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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bullet tumble (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 4/20/2009 3:53:37 PM EDT
Just put my EBR together and got to fire it today. I was more worried about feed problems than anything else because when I manually fed it rounds there was a failure to feed almost every third time. I didn't do a lot of rounds this way because I was afraid of making a mistake and firing a round. But at the range today I was mildly surprised when it fed all rounds (30) without a failure! I know it's nowhere near enough rounds. However this is what the target looked like at 25 yds. . .  Frak what could be wrong? Any suggestions? That's why I quit firing after 30 rounds no sense wasting ammo.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3460398117_56d4fdd5dc.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3592/3460285055_367302c0e9.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3650/3460285343_7cc16fb850.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3499/3460285995_80e81db5a6.jpg?v=0 Here are the particulars. I was shooting PMC Bronze .223 Remington 55 grs. FMJ-BT 01) CMMG stripped lower 02) RRA LPK sans pistol grip 03) Used DMPS 5.56, 14.5 in., 1/9 Upper. sans Firing Pin, Firing Pin retainer pin, Cam Pin and Charging handle. Non "F" stamped front sight 04) Matech rear BUIS 05) Hogue monogrip 06) Generic 6 position butt stock 07) BravoCompanyUSA Cam Pin and Firing Pin and BCM Charging Handle 08) Brownells DPMS Panther firing pin 09) Prince 50 Bullet Button Gen 2 10) Yankee Hills Manf. Phantom Flash Suppressor 5C1 Is it yikes time or will my friendly neighborhood gunsmith be able to fix me up? I paid $500 bucks for the upper. 8^( Wildkow |
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Positive on the upper as “DPMS 5.56 1/9” is stamped on the underside of the barrel.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3461312158_3ca69cbcb5.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3503/3461311974_df830f7779.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3614/3461311696_cfe1f250a3.jpg?v=0 Shot out! Frak they told me it only had a 1000-2000 rounds through it! 
Damn, listened to the kid voice inside my head instead of the small voice that said hmmmmm, buying "as is" in used condition may not be a wise move. 
Wildkow |
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Frak it I'm taking it in. . . This is what I get for trying to hurry and get a EBR before the Libbies outlaw them and what I get for trying to spend the least amount of money instead of just buying new quality parts from the git go.
1) The quicker I go the behinder I get. 2) Going cheap costs more. 3) EBR are very very addictive, but fun as hell! Even though shooting was disappointing today I had a blast.  By the way in the OP the second pic is a group of ten rounds rapid fire, I was testing the feed. Not a bad group for rapid fire tumbling bullets eh? 
Wildkow |
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It's at the gunsmith now and hopefully he'll have a chance to look at it today. What's a shot out barrel look like? I looked in mine and it looked ok. Someone at the gun store thought it could be the crown. I really really really don't want to buy a new barrel for this.
Wildkow |
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Group, with the bullet tumbling as bad as that, we are beyond just bullet strikes to the FS.
Me thinks that the bore is not 5.56,and something a tad larger (read even the blow out brass at the neck looks to be a bit bigger than a 223 chamber should produce. In the positive note, if you do manage to hit something, you wont have to worry about over penetration; it will just leave one hell of a welt!!!! |
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Quoted: Group, with the bullet tumbling as bad as that, we are beyond just bullet strikes to the FS. Me thinks that the bore is not 5.56,and something a tad larger (read even the blow out brass at the neck looks to be a bit bigger than a 223 chamber should produce. In the positive note, if you do manage to hit something, you wont have to worry about over penetration; it will just leave one hell of a welt!!!! I noticed that too... the brass looks funny. It is exceptionally dirty. I don't know what it would be that would cause it to flare out only that much, though... maybe 6.8SPC? Does DPMS even offer 6.8SPC? Did you buy a complete upper, or just a barrel? If it is an upper, can you post pictures of the interior parts, especially the bolt and bolt carrier? This could allow us to get a good idea of actual round count, based on wear. Also, we can see if it is an M16 BCG... which would open up the possibility it has been abused on full auto. The 4140 steel DPMS uses for barrels isn't designed for full auto mag dumps.... |
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Quoted: Quoted: This.I have never seen a target that every round went 90 degrees. Or those are 79gr and not 55gr Third picture.... some appear to be entering at an angle other than 0, and 90.... like 45ish. Which tells me this is not fake. Just looking at the profile of the bullets.... they look bigger than 55 grain. |
B.S. OMG!
I haven't been in skool for awhile but I think I still know my ABC's and numbers. On the bottom of the barrel it says "D P M S 5.56 1/9" here are some more shot's of the targets, bullets and a pin job I did on the FS. No I didn't drill the barrel but thanks for asking. 
