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Posted: 8/3/2003 11:45:04 AM EDT
I took my Bushmaster A2 Shorty out to the range today for the first time.

I got home and started cleaning it, but I can not get the barrel clean. I used the standard Hoppes Powder solvent, but the patches keep coming out dirty. I've tried scrubbing, I've used a Bore Snake..but same results.

Do you guys have any tricks that I could use to get this barrel cleaned out or am I being to anal about getting it spotless?

Thanks

Kev
Link Posted: 8/3/2003 6:56:25 PM EDT
I find it next to impossible to get a bore completely clean. I suspect the problem is carbon embedded in the pores of the metal. I generally scrub the bore with a solvent and a bronze bristle brush maybe a one or two dozen times, occasional switching to a dry patch to soak up the old solvent. This is followed by a few solvent ladened patches and then by dry patches. At some point the dry patches start coming out pretty clean. I then run an oily patch and then one or two dry patches through the bore. However, the dry patches generally come out a little dirty. And then I just stop. It seems to me that you can ultimately get fairly clean patches after you stop scrubbing the bore and stop using fluids. However, if you later run a bore brush or a fluid through the bore, then you get dirty patches again.
Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:06:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2003 7:09:16 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By str86diesel: I used the standard Hoppes Powder solvent, but the patches keep coming out dirty. I've tried scrubbing, I've used a Bore Snake..but same results.
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Why? Why? WHY??? Why would you use Hoppes?? Does your manual call for Hoppes? NO. It calls for CLP. Bore Snakes are decent for a quick field clean, but don't do a through job. Get an [url=www.otisgun.com]Otis[/url] kit and FOLLOW THE MANUAL. 15 minutes to clean it. Don't expect to pull clean patches, you won't. Nature of the beast. 1,000 patches and you'll still won't get pure white. These are combat weapons. I gotta stop coming to this forum. This is too frustrating. 90% of the newbies with malfunctioning guns that attend our Maryland AR15 shooters are because THEY DIDN'T FOLLOW THE MANUAL. They try grease, they try Hoppes, they try whatever someone tells them, or whatever they "feel" would work right. Folks - the military spend a lot of time and money getting this system working right - remember the GI's that died in Vietnam from malfunctioning M16's?? Yep. Well, the current manual is designed to prevent that. Stray off the Reservation at your own risk.
Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:39:49 PM EDT
[:D] Want some more coffee?
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By str86diesel: I used the standard Hoppes Powder solvent, but the patches keep coming out dirty. I've tried scrubbing, I've used a Bore Snake..but same results.
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Why? Why? WHY??? Why would you use Hoppes?? Does your manual call for Hoppes? NO. It calls for CLP. Bore Snakes are decent for a quick field clean, but don't do a through job. Get an [url=www.otisgun.com]Otis[/url] kit and FOLLOW THE MANUAL. 15 minutes to clean it. Don't expect to pull clean patches, you won't. Nature of the beast. 1,000 patches and you'll still won't get pure white. These are combat weapons. I gotta stop coming to this forum. This is too frustrating. 90% of the newbies with malfunctioning guns that attend our Maryland AR15 shooters are because THEY DIDN'T FOLLOW THE MANUAL. They try grease, they try Hoppes, they try whatever someone tells them, or whatever they "feel" would work right. Folks - the military spend a lot of time and money getting this system working right - remember the GI's that died in Vietnam from malfunctioning M16's?? Yep. Well, the current manual is designed to prevent that. Stray off the Reservation at your own risk.
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Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:49:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2003 7:53:59 PM EDT by jason_h]
Whoa there fight4yourrights, it will be alright, nothing to get an ulcer over. I think the AR15 tent is big enough to allow people to clean there weapon as they see fit. CLP will work, but anybody can tell you it isn't the best powder solvent, at least not when compared to Hoppes. I still use No.9 for cleaning the bore and chamber and CLP to clean everything else. I wouldn't recommended using copper solvent regularly in a chrome-lined bore, but standard nitro solvent should work fine without causing any harm. Actually, I don't think there is any consensus that copper solvent with ammonia will hurt the chrome-lining either, but I guess I tend to err on the side of caution and use it sparingly. As for the orginial question, the reason .22 caliber bores are so hard to get clean is that you can not fit a very large patch in one to remove the fouling. As a result, you have to use more patches. When I got my first AR15, it used to take forever to clean the bore with patches. Then I discovered the wonders of jags and cut my cleaning time down drastically. Basically my cleaning method is to wet the bore with one patch soaked with solvent, let sit a bit, brush good with a bronze brush, push another wet patch with solvent through and then use the jag. I put two patches on the front of the jag to get a real tight fit in the bore and push them through removing the patches once they come out the muzzle. This one pass of the jag will push the majority of the solvent and fouling out the end of the bore. I will then follow up with one more pass with the jag. At this point, you can call it good, but if you are really anal, you can go through the whole process again. Due to the high ratio of bore surface area to patch surface area, it will be almost impossible to get the bore perfectly clean and keep your sanity. Just get it clean enough that when you shine a light through, there are no dark spots on the rifleing. It should be noted that if you do decide to use the bore brush again, you will probably add more fouling to the bore, since the bore brush will retain some of the dirty solvent.
Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:53:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2003 7:55:54 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
str86diesel - 1st time out with this gun. I'll [i]ass [/i]ume it's a new gun. HOW MANY ROUNDS DID YOU FIRE? Bushmaster's recommended procedure: - clean the gun when new - fire 400 rounds WITHOUT cleaning - clean and lube PER the manual So, did you run at least 400 rounds through it? If not, you just prolonged the break-in period.
Link Posted: 8/4/2003 10:05:59 PM EDT
Actually, Bushmaster recommends the use of a solvent such as Hoppes – see: [url]www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=182&catid=101[/url] Also, as best as I can tell, they no longer make the recommendation to not clean an AR for the first 400 rounds. FWIW, Bushmaster also states that ammonia (or at least the ammonia in Sweets) won’t damage a chrome lined bore. See: [url]www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=185&catid=101[/url]
Link Posted: 8/5/2003 1:27:13 AM EDT
Folks - the military spend a lot of time and money getting this system working right - remember the GI's that died in Vietnam from malfunctioning M16's?? Yep. Well, the current manual is designed to prevent that.
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Had nothing to do with crappy powder or the lack of cleaning kits in the first place, right? But that's waaaaaaaaaay of subject and I really do agree. In the military, every piece of equipment, from the canteen to the F-16, has an operator's manual in an attempt to protect the user from screwing up the equipment. As pointed out, Bushmaster recommends Hoppe's #9. My assertion to 199 (and the rest of you neophyte heathens [;)]) is to give Blue Wonder a try. Ken, the company's CEO, whom I met through Gunbroker's boards sent me several samples to try out as I am an Armorer in a Nat'l Guard Infantry Company. LET ME SAY THIS LOUD AND CLEAR[:)] THIS STUFF ROCKS!!!!!!!! I used this stuff, as per the directions, in aall of my personal firearms, but I was most impressed when I used it in the Bbl of an M-240B machine gun that had fired over 1,400 rounds of dirty, nasty, filthy, sticky, gummy, gooey blank ammunition. It looked like a sewer pipe. Inside of 20 minutes, with only 5 minutes of actual work, Blue Wonder had this barrel looking like it did when I took it out of the box last November. I was and am sold. Register with them to be able to access their online store, and they will send along a free 1oz sample tube....tell 'em I sent ya!!!! [url]http://www.bluewonder.us/[/url] Enjoy! Matt45
Link Posted: 8/5/2003 4:38:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 199: Bushmaster Also, as best as I can tell, they no longer make the recommendation to not clean an AR for the first 400 rounds.
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[url=http://www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=167&catid=100]What is the proper "break-in" procedure for a chrome lined AR barrel? [/url]
After firing a couple hundred rounds, the chrome lining will "polish out" from its light, flat gray, factory-new look to a brightly reflective, polished appearance. During this break-in period, excessive cleaning with solvent or brush should be avoided as that will only prolong the time (and number of rounds) it takes to achieve the final "bullet polishing" of the barrel.
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Link Posted: 8/5/2003 5:57:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2003 5:59:30 AM EDT by str86diesel]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: str86diesel - HOW MANY ROUNDS DID YOU FIRE? Bushmaster's recommended procedure: - clean the gun when new - fire 400 rounds WITHOUT cleaning - clean and lube PER the manual So, did you run at least 400 rounds through it? If not, you just prolonged the break-in period.
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When I called bushmaster before I bought this rifle, I questioned the heck out of them. Especially on stuff like cleaning and breaking in the barrel. Bushmaster specifically told me that I should use Hoppes which is why I did so. Also as far as break in, they told me that it will take a couple of hundred rounds to smooth out the barrel, but this did not have to happen all in one day. They said that I can go fire 50 rounds today...50 tomorrow etc. and not to worry about rushing the break in of the barrel. So when I went out, I put about 60 rounds through it. What I don't understand is, if barrel break in is "SO" important. Why does everyone have their own method. Shouldn't there be a basic method for everyone to follow? I listened to what the manufature said and am not too worried about it I guess. If all esle fails, I can easily go buy a new barrel down the road right? Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate the education that you are all giving me. Kev
Link Posted: 8/5/2003 7:01:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By str86diesel: Bushmaster specifically told me that I should use Hoppes which is why I did so.
