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Posted: 9/17/2003 4:57:03 PM EDT
believe it or not, i really need to know...

tia...
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:11:59 PM EDT
FP-10's freezing temp. is -65, or at least that's what they say. It may be a smart idea to use a dry lube for colder temps. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:42:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 8:33:24 PM EDT by JTinIN]
For limited useage in northern Michigan we typically ran nearly* dry with a small amount of dry lube (graphite or molly in the old days and now a little Rem Dry lube. Then again a half dozen rounds fired would typically be a couple years shooting (clean and re-lube each year). Regards John [green] * Edited to add: Nearly dry is nominally the same as using kerosene for lube, as one last minute option in the Norther Michigan UP Deer Camp was using Hoppies #9 Bore solvent to clean the action (this was in the pre-spray cleaner days). In the old days (and maybe still today) Hoppies #9 contained kerosene and this was always assumed to be the film remaining after using Hoppies #9 bore solvent.[/green]
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 6:56:26 PM EDT
Slip 2000 has been used in Alaska, Canada and Arctic for the last three years at a -40 with out any trouble. The specs say that it goes down to -110F Sure would not want to be out in that kinda cold weather. Think you would have to worry about more then frozen gun parts. Crisco
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 1:05:38 AM EDT
Keep in mind that the freezing temperature of the lubricant isn’t the whole issue. Even if a lubricant isn’t frozen, it can become sluggish to the point where it prevents the weapon from reliably firing and/or cycling. If you can get it, I’d think the military’s LAW (lubricating oil, Arctic weapons) would be the way to go. It supposed to be good down to –35 degrees F.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:26:12 AM EDT
Eezox's freezing point is -95F. Doesn't necessarily mean it'll perform well at -30F, but it's good stuff and probably worth a try.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 9:48:27 AM EDT
You should be able to get by with no lube at that temp. Most lubes attract moisture in some form. Even more so when the temperature drops below freezing. This then translates into a possible frozen action or water freezing in certain points of mechanical reciprocation or alignment. Neither great prospects. If your weapon needs lubrication to function then you have worn parts or out of spec parts. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The AR15/ M16 were not designed from the start to need a lube. Its there to prolong weapon life span not enhance reliability. I used to be a big fan of hitech lubes. Still am to a certain extent. If you plan on going out into the temps you state and live out side then go for a light lube but if you are going to go from inside a warm building to the cold and repeat that several times a day. Go with no lube if at all possible. Condensation is going to form on your weapon and a lube can be its hiding ground and it will build up thru out the day. But if your weapon will function dry, keep it that way in the conditions you expect.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 2:22:04 PM EDT
ok - thanks for the inputs guys. now what do you think about dry graphite? Kano labs makes a product that is spray on liquid graphite and the carrier evaporates within a couple of minutes and leaves a dry film of graphite on the part/bolt, etc. i use it on a 9mm drum magazine for my m-16 and it really works well. do you think it would work at 30 below for an upcoming winter hunting trip?
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 5:48:20 PM EDT
My understanding is that graphite conducts electricity. Thus, putting it on a weapon such as an AR with two dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum) creates a battery, which ultimately results in corrosion. You might want to look at a dry lubricant such as Sentry Tuf-Glide or Bore Tech Tef-Dri.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 10:55:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 10:56:55 PM EDT by wyv3rn]
I'm guessing that the environment you will be in will have a good amount of moisture. I don't know many places at -30F that don't have excessive moisture. Personally, I wouldn't run a dry rifle because I'd be afraid of corrosion. I'd atleast give a good lube a try, preferably one that can stop corrosion. Eezox is an excellent corrosion inhibitor.. about the best out there and a freezing point of -95F is promising. After the cleaning agent evaporates, you're left with dry-to-the-touch lubrication and protection. I have some Bore-Tech Tef-Dri and personally I think it's garbage. It just created a film which felt like it had more resistance than the original metal. Even better, the film rubbed off with strong friction and bunched up/collected in the crevices. Whatever you choose, PLEASE give us a ring and let us know how it goes. We all love to learn what things work in adverse environments. Oh, and 199 is right about graphite, keep it off your rifles.
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 5:56:08 PM EDT
Listen to JohnM. He is right on. I'll have to agree with the others, NO graphite!