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3465091146_5ca39fab8b_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3506/3464261571_9e8c4d29d9_o.jpg The scale is 1 inch, so each division is 1/48 of an inch, best I could do sry. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/3465079834_7f66740106_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3649/3465079404_1b253878f0_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3511/3464262825_448615de59_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3464262343_8a7080f719_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3477/3465078086_b458b018cf_b.jpg Upper is at the gunsmiths now so I'll take a pic of it tomorrow and what else? Bullet's are dirty from gas injected into the chamber correct? Because after the first few rounds I stopped and popped the mag and noticed the chamber round was already dirty as was the top round in the mag. Won't name who I got this from but when I went into the gunstore and asked for uppers, they had a lefty with SS barrel and this one which was used with "a couple thousand rounds" through it and that the barrel looked good or clean to them. The BCG came with no firing pin, firing pin retainer pin, cam pin or charging handle. I was able to obtain those parts from various online suppliers and assembled the parts myself, after a detailed cleaning. Check "My Topics" and you'll see a couple other posts concerning this gun. I was told that the stores gunsmith had looked at the gun, rebuilt or replaced the rings on the BCG, maybe some other parts and it was in sellable condition but missing the above parts I listed and that the sale was "as is" so that's the story. Caveat emptor eh? A lesson learned is a lesson earned. 
Wildkow p.s. BTW I only shot 26 rounds at 25 yards and they all hit the paper. Personally I'm quite pleased with the 1 bullseye and the 10 shot rapid fire group I shot to test cycling. I challenge anyone here to do better with bullets that tumble this badly. In fact I challenge anyone to accomplish a 92% tumble rate and about a 90% - 90 degree POI as I did, now that takes skillz. LOL!
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Not trying to be an ass. But, are you 100% sure there is nothing between you and your target?
I had the same results with a brand new M&P (1-9) Coincidently I was shooting the same ammo as you. I was freaking out. Every shot was keyholed like that. Turns out I was nicking an unseen tree branch. I shoot off the deck of my cabin down an alley cleared through the woods. No obstructions were visible through the scope. Bu that was the issue. And yes I feel stupid. |
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Whoever let that barrel back into the market is an asshole.
I hate when people just try to dump things off on others without fixing them. I will call the shop back and even though the sale was "as is" I can hope that they would give me a deal on a new barrel if that is necessary. I just do what the little voices in my head tell me to do, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on. Wildkow |
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Not trying to be an ass. But, are you 100% sure there is nothing between you and your target?
I had the same results with a brand new M&P (1-9) Coincidently I was shooting the same ammo as you. I was freaking out. Every shot was keyholed like that. Turns out I was nicking an unseen tree branch. I shoot off the deck of my cabin down an alley cleared through the woods. No obstructions were visible through the scope. Bu that was the issue. And yes I feel stupid. Nope nothing in the way, I was on the range, $18 for 26 rounds and a half hour of shooting and $2 for the scope. Could a bad or canted FS tumble the bullet, someone else mention the crown being off? I have no idea yet but I'll head down to the shop sometime today. What's killing me now is that I got my Red Dot, 3X, and 4 rail hand guard in yesterday and I'm dying to put them on an take pictures.
Wildkow p.s. I feel pretty stupid too and pretty soon I think I'll be a lot lighter in the pocket too! |
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Quoted:
It'd be interesting to try dropping a pulled bullet into the barrel.
How do you do that and would a gunsmith do something like this when trying to diagnose a problem? Wildkow A smith can slug the bore. He'll take a solf lead slug and drive it thru the bore. He can then measure the slug with a micrometer and read the dimensions. A bad crown will give you crap groups. I'd not expect it to cause the bullets to tumble. The bullets are not being stabilized which points to something more serious. BSW |
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The the gun store doesn't take care of you... let us know who they are. I don't care if it is used, "as-is", etc. To not at least test fire this rifle to make sure it was safe before selling does not inspire confidence. Luckily (I guess) this is not going to kill you... next time they sell a total POS without doing a little testing, who is going to get blown up? |
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Here is some of the stuff (pics) you guys asked for, I really appreciate your time and attention to this matter.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/3467308118_e7a1610e77_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3497/3467318162_24004c5978_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3529/3467317766_a8537dc74a_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/3466503715_09b1ab8e59_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3506/3466503609_080562dfd9_b.jpg Thanks a lot guys.
