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Posted: 3/27/2012 5:31:12 AM EDT
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My PD is changing over to all identical Colt AR's. The rifles are assigned to a car, which is used by several officers. The past way of doig things was to have a couple of firearms instructors zero the rifles and then average those two zeros. Some rifles were done by officers A and B, some by A and C, and otheres by D and E, so there was a wide variety of zeros.
Many moons ago, I was told by my caring drill sgt. that mechanical zero on all M-16's (Similar models) can be set to mechanical zero, then you dial in your personal zero (Which we all had to memorize) and you should be pretty close. My proposal to the pd is that all rifles are set to mechanical zero, so in theory they all shoot the same. Is if an officer is high right with this rifle, he should be high and right with all of the rifles. I am seeking opionons, please. I am our department armorer and have to make some kind of reccomendation. Optics, personally owned rifles, and sight changing at each shift change are not options, nor is the purchase of more rifles. Thanks in advance!!!! 
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Just my personal opinion. If you set mechanical zero for them strapped to a sled on a bench, yes. That way, as you said, if you shoot high and right with one you should shoot that way with all. Also my personal opinion, that is the dumbest way to arm a P.O. But I guess budgets are what they are.
[edit] What about personally owned optics? With quick release. |
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Mechanical Zero does not work as well as your Drill Sgt told you. The tolerances that build up can effect each persons zero. It will not be the same for each rifle/carbine. Since they are all Colt, and Colt makes them to a standard, most of them will be close to each other in terms of where the hit with the same shooter, but not the same. Does not seem this is much better than poke and hope. Sounds like your Department needs to join the 21st Century. |
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Reminds me of the time when a City Council member wanted to know why we could not just buy one rain suit for each car and share it. Only this will do a lot worse than just get you wet. If they won't budget enough for each officer to have his own weapon, then they should issue the weapons they have to the best shots until all weapons are issued. You might want to inform them of the civil liability issues from such shenanigans. Sorry, this just pisses me off. |
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My high power coach taught me to avoid mech zero on my rifle and purposely set up my first match rifle with the 200yd no wind zero about 8 clicks up from mech zero. I believe he made the necessary adjustments by dialing a few clicks up from mech zero and then adjusting the front sight post using the front sight tool. He then marked the drum and the carrying handle with some nail polish for a visual reference point.
He said the reason why its preferable to avoid mech zero was due to what he called "dead clicks" where the drum could be turned but the result on paper didn't match. Something to do with the pitch of the thread used in the rear sight. On my current rifle the last minute or so just before you hit mech zero feel strange and don't have the same tactile feel as the others. Hope this helps in some way. |
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Quoted: My high power coach taught me to avoid mech zero on my rifle and purposely set up my first match rifle with the 200yd no wind zero about 8 clicks up from mech zero. I believe he made the necessary adjustments by dialing a few clicks up from mech zero and then adjusting the front sight post using the front sight tool. He then marked the drum and the carrying handle with some nail polish for a visual reference point. He said the reason why its preferable to avoid mech zero was due to what he called "dead clicks" where the drum could be turned but the result on paper didn't match. Something to do with the pitch of the thread used in the rear sight. On my current rifle the last minute or so just before you hit mech zero feel strange and don't have the same tactile feel as the others. Hope this helps in some way. Are you confusing mechanical zero with a mechanical stop? Mechanical zero is where your sights or optics are in the center of their adjustment range. I.E if you scope has 100 clicks from one stop to the other on the elevation then 50 clicks is the mechanical zero for that scopes elevation. OP, Mechanical zero is rarely (read, never) actual zero, at least not at the yardage you want. Each rifle is going to have a different actual zero depending on many different factors, therefore mechanical zero on all your rifles will not produce the same POI with all rifles. One rifle may be low and left and the next may be high and right with both set at mechanical zero. You could start at mechanical zero as you said and dial in your own personal dope, but you would need to work out your dope every rifle and set it every time you were using that perticular rifle. At the range(s) a LEO would normally take a shot at it should be good to go. |
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No one said, "Welcome!.
Your administrators are idiots. You can't zero my rifle, and I can't yours. We can come close on elevation but that's it. That's why your DS had you memorize your settings. This also why some NM competitors have no reference #'s on the sights Each range is based on 0, the front sight is the constant. Optics will be the same. They come from the factory at mechanical 0 and them we adjust them to applied 0. Good luck.  