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Okay, I surrender. Bushie has to warranty the rifle, if they don't want to follow the manual they provide, that's their choice.
Link Posted: 8/5/2003 10:57:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By str86diesel: … What I don't understand is, if barrel break in is "SO" important. Why does everyone have their own method. Shouldn't there be a basic method for everyone to follow? …
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Arguing barrel break-in is like arguing religion, there are all sorts of views and no one will concede an inch to anyone who disagrees with them!! The idea behind a break-in procedure is that it MAY make the rifle a little more accurate and/or easier to clean. We’re talking about very small amounts here, which is a major reason for the arguments. The bottom line (IMHO) is that barrels will naturally break-in over time anyway, assuming (in my view at least) that they are thoroughly cleaned every once and a while. I haven’t a clue why Bushmaster opposes a thorough cleaning for the first couple of hundred rounds, as noted by [b]fight4yourrights[/b], above, but maybe I just need to make my own phone call to them. Anyway, you will NOT damage a barrel by failing to go through a specific break-in procedure. Rather, you will just have to wait a little longer for the supposed benefits (if any) to kick in.
Originally Posted By Matt45: ... My assertion to 199 (and the rest of you neophyte heathens [;)]) is to give Blue Wonder a try.
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!! Some dude gave me a tube at the last SHOT Show, but I haven’t even looked at it yet (hey! – I’ve been busy!![:D]). However, a couple of mouths ago someone on another forum (maybe hkpro.com) was railing about how he had applied it to a Beretta shotgun and how the firearm had subsequently rusted. He said he had contacted the company and they told him that he had applied it incorrectly. My very vague recollection is that maybe the metal surfaces needed to be immediately lubed after being treated. I don’t recall any other details and this guy could have been totally wrong anyway. FWIW
Link Posted: 8/5/2003 3:30:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By str86diesel: What I don't understand is, if barrel break in is "SO" important.
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It generally isn't, unless you're a match shooter trying to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the barrel. Break in on your chrome bore (i.e. smoothing it out) only makes it easier to clean. Right now, your bore is still rough and will trap fouling, gilding, etc. BTW, when you say "dirty", do you mean light gray in color? That's normal. You'll never get one out as clean as Mom's washday whites.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 9:50:07 AM EDT
I like to use shooters choice bore cleaner. I soak a patch, and let it sit in the barrel while I clean the rest of the rifle.A few strokes with a brush, a few clean patches, and she's clean.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 11:14:40 PM EDT
199- My gut reaction is that whoever claimed that is a Hoppes sales guy trying to cast rumors. Either that or he did not understand that the product is a cleaner, not something trying to masquerade as a 3 in 1 deal. Personally, I LOATHE CLP. I was active duty for 8 years in the Infantry, and have been in manuver squads/Bradleys/heavy weapons and am currently an Armorer in the 'Guard. I still hate the stuff. It is NOT a good "cleaner", nor a good "protectant". It does fine as a lube, except when the temp varies from between 90/15 degrees F. Then it's back to worthless.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 11:17:51 PM EDT
BTW, when you say "dirty", do you mean light gray in color? That's normal. You'll never get one out as clean as Mom's washday whites.
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I have. I'm trying to tell you guys. Blue Wonder. Register on their website, and get a free tube, you'll be as hooked as I am.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 11:35:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matt45: 199- My gut reaction is that whoever claimed that is a Hoppes sales guy trying to cast rumors. Either that or he did not understand that the product is a cleaner, not something trying to masquerade as a 3 in 1 deal....
