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Posted: 10/10/2013 4:15:01 PM EDT
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HI all !
you may remember me and my ar from this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/616646_New_Build_fails_to_reload.html&page=1 so i took it to a smith and he found a bent gas tube. today i range tested it and one round in a 30 round mag and the bolt locks back! before this it did not do this. so i believe the under gassing issue has been fixed BUT now im on to round TWO. and this time i have better pics! so i load three in a mag and on round two it fails to load. it pinches the round and there are two dents in the round. it will shoot the first round that i load but when the gun tries to rechamber itself this happens and it fails and pinches. retested and occured FOUR times in a row. one pic the bolt is clear and locked back this was one round in a mag . i loaded and shot and it locked back correctly one other pic is a jammed round this is after i shot one and the ar tried to reload. and one pic is the rounds all with the same matching dent. please advise and tell me what to get my smith to do ? help me im n00b ... https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9VxOj0jcZaY/Ulc8KQfzkFI/AAAAAAAABkE/HyeYOP6bcNc/w759-h569-no/2013-10-10 https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kbsRnC919f4/Ulc0iRDxmzI/AAAAAAAABjo/P8rvtk5L2q4/w427-h569-no/2013-10-10 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OKM8DfRRfqQ/UlcwKF2QS_I/AAAAAAAABi0/DSIknXsyuew/w427-h569-no/2013-10-10 |
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OK , both times i was told new mags , these promags are brand new , i just bought them last weekish , today was their first outting with me , the shop i got them from i trust very well they have helped me phenomenally , i had 2 42 round promags and one other i got from spring guns and ammo . i do not thing its the mags. i bought all the parts individually , and i have noticed scaring on the rounds if i hand cycle the weapon.
i think , even though im n00b retartar, that this is feed ramp that my barrel needs a good reaming ? i have a few more pics, maybe that can help , let me get them moved from phone to laptop , will edit *edit* ok not all my mags are pro mags i also have used thermold. which was the first round i was told to ditch. i also have one mag i have no idea who makes that one , will go get it and snap a pic if i must , the one from spring guns and ammo , and then these two new promag 42 round mags. ok so also i noticed this lil scratch / dent on the bolt , anyone got a link to a BCG function test. one of my friends who is / was army small arms specialist is telling me to replace parts in the tip of my bolt. i would like to read up on BCG bolt test / function test but could not find good stuff on youtube. the empty chamber was ONE round in a mag , it locked back. previously before gum smith and gas tube realignment it would not lock back and was under gassed. so that pic shows after firing one round the bolt locked back , end of first problem beginning of round two. also , i get it , everyones opinion of promags, you think they are shit, we have established this , lets move forward with other potential issues. as i have a buddy who has alot of stuff who will let me try his mags USGI and pmags, will check back in with y'all once i get to the range with him too but that will have to wait for another day its almost time to go back offshore http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131010_185723_zps2ce0a7b1.jpg http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131010_170445_zpsd8776693.jpg http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131009_210600_zps11d6a946.jpg http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131009_210535_zpsb73d984b.jpg http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131009_210530_zps16a5f858.jpg |
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I was not a believer as well.. but I am now since I had to try for myself.
The spring they use in those mags inst strong enough, that's all. Cabels has the 40 round Pmags in stock here I just got mine in the mail yesterday. |
| OK well then i am going to have to wait unfortunately until i get paid at the end of the month. i will buy pmags next and i just messaged by friend to check his mags and tell me what he has i know he has usgi metal mags and i think pmags. once he gets back to me i will line up the time to drive down and shoot with him to test the theory given here. but heres a Q , lets just say you guys are right , what the HELL do i do with all these mags that have given me nothing but grief ? i sure as hell dont want em in my safe if i cant use em . and id feel like turd dumping them on someone else even if it was a fraction of what i paid for them , |
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Duh - Use them as target practice.
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OK well then i am going to have to wait unfortunately until i get paid at the end of the month. i will buy pmags next and i just messaged by friend to check his mags and tell me what he has i know he has usgi metal mags and i think pmags. once he gets back to me i will line up the time to drive down and shoot with him to test the theory given here. but heres a Q , lets just say you guys are right , what the HELL do i do with all these mags that have given me nothing but grief ? i sure as hell dont want em in my safe if i cant use em . and id feel like turd dumping them on someone else even if it was a fraction of what i paid for them , |
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Quoted:
Duh - Use them as target practice. Quoted:
Duh - Use them as target practice. Quoted:
OK well then i am going to have to wait unfortunately until i get paid at the end of the month. i will buy pmags next and i just messaged by friend to check his mags and tell me what he has i know he has usgi metal mags and i think pmags. once he gets back to me i will line up the time to drive down and shoot with him to test the theory given here. but heres a Q , lets just say you guys are right , what the HELL do i do with all these mags that have given me nothing but grief ? i sure as hell dont want em in my safe if i cant use em . and id feel like turd dumping them on someone else even if it was a fraction of what i paid for them , its comments like these that make me wary of what is said. i trust this site. but id rather leave them sitting on the shelf. my buddy just got back to me said he has USGI and p mags , im lining up to go shoot with him i will check back in here after i test with his mags and get video / pic results . thanks |
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Where in Texas are you? If you are near Austin, I would like to take a look at your rifle and see if I can figure out the issue.