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 8:33:25 PM EDT
I am in the Army, and yes we do use LAW in low temperatures, but, normally not easy to get through the Army supply system. No one ever normally needs it here in CONUS. However, we did use graphite before. Particulary in the Middle East. The dust is horrible there and the oil quickly turns to mud...so, we used graphite for Operation Iraqi Freedom. I worked ok. Not to good on the M249 or the M240's, but it worked well on the M16A4 and the M9 pistol. I actually had a lot of staying power. Matter of fact, we are still trying to get that crap off now that we are back stateside...and it's been a couple of months... And as a joke: Try using Antifreeze...lol
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 9:40:28 PM EDT
With non-ARs (rifles and shotguns and handguns), I've always put on a light coat of oil, and then wiped off as much as I could. Never had a problem, even in Minnesota winters (though I haven't tried -35 F.). Probably do the same with my AR, but I haven't tried it yet. But definately avoid bringing it inside and outside and inside--just leave it outside and cold. The changes in temperature are harder on the gun than the cold temperature itself.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 10:05:02 PM EDT
Burnsome, I have prepped several customers bolt rifles for Musk ox trips in the arctic. The first time I asked for the feedback of a Inuit Marine buddy. He told me that he normally just runs the bolt rifle dry,or with a bit of 2 cycle fuel if he's bringing the rifle in and out of a warmer environ.He sometimes sleeps on the ice in bear country....he's NUTS! He also told me flat out that the guys in his AK guard unit were using the sentry solutions Tuff glide on their 16's. OK,so now I was conflicted and got ahold of a Guy I knew that had worked the Arctic circle as a Canuck Fish&wildlife officer. He told me that Graphite holds moisture and freezes.Moly is Hydroscopic and draws moisture and freezes,and sentry solutions Tuff glide is wax based and gets silly in the extreme cold. He used a dusting of motor mica on his 16. I then set up the customers rifle as dry as a bone.Told him to keep it outside. He came back and reported no issues. Same with the other 2. Possibly the Teflon powder I have seen on the market might be of help,I dunno. It only gets down to about 20 below once in a while here,and my freezer wont go that low to test. As it is,there seems to be conflicting reports other than the constant of "Dry". Good luck with it! S-28
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 7:01:01 PM EDT
Your question prompted me to do some research. The Canadian police have approved Eezox, FP-10 (not the old shooter's choice recipie) and Mil-comm TW-25B for Arctic cold operations. They tested many lubricants at -40F and those 3 came out on top. Supposedly they do not freeze up and lube very well, the test results are at: [url]http://www.fp10.com/Canadian%20Testing/TR-01-97.pdf[/url] Personally I wouldn't run a dry rifle for fear of corrosion (cold environments are usually moist) and fear of metal-to-metal lockups. Eezox is the best of those for corrosion inhibition.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 2:29:52 PM EDT
The Finns used a light coating of kerosene during wartime.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 7:49:59 PM EDT
G-96 is the best readily obtainable substitute for LAW and it works really well in the cold.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 8:02:42 PM EDT
At 30 below I'm calling time out and going inside.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 7:59:17 AM EDT
Somewhere I have heard air conditioner oil works well in extreme cold, but I never tried it myself.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 6:19:18 PM EDT
I never heard that about Graphite. We (the CF) use it as a low temp lube and I have never had an issue with it (since 1987...) We leave our wpns outside when we go in at LOW temps - so we dont have the condensing issues that others may have.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:16:49 PM EDT
Kevin, What form/brand are your guys using? The powdered stuff or in some sort of evaporative carrier like Dri-slide? I would imagine Ian would have been bringing the rifle into the shelter with him,so that might be his reasoning. Thanks. S-28
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:41:07 PM EDT
K-Y Jelly, of course you'll have to warm it up a bit before application. [peep]
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 10:07:43 AM EDT
S28 Powdered - it comes in a small 2x2 brown envelope (at least at my level...) I would suggest that the carbon from firign while dry would likely act as a lube as well (? - I am not an engineer or chemist). As far as non-mil ops in cold weather I woudl keep it dry and then lube and clean and re-dry when moving from Cold -> Warm and back.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 2:46:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2003 2:48:07 AM EDT by PanzerBoy]
199 said:
My understanding is that graphite conducts electricity. Thus, putting it on a weapon such as an AR with two dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum) creates a battery, which ultimately results in corrosion.
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Your understanding is correct, however, the conclusion you draw, while partially correct, must be clarified. The process is called [i]galvanic corrosion[/i] and as it relates to graphite and aluminum, there has been commentary on it [url=http://www.finishing.com/82/53.html]here.[/url] Please note especially (Quote from the linked thread):
Apr 17, 2001 While the anodizing does indeed act as a good barrier, in the long term the absence of corrosion would depend on the absence of corrosive ions. Graphite is not corrosive in itself towards aluminum, but in the presence of chloride ions (such as from sea-water or marine atmosphere) it can cause galvanic (bimetallic) corrosion to occur. The anodizing will however prevent the chloride ions from reaching the metal substrate for a long time - perhaps several years. So there should be no concern with moisture alone, but if chloride is present, there might be long-term concern. John E. Leitch Hulett Aluminium - Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
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As far as Galvanic Corrosion, I think he said it better than I could. Panz [bounce] [edited to make URL Link hot]
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