bore brush to clean the lands.
Round off the edges of your barrel's lands [ by improper technique ] .........and you will reduce accuracy of that barrel.

Here is the correct way in which the bore brush should clean the lands and grooves. The Bore Brush should follow the TWIST RATE of your barrel.........meaning the bore brush should SPIN as it is moving down the barrel. In this way the bore brush's bristles are not dragged across the lands......but instead while spinning, will follow them....causing a lot less damage.

I cringe when I hear people reversing the bore brush repeatedly inside their barrel...........image how the wire bristles are being compressed and scraped over the lands at the point of reversal !!!

Why do you think cleaning rods are made with handles that free spin ?????? Yep, so your bore brush can rotate or spin with the lands and grooves as you push it through.........

JF.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:25:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sniper350:
What a lot of people are missing.....is the correct way in which you want the bore brush to clean the lands.
Round off the edges of your barrel's lands [ by improper technique ] .........and you will reduce accuracy of that barrel.

Here is the correct way in which the bore brush should clean the lands and grooves. The Bore Brush should follow the TWIST RATE of your barrel.........meaning the bore brush should SPIN as it is moving down the barrel. In this way the bore brush's bristles are not dragged across the lands......but instead while spinning, will follow them....causing a lot less damage.

I cringe when I hear people reversing the bore brush repeatedly inside their barrel...........image how the wire bristles are being compressed and scraped over the lands at the point of reversal !!!

Why do you think cleaning rods are made with handles that free spin ?????? Yep, so your bore brush can rotate or spin with the lands and grooves as you push it through.........

JF.



You hit the head of the nail.

That's what I was looking for. I knew the bristles on the brush only spun in one direction, and was wondering if it would still spin or clean properly going in the opposite direction.

Thanks. I'll use the push through the bore and out the muzzle, remove brush and then repeat method :)
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 6:00:27 PM EDT
My dewy rod spins on both the push and pull.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 6:14:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
My dewy rod spins on both the push and pull.



Damn now I'm confused again.

But while somewhat on topic, the ball bearing in the handle is crazy haha I love spinning it, like a little child.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 8:51:15 PM EDT
As a traditional BP shooter, with several hand made flintlocks, the word on cleaning those is never use a bronze brush. Period. Since we clean from the muzzle and the rear is breached, the brissles would have to 'change direction' in the bore, and if tight can even get stuck in the bore. That point of reversal is where the damage is being done from the pressure of the reversing brissles from what I understand (from long time bp shooters much older and wiser than me). My slightly undersized brushes are nylon and I almost never use them. I prefer to flush from the touch hole with a special tube clamped to it.

All my 'modern' rifles are cleaned from the breach if possible and I let the brush leave the bore, it will do less damage than reversing inside the bore. I am also careful at that point, and push it through slowly so as not to bang the metal at the end of the rod on the crown.

Lois
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:06:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
My dewy rod spins on both the push and pull.



Damn now I'm confused again.

But while somewhat on topic, the ball bearing in the handle is crazy haha I love spinning it, like a little child.



It has to spin so your brush or patch follows the rifling. Bushmaster recommends loosening the brush/jag by a few turns so it can spin freely. The Dewey bearing simply lets it spin w/o requiring you to loosen it.

With an Otis cable, the brush or patch will follow the rifling as well.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:13:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
My dewy rod spins on both the push and pull.



Damn now I'm confused again.

But while somewhat on topic, the ball bearing in the handle is crazy haha I love spinning it, like a little child.



It has to spin so your brush or patch follows the rifling. Bushmaster recommends loosening the brush/jag by a few turns so it can spin freely. The Dewey bearing simply lets it spin w/o requiring you to loosen it.

With an Otis cable, the brush or patch will follow the rifling as well.



Yeah I know, but he said his spins on the pull also, meaning the bore brush works both ways, but I've heard otherwise. Which is what confused me again. All these mixed opinions lol

A jag spins in the barrel? I never really noticed it.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 4:56:33 PM EDT
My jags only spin on the push stroke. The patch falls off when the jag exits the muzzel.

Brushes work both ways, just like a tooth brush. I cant shoot at a Grand master level so any harm I am doing pulling the brush back, I'll never see.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:02:05 AM EDT
I cant shoot at a Grand master level so any harm I am doing pulling the brush back, I'll never see. Gregory_K

========================================================

Gregory hit the nail on the head.........many of us don't have the skill to notice the damage we are doing to our weapons on a weekly, monthly or yearly basis. So it is said that "ignornace is bliss" .......and to many of us that is very true.

