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Posted: 3/16/2004 11:20:34 AM EDT
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For those unfamiliar with Ed's Red, it is essentially equal parts of (hopefully top-grade) mineral spirits, acetone, kerosene and automatic tranny fluid. The recipe goes back to the dawn of the Internet. I use this stuff all the time. Because its cheap I use a LOT. I fill a can and let the bolt parts and carrier soak. I put a jar of it on the floor and use a patch to draw the fluid up the barrel (plugging the gas tube helps.) Its like a massive flush of the bore. I find that my barrels are easier to get very clean this way. Does anyone else use Ed's Red? Opinions? C_M |
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I use it. It's so popular that Brownells is now actually selling the stuff for people who don't want to mix it up themselves. 1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later. 1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1 1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS #64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent, (aka "Varsol") 1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1. (Optional up to 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, OK to substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store) |
| Ed's Red is cheap and fairly easy to make. However, a couple of things I do not like about it are that it does not remove copper fouling from the bore and it is fairly hazardous stuff to work with. Yes I know there are other copper removers out there and just about any cleaner is hazardous to handle. Make sure when using Ed's Red you have a well ventilated area and use latex or rubber gloves and minimize exposure to the skin. |
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Quoted: Ed's Red is cheap and fairly easy to make. However, a couple of things I do not like about it are that it does not remove copper fouling from the bore and it is fairly hazardous stuff to work with. Yes I know there are other copper removers out there and just about any cleaner is hazardous to handle. Make sure when using Ed's Red you have a well ventilated area and use latex or rubber gloves and minimize exposure to the skin. |
| Acetone is also hazardous. Along with dissolving the natural oils on you skin and in general drying the hell out of it; acetone can also cause severe liver damage after prolonged exposures. Again, if your not bathing in it every day you don't have to worry too much but I would use nitril gloves to handle it just to keep your hands from chafing or cracking. |
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A note on flammable/hazardous: Just use some common sense here. Most of the cleaning solvents out there are bad for you, Ed's Red is no different - take necessary precautions like with anything else. Personally, I use it in a parts cleaner so I have gloves on, and I don't go huffing the fumes if I can help it. In the ingredients I listed above, the optional lanolin is specifically for hand skin care to protect against skin drying. |
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Just made up my first jug the other day. I left out the lanolin and the acetone. The instructions say you can do that and it seems to work really well that way. Without the acetone you lose a lot of odor, flamability and it won't take the finish off stocks. I miss that Hoppe's smell though. |
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Quoted: Just made up my first jug the other day. I left out the lanolin and the acetone. The instructions say you can do that and it seems to work really well that way. Without the acetone you lose a lot of odor, flamability and it won't take the finish off stocks. I miss that Hoppe's smell though. I do the same thing and it works fine without the acetone. I usually soak parts in it over night. It is amazing the crud that seeps out. When done, I drain the stuff back into my jug straining it thru a paper towel. |
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Quoted: I use MEK instead of acetone. It's more expensive but doesn't evaporate as quickly and doesn't have quite as much of a strong smell. This is not good. MEK's are much more harmful and it takes lower doses than acetone to produce harmful effects. I would not recommend using MEK without a respirator for any concentration more than 250ppm. |
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MEK isn't as bad as you guys are saying. I agree that you have to use it with good ventilation, same for acetone. See the excerpt from a clinical study below that concludes MEK doesn't cause cancer. It isn't a mild chemical but not as bad as you both are saying IMHO. _"_II.A.4. Supporting Data for Carcinogenicity MEK has not exhibited mutagenic activity in a number of conventional short-term test systems. In vitro tests showed that MEK was not genotoxic in the Salmonella (Ames) assay (with or without metabolic activation), the L5178/TK+/- mouse lymphoma assay, and the BALB/3T3 cell transformation assay, and did not induce unscheduled DNA synthesis in rat primary hepatocytes, chromosome aberrations, or sister chromatic exchange (Florin et al., 1980; Douglas et al., 1980; O'Donoghue et al., 1988; NTP, undated; Zeiger et al., 1992). No induction of micronuclei was found in the erythrocytes of mice (O'Donoghue et al., 1988) or hamsters (WHO, 1992) after intraperitoneal injection with MEK. The only evidence of mutagenicity was mitotic chromosome loss at a high concentration in a study on aneuploidy in the diploid D61, M strain of the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Zimmermann et al., 1985); the relevance of this positive result to humans is unknown. In general, studies of MEK yielded little or no evidence of mutagenicity. SAR analysis suggests that MEK is unlikely to be carcinogenic based on the absence of any structural alerts indicative of carcinogenic potential (Woo et al., 2002)." |
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RDak, it's not cancer I am worried about, it's the damage to the CNS. I have a friend that did not use the proper catridge/filter in his respirator while using MEK's during refinishing work. He now has permanent headaches so bad it leaves him crippled in bed on some days, they won't go away, and the pain is terrible. I know others who have suffered as well. Acetone does not damage you in the same way, and if you look at the reports, it takes much lower concentrations of MEKs to do damage as opposed to Acetone. It's bad stuff, quite a bit worse than acetone, cancer or no (to tell the truth, I hadn't even considered the cancer aspect at all, just the CNS damage). Safety must be considered when using either product, just more so with MEK. However, I do agree with you in the fact that MEK is a good product for it's abilities. What are the main health hazards associated with breathing in methyl ethyl ketone? Brief (3-5 minute) exposures to methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) vapours produced slight nose and throat irritation at [b]100[/b] ppm and definite nose and throat irritation at 350 ppm in approximately 10 people. 143 volunteers exposed to 200 ppm for 4 hours reported throat irritation, unpleasant odour, nausea, and headache (in order of frequency reported). [b]Higher exposures are expected to cause central nervous system depression with symptoms such as headache, nausea, dizziness, drowsiness, and confusion. Extremely high concentrations may cause loss of consciousness and possibly death.[/b] What are the main health hazards associated with breathing in acetone? In one study, volunteers exposed to concentrations up to [b]500[/b] ppm reported no harmful effects. In other studies, concentrations of approximately 300-500 were reported to cause slight irritation of the nose and throat. Exposure to 250 ppm for 4 hours has caused mild effects on performance in some behavioural tests (auditory tone discrimination and a mood test). As concentrations approach 1000 ppm, noticeable irritation has occurred and some people have reported headaches, light-headedness and tiredness. Inhalation of concentrations higher than 2000 ppm can cause dizziness, a feeling of drunkenness, drowsiness, nausea and vomiting. Unconsciousness may result if exposure is extremely high (greater than [b]10000[/b] ppm). Intolerable nose and throat irritation would also occur at these concentrations. Even higher concentrations can cause collapse, coma and death. Tolerance to the effects of acetone can develop. Tolerance means that, with repeated exposures, higher concentrations are required to produce symptoms which had previously been observed at lower concentrations. Note that harmfull effects start at 100ppm for MEK vs more than 500ppm for acetone. Note that MEK causes CNS damage. Note how high a dose one can tolerate of acetone. Doses above 200ppm of MEK are serious vs 2000ppm of Acetone. None of this even addresses the cancer issue, I am just pointing out the immediate effects and CNS damage. One can take 10 times more Acetone, more if a tolerance is built up unlike MEK, and not suffer the kind of CNS damage that MEK causes. I would rather just have headaches and unconsiousness with acetone than permanent brain fry from MEK. Of course none of this matters if one takes the necessary safety precautions. [:)] |
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