Wildkow |
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If you gunsmith doesn't tell you anything helpful, here is my suggestion:
Buy 2 boxes of different brands of 55gr ammo. Shoot some of each. That will verify if it is the ammo you have, or the barrel. If it is the barrel, I would take it back to the store with the target and raise hell. |
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man, i feel for you. do what postal0311 says to cover your ass and if the dealer/shop doesn't take care of you, post who they are.
at first i really thought you were jerking us around, but it doesn't look like it. Don't blame you when you look at how many of those hit almost perfectly sideways I wondered how I would frame this in a believable post. LOL! I'll know more tomorrow. I'm with zia and briansmith and putting my money on it being a shot out barrel. So close all the goodies and I can't use the damn thing! LOL!
Wildkow |
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OP “... here are some more shot's of the targets, bullets and a pin job I did on the FS. No I didn't drill the barrel ...”
I am guessing that the bolded part of your statement is causing the problem. The FS, or your pin job, may be contacting the bullets and causing them to tumble? |
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Gunsmith says it's a barrel problem most likely shotout as the grooves don't look right.
I will contact the sellers and see if they will do anything. This item was sold to me in "as is" condition. However, it was represented as in good condition except for the missing firing pin, firing pin retainer pin, cam pin and charging handle. Do I have a leg to stand on? What should I expect? My guess is they will as they seemed to be a reputable and friendly shop. Wildkow p.s. postal: I will probably try to do that today but the range charges $18.00. |
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Quoted:
Gunsmith says it's a barrel problem most likely shotout as the grooves don't look right. I will contact the sellers and see if they will do anything. This item was sold to me in "as is" condition. However, it was represented as in good condition except for the missing firing pin, firing pin retainer pin, cam pin and charging handle. Do I have a leg to stand on? What should I expect? My guess is they will as they seemed to be a reputable and friendly shop. Wildkow I'd let the shop try to fix the problem first. If they blow you off, here's what I would do: 1) File a claim in small claim's court. 'As-Is' doesn't mean you can sell junk that they've passed off as usable. A car dealer can't sell you a car where the motor has been replaced with a hunk of concrete and not tell you about the swap. That's fraud. 2) Out this dealer in your hometown forum. Everybody that lives in your state deserves to know exactly how they treat you. BSW |
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Gundealer says he will work with me until satisfied unless I'm a complete A-hole and want something that is beyond fair or his ability to do. But first he wants me to reclean the barrel and test fire with different ammo. Hmmmm, go shoot my AR okeydokey!
Wildkow |
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did he really say "unless I'm(you are) a complete A-hole"? Quoted: Gundealer says he will work with me until satisfied unless I'm a complete A-hole and want something that is beyond fair or his ability to do. But first he wants me to reclean the barrel and test fire with different ammo. Hmmmm, go shoot my AR okeydokey! Wildkow |
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Quoted:
Gundealer says he will work with me until satisfied unless I'm a complete A-hole and want something that is beyond fair or his ability to do. But first he wants me to reclean the barrel and test fire with different ammo. Hmmmm, go shoot my AR okeydokey!
Wildkow Is he cutting you a break on the ammo and cleaning supplies? |
| Looking at the pics of the fired brass, that's definitely not a 5.56 chamber despite the markings on the barrel; it's probably a 6.8 given how the neck has opened up. The bullets are just bouncing down the bore, so they're not stabilized at all since they're not spinning. A .224 bullet will probably drop right through the bore. It's a difficult job to rebore a barrel, so it's more likely to be a production error - a mis-marked barrel. You probably have a case against DPMS, unless it's a total forgery. |
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I don't have any spent brass on hand that hasn't been resized, but if your spent case will fit over the neck of an unfired case. You don't have a .224" barrel. A spent 6X45 will only start to slide over a 5.56. Spent 6.8 would slide right over. Verify the actual twist of barrel. If a .25" (1/4") drill rod will fit into the muzzle, it's not a .224.
This may be a blessing in disguise. I you're a 6.8 fan or know one. ronemus and bob332 have given good advice as have all the rest. Get the second opinion, take spent cases with the upper for the 'smith' to examine as well. Bullet prints did look long for 55's, but I don't use them so toss that. Let us know the out come. |
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Quoted:
Looking at the pics of the fired brass, that's definitely not a 5.56 chamber despite the markings on the barrel; it's probably a 6.8 given how the neck has opened up. The bullets are just bouncing down the bore, so they're not stabilized at all since they're not spinning. A .224 bullet will probably drop right through the bore. It's a difficult job to rebore a barrel, so it's more likely to be a production error - a mis-marked barrel. You probably have a case against DPMS, unless it's a total forgery.
The case would have ruptured or at least grossly expanded above the web if it was fired in a 6.8 chamber. The gun would not have cycled. Period. Extraction and ejection would have been nonexistent. That is a .223/5.56 with a shot out barrel. |
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I talked to a friend today about this. He has seen a 6x45 barrel marked 5.56 and not remarked when it was recut. In any case if you can get the shop to help with the costs of
rebarreling you will have a better ar than you counted on. By the way, mic your case mouths. |
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Ok guys thanks for all yout help but I am now 99% sure this is all "MY BAD" end of story.