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While your first suggestion could be accurate [:D], I suspect you actually hit the nail on the head with your second suggestion!! While wandering around the Blue Wonder website, I found a statement that it’s so effective as a cleaner that it removes all traces of oil. Thus the metal should be immediately re-oiled. Unfortunately, the apparent extreme importance of this isn’t clearly stated in the written instructions on the tube! I’m gonna have to give this stuff a try!! Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/8/2003 1:21:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2003 9:44:41 AM EDT by brasspile]
Otis pullthrough. First swipe with Mpro Then "Butch's Bore Cleaner" 3 times 2 swipes with Mpro Butch's Bore clean until there is no blue Mpro - 3 swipes one more Butch's if any blue, run 2 more Mpro - 1 swipe Butch's 1 sipe - should be no green/blue by now Mpro - 1 swipe Mpro oil - 1 swipe Before firing - 1 swipe of dry patch. You are now down to "Clean Barrel" Reason for alternation of solvents: When fired, a bullet leaves layer of copper in bore, and carbon and powder from burning gases cover this layer. Repeat many times, and you have a lamination of copper and carbon. I am talking about hard carbon, not powder fouling (the kind of carbon that fills in the bolt gas area). Removing a layer of carbon will reveal a fresh layer of copper. I have personally verified this on guns that have only been cleaned with copper solvent. They would look 'squeaky' clean, until good carbon solvent was used, at which time I got a black patch. Running copper solvent again gave me a colored patch again. So I used the steps above. Once you have it _clean_, firelapping will smooth out imperfections, and make cleaning quicker. Always use pullthough with _very_ tight patch to clean (OTIS kit allows a much tighter patch than any push through rod), a loose, well saturated patch to apply solvent (liberally). Allow all solvents some time (few minutes) to work. Don't use a brush unless your bore is _severely_ fouled (hasn't been fully cleaned in thousands of rounds). The brushes give false copper readings on patches, but do clean aggressively, a properly cleaned and fire-lapped bbl will not need any brushing. If you must use a brush, never use a steel "tornado" brush, that will kill your barrel. A good copper solvent + time combined with good carbon solvent + time will clean bbl (eventually, after toggling between the two for a few hours the first time). This will work great on fire-lapped bore, and cleaning it gets easier every time (2 patches of each for me now, after 500rds, letting each solvent 'sit' for about 3-5 minutes). Cleaning gets much easier/faster with pure carbon solvent (Mpro7), alternated with pure copper solvent (Butch's Bore Shine). Mpro7 is very good at removing carbon, I have tried every other cleaner, and this one is about the best (next to brake cleaner...). It will do nothing for copper. Butch's Bore Shine is excellent for removing copper fouling, and some carbon. I have tried many, many, many different brands, and this is what I have come with to keep a match rifle shooting great, with minimal 'effort' on bore. Always run oiled path down bore when finished. Remember - The barrel isn't the only thing that needs cleaning. Bolt carrier, inside of upper receiver (due to gas feed), and lugs should all be cleaned with brush and carbon solvent. If others have better carbon solvent than Mpro7, let me know! The Mpro7 oil is awesome, too. On CLP: It doesn't cut it for me, simply because I cannot find a good single solvent, let alone a good solvent that also is a lubricant and rust preventative. CLP will remove some carbon, and most powder fouling, but won't touch copper fouling. CLP is also ok as a lubricant, and excellent at corrosion protection. So for only having one thing, and not wanting a squeaky clean machine, that would be the one thing to have. --Edited because my 5 am post didn't really make sense when I read it this morning...
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 8:07:09 PM EDT
199- I traded e-mails with Ken Gibbs at Novum Solutions, here's what he said about the gentleman mistake/misunderstanding-
The guy that ruined his barrels did it on a couple of Glocks and the post was on the Glock Talk forum. He put the gun cleaner in the bore and let it sit a while. Then, he used oiled patches to try and remove the gel. Well, what he did was leave a combination of our gun cleaner and oil mixed together sitting the barrels for several months! This WILL severely ruin the barrels as our cleaner will completely emulsify oil – and the resulting mixture will cause rust....After using the cleaner you MUST get it out with “DRY” patches and “AFTER” that you must apply oil.
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Link Posted: 8/12/2003 9:00:41 AM EDT
On the Blue Wonder gel, looks like great stuff, but did you see the demo video? OUCH!! He was cleaning a T/C Encore. He had a brush on and was just RAMMING it in and out of the barrel!! On top of that, the wasn't even holding the cleaning rod's handle, just grabed it by the rod. It kinda' reminded me of that Billy Mayes guy for Oxy Clean, ya' know how he goes all fast and crazy? This guy was doing that to a rifle!! AHHHH, it hurts me so. [pissed]
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:41:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2003 8:03:20 PM EDT by James_Gang]
Originally Posted By str86diesel: I took my Bushmaster A2 Shorty out to the range today for the first time. I got home and started cleaning it, but I can not get the barrel clean. I used the standard Hoppes Powder solvent, but the patches keep coming out dirty. I've tried scrubbing, I've used a Bore Snake..but same results. Do you guys have any tricks that I could use to get this barrel cleaned out or am I being to anal about getting it spotless? Thanks Kev
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--------- Yes, you are wasting your time trying to get it spotless. In fact you may do more harm than good. A barrel will continue to leech carbon for days after firing. You are better off cleaning it lightly on 2 or 3 consecutive days if you can't stand the thought of a speck of carbon on a patch. Personally, I run a patch with a couple of drops of solvent enough to wet the bore, then wait 10 minutes of so and run a bore brush down the bore a couple of times, patch it out and then lube lightly, followed by a dry patch. That's it. And is all that's necessary for a chrome plated bore. Here's a good tutorial on proper maintenance for AR-15 type rifles. [url]http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote29.htm[/url]
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