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Quoted:
My PD is changing over to all identical Colt AR's. The rifles are assigned to a car, which is used by several officers. The past way of doig things was to have a couple of firearms instructors zero the rifles and then average those two zeros. Some rifles were done by officers A and B, some by A and C, and otheres by D and E, so there was a wide variety of zeros. Many moons ago, I was told by my caring drill sgt. that mechanical zero on all M-16's (Similar models) can be set to mechanical zero, then you dial in your personal zero (Which we all had to memorize) and you should be pretty close. My proposal to the pd is that all rifles are set to mechanical zero, so in theory they all shoot the same. Is if an officer is high right with this rifle, he should be high and right with all of the rifles. I am seeking opionons, please. I am our department armorer and have to make some kind of reccomendation. Optics, personally owned rifles, and sight changing at each shift change are not options, nor is the purchase of more rifles. Thanks in advance!!!! This can be done, First off, you need to have all the rifles running the same ammo since the sights zero has to be based from such (read different ammo, and ammo lot will group differently out of the same rig). The armor will pick a set distance to zero the rifle in via the iron sights, and via slipping the barrels in the upper receiver, and adjusting the hood distance up off the base/ front sight height, can set all the rifle up for a dead center of hood mark to receiver, and windage set to 3 zero's for all the rifle to shoot withing a half inch of each other. From there, each officer can make the needed clicks off this center line for there own personal adjustments to zero out for them. The downside, a lot of work in regards to the armor having to set up all the rifle to this, and even periodically adjustments in needed as well. And regards to opti's, even harder since there is no natural zero point on most of them for the repeat back to fixed set point. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
My PD is changing over to all identical Colt AR's. The rifles are assigned to a car, which is used by several officers. The past way of doig things was to have a couple of firearms instructors zero the rifles and then average those two zeros. Some rifles were done by officers A and B, some by A and C, and otheres by D and E, so there was a wide variety of zeros. Many moons ago, I was told by my caring drill sgt. that mechanical zero on all M-16's (Similar models) can be set to mechanical zero, then you dial in your personal zero (Which we all had to memorize) and you should be pretty close. My proposal to the pd is that all rifles are set to mechanical zero, so in theory they all shoot the same. Is if an officer is high right with this rifle, he should be high and right with all of the rifles. I am seeking opionons, please. I am our department armorer and have to make some kind of reccomendation. Optics, personally owned rifles, and sight changing at each shift change are not options, nor is the purchase of more rifles. Thanks in advance!!!! This can be done, First off, you need to have all the rifles running the same ammo since the sights zero has to be based from such (read different ammo, and ammo lot will group differently out of the same rig). The armor will pick a set distance to zero the rifle in via the iron sights, and via slipping the barrels in the upper receiver, and adjusting the hood distance up off the base/ front sight height, can set all the rifle up for a dead center of hood mark to receiver, and windage set to 3 zero's for all the rifle to shoot withing a half inch of each other. From there, each officer can make the needed clicks off this center line for there own personal adjustments to zero out for them. The downside, a lot of work in regards to the armor having to set up all the rifle to this, and even periodically adjustments in needed as well. And regards to opti's, even harder since there is no natural zero point on most of them for the repeat back to fixed set point. HUH? |
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Mechanical zero just puts you in the middle of your available adjustment. Whether that corresponds to your bullet impact is stacked against so many variables in the manufacturing process that there is just no way around doing it the proper way.
At close range it would maybe be good enough to hit a man in COM but I wouldn't want to rely on it to make vital hits at much more than that distance. |
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Quoted: This last sentence is where all the trouble is. Your only option if you must stay within this requirement is that each man will need to work out the dope on each rifle for Kentucky windage.My PD is changing over to all identical Colt AR's. The rifles are assigned to a car, which is used by several officers. The past way of doig things was to have a couple of firearms instructors zero the rifles and then average those two zeros. Some rifles were done by officers A and B, some by A and C, and otheres by D and E, so there was a wide variety of zeros. Many moons ago, I was told by my caring drill sgt. that mechanical zero on all M-16's (Similar models) can be set to mechanical zero, then you dial in your personal zero (Which we all had to memorize) and you should be pretty close. My proposal to the pd is that all rifles are set to mechanical zero, so in theory they all shoot the same. Is if an officer is high right with this rifle, he should be high and right with all of the rifles. I am seeking opionons, please. I am our department armorer and have to make some kind of reccomendation. Optics, personally owned rifles, and sight changing at each shift change are not options, nor is the purchase of more rifles. Thanks in advance!!!! Realistically speaking, at 50-75 yards, which should be the longest shot an officer should need to take(non-sniper type role), a good zero on the rifles, training and regular/often range time for the officers should be just fine. |
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