I'm going out in the morning to shoot it and i will report back ASAP. I'd fess up now but the humiliation and embarrassment would be horrendous and my delicate but super sized ego would evaporate in a puff of smoke. The actual answer is in another of my posts, see if you can find it before I get back from the range tomorrow. Whoever said there is no such thing as a stupid question doesn't know me. Wildkow |
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O.K. I wager a brand new A2 grip that it's one of the following two solutions:
1) Barrel has one more hole in it than it is supposed to have (he drilled through to the bore when pinning the FH). Pin may have even protuded into the bore. 2) FH is misaligned and the bullets are striking the side of the FH just as it exits the muzzle of the barrel. For the OP's sake I hope it's the latter and not the former. BD |
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Quoted:
Ok guys thanks for all yout help but I am now 99% sure this is all "MY BAD" end of story. I'm going out in the morning to shoot it and i will report back ASAP. I'd fess up now but the humiliation and embarrassment would be horrendous and my delicate but super sized ego would evaporate in a puff of smoke. The actual answer is in another of my posts, see if you can find it before I get back from the range tomorrow. Whoever said there is no such thing as a stupid question doesn't know me. Wildkow 
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O.K. I wager a brand new A2 grip that it's one of the following two solutions:
1) Barrel has one more hole in it than it is supposed to have (he drilled through to the bore when pinning the FH). Pin may have even protuded into the bore. 2) FH is misaligned and the bullets are striking the side of the FH just as it exits the muzzle of the barrel. For the OP's sake I hope it's the latter and not the former. BD Ding! Ding! Ding! we have a winner! Thank you. You don't know what a relief it is to not to have to fess up to my own stupidity.
Actually there are no extra holes just extra bulges, I pinned both sides of the barrel as you can see in the pictures above. We mic'd the depth quite carefully, "measure twice, drill once." Inserted some soft 3/32' welding rod into the hole and clipped the excess off with side cutters. Then, wait for it, (drum roll) whacked the end of the rod with a ballpeen hammer to flatten it against the top of the barrel and spald(?) it out inside the hole for a tight fit, in preparation for spot welding. That simple tapping (not very hard) of the welding rod to flatten the small nib from the side cutters was enough to bulge the side of the barrel and cause the tumble. This is the most likely scenario and even though the shop I bought it from is willing to work with me I honestly can't take this to them and ask for some kind of deal or remedy. Arguments Pro/Con? Now for somemore sad news and I wish a gunsmith or two would chime in on this. How to fix it and what we have tried. We took a 6.5 mm reamer and reamed it back about 1/4 in to 3/8th's of an inch past the bulges. Effectively making it a 14" barrel instead of a 14.5" barrel, took it to the shooting range yesterday and discovered that it didn't help at all. So what to do next? Bigger hole, deeper depth, both or maybe just quit F'ing around and spend the bucks on a new barrel? It's just money right? No big deal, just like Obama, I'll print more money or in my case write checks, I have plenty left.
By the way we did drop a bullet in the barrel and it is 5.56/.223. I really don't feel to bad about this as two gunsmith's missed it also, hmmmm, I guess that doesn't say much about our gunsmith's around here does it? Both knew I had pinned the barrel. Thanks all, great community we have here I'll have to hang around some more. . . Just think of what you guys could learn from my mistakes? Wildkow |
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Too bad... you could sell it off cheap to someone that wants to cut it down for an SBR, or to pin on a long muzzle attachment. Let them know what you did to it, though... And I would not sell it for anything close to what a new barrel would cost. With barrels as difficult to find as they are... someone would probably be glad to have it. Or, you could go ahead and get a complete upper, and keep this one to show off to your friends.... it is kinda cool. |
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Quoted:
lets see pics of the flat spots in the brl... Those flat spots, actually bulges, into the barrel were very difficult to see and impossible to photograh. I tried several times but no joy. You can see the pin job I did in the above photos. After reaming a 6.5 mm hole down the muzzle on thursday I went out friday moring and put 150+ rounds through it hoping I could shoot it out, but no joy there either. I'm going to try one more time today and ream/drill a 8-10 mm hole straight down the muzzle and maybe 3/4 to a 1 inch behind the area where the bulges came through. I hope this fixes the problem. It seems to me that if this doesn't work then this wasn't the problem and I was seeing things in a desperate attempt to find the problem. I guess we would then be back to a shot out barrel, eh? Any gunsmiths out there care to chime in? Wildkow |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bullet tumble (Page 1 of 3)
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