But we should never say because we can't tell the difference............that no damage must be occuring, because that would be wrong and shows our ignornace......

JF.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:06:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 9:07:35 AM EDT by metroplex]
The uber super secret squirrel bad ass snipers should just change barrels after every shoot or follow a totally different set of rules. Don't you ditch the stainless bull barrels after a few thousand rounds anyhow because they will no longer shoot 0.25 MOA? I went with chrome-lined 4150 steel barrels for the longevity and reliability in adverse conditions, not because I need to hollow out a dime at 800m. I just follow the standard procedures approved through research by .MIL 87 times.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:32:14 PM EDT
[ I went with chrome-lined 4150 steel barrels for the longevity and reliability in adverse conditions, not because I need to hollow out a dime at 800m ]

================================================================

It is true barrels have a certain life span.............. but to nail that "life" down to specific number of rounds is very hard to do. A shooter will notice when his rifle is starting to require more "adjustments" and then will know it is time to change the set-up.

Barrels often have a sweet spot at their Mid-life of their usable sniper work. This occurs IMHO after the barrel has mated to the round being used.......and any microscopic high spots have been worn down.

No..............never hollowed out a dime at 800 meters............... but it was required to hit center of a dime at 100 meters....before you could shoot with the "big boys" . It didn't count if your round split the edge of the dime at any spot. We were using .243 cal Douglas Bull barrels. After you could prove you and your rifle were ready to compete & train ............... we moved to thumb tacks at 100 meters.
Our game was "ultra accuracy" at short range......as opposed to the long shooters we worked with.
Some of the guys I worked with could lay 3 rounds one on top of the other.....at the 100 meter mark. You needed a Micrometer......to decide who was the winner.

"Ultra" shooters do exist............and Have a specific talent and job. And they do worry about "anything" that could harm their barrels even at the microscopic level !

JF.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 1:26:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 1:27:54 PM EDT by Shoes]
I am brand new to AR's, and had a concern regarding the bore brush.

I've only had it to the range once. When I was cleaning it afterward, I was alarmed at how hard it was to push the brush through. It is a .22 centerfire brass Shooter's Choice brush. I took it off after one time through because I was afraid of damaging the bore. Same thing with the chamber brush. It was so hard to get in the chamber, I just pulled it back out for fear of damaging it.

As I said, I'm new to this platform and this caliber. I'm used to cleaning .30 cal bores, and my .30 cal brushes go through with much less effort than that .223 brush did.

Is this normal, or is it something I need to be concerned about?

<edit> BTW, it's a chrome lined CMMG barrel.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 3:14:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shoes:
I am brand new to AR's, and had a concern regarding the bore brush.

I've only had it to the range once. When I was cleaning it afterward, I was alarmed at how hard it was to push the brush through. It is a .22 centerfire brass Shooter's Choice brush. I took it off after one time through because I was afraid of damaging the bore. Same thing with the chamber brush. It was so hard to get in the chamber, I just pulled it back out for fear of damaging it.

As I said, I'm new to this platform and this caliber. I'm used to cleaning .30 cal bores, and my .30 cal brushes go through with much less effort than that .223 brush did.

Is this normal, or is it something I need to be concerned about?

<edit> BTW, it's a chrome lined CMMG barrel.



There should be quite a bit of tension pulling or pushing the brush through. That's what gives it the good scrubbing that it needs. :)
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 4:05:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:

Originally Posted By Shoes:
I am brand new to AR's, and had a concern regarding the bore brush.

I've only had it to the range once. When I was cleaning it afterward, I was alarmed at how hard it was to push the brush through. It is a .22 centerfire brass Shooter's Choice brush. I took it off after one time through because I was afraid of damaging the bore. Same thing with the chamber brush. It was so hard to get in the chamber, I just pulled it back out for fear of damaging it.

As I said, I'm new to this platform and this caliber. I'm used to cleaning .30 cal bores, and my .30 cal brushes go through with much less effort than that .223 brush did.

Is this normal, or is it something I need to be concerned about?

<edit> BTW, it's a chrome lined CMMG barrel.



There should be quite a bit of tension pulling or pushing the brush through. That's what gives it the good scrubbing that it needs. :)



For some reason I notice the same thing with my .311 bore. The ID between the grooves measures roughly .3" but the 30 cal brushes don't have as much resistance when pulling/pushing it through the bore.
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