I have a multitude of Good mags (ie Lancer, Pmag, USGI). Your thermold may be great or may be shitty. They had issues depending on the run. They were nicknamed "Ther-melts" for a reason. I bought 1 42rd promag and it had feed issues. I installed a Pmag follower and modified it slightly and it did not have feed issues after that. Would I trust it completely...hell no. I bought it on a whim before the 40rd Pmags were out. I have since replaced it with two Pmags. |
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The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the "bent gas tube" comment is that your barrel nut is out of time/alignment causing the bolt to push on the tube. Take a look at this by taking off your upper and hand cycling the bolt and pay careful attention when the bolt comes into contact with the tube. Does it take any force to get the bolt to close, can you feel the contact vis the gas tube? it should be practically indiscernible. I may be all wet on this, but take a look its free to do. Re the Pro Mags, I have never used them, but a good friend of mine tried using some at a Thunder Ranch class he attended and he was pretty unimpressed. I have good things to say about P mags, Troy and Lancer.....
Good luck getting your problems resolved......frustrating when the gun does not go bang! |
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its comments like these that make me wary of what is said. i trust this site. but id rather leave them sitting on the shelf. my buddy just got back to me said he has USGI and p mags , im lining up to go shoot with him i will check back in here after i test with his mags and get video / pic results . thanks Quoted:
Quoted:
Duh - Use them as target practice. Quoted:
OK well then i am going to have to wait unfortunately until i get paid at the end of the month. i will buy pmags next and i just messaged by friend to check his mags and tell me what he has i know he has usgi metal mags and i think pmags. once he gets back to me i will line up the time to drive down and shoot with him to test the theory given here. but heres a Q , lets just say you guys are right , what the HELL do i do with all these mags that have given me nothing but grief ? i sure as hell dont want em in my safe if i cant use em . and id feel like turd dumping them on someone else even if it was a fraction of what i paid for them , its comments like these that make me wary of what is said. i trust this site. but id rather leave them sitting on the shelf. my buddy just got back to me said he has USGI and p mags , im lining up to go shoot with him i will check back in here after i test with his mags and get video / pic results . thanks I wouldn't be upset with his comment. If the mags are junk, you might as well just pitch them. I wouldn't shoot them, just because I wouldn't want to pick up the plastic pieces. Mags that don't work are just not worth keeping around. |
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the crooked gas tube has been fixed it now locks back that was the first issue and has been resolved Could you please take the upper off, remove the BCG(bolt carrier group), and take some pictures of the inside of the upper showing the barrel extension/feed ramps? Also, you stated that the first round fires fine, but does it extract and eject properly? When you load the first round are you pulling back the charging handle and letting the BCG slam home, or are you slowly riding it forward until it chambers? 1) What buffer, and what buffer spring are you using? A carbine spring should be between 10 1/16" - 11 1/4" , and a rifle spring should be 11 3/4" - 13 1/2". Using a rifle spring in a carbine with collapsible stock can cause your problem. 2) Make sure you mag catch is screwed far enough in to properly engage your magazines. If it isn't, it can cause your magazines to slip down a little after the first shot causing troubles. 3) Make sure your gas block is not loose and has not moved forward after the incident with your gas tube. 4) Check the gas key on your BCG to make sure that it is good and tight/properly staked. Try to do these things and then get back to us. |
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Could you please take the upper off, remove the BCG(bolt carrier group), and take some pictures of the inside of the upper showing the barrel extension/feed ramps? Also, you stated that the first round fires fine, but does it extract and eject properly? When you load the first round are you pulling back the charging handle and letting the BCG slam home, or are you slowly riding it forward until it chambers? 1) What buffer, and what buffer spring are you using? A carbine spring should be between 10 1/16" - 11 1/4" , and a rifle spring should be 11 3/4" - 13 1/2". Using a rifle spring in a carbine with collapsible stock can cause your problem. 2) Make sure you mag catch is screwed far enough in to properly engage your magazines. If it isn't, it can cause your magazines to slip down a little after the first shot causing troubles. 3) Make sure your gas block is not loose and has not moved forward after the incident with your gas tube. 4) Check the gas key on your BCG to make sure that it is good and tight/properly staked. Try to do these things and then get back to us. Quoted:
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the crooked gas tube has been fixed it now locks back that was the first issue and has been resolved Could you please take the upper off, remove the BCG(bolt carrier group), and take some pictures of the inside of the upper showing the barrel extension/feed ramps? Also, you stated that the first round fires fine, but does it extract and eject properly? When you load the first round are you pulling back the charging handle and letting the BCG slam home, or are you slowly riding it forward until it chambers? 1) What buffer, and what buffer spring are you using? A carbine spring should be between 10 1/16" - 11 1/4" , and a rifle spring should be 11 3/4" - 13 1/2". Using a rifle spring in a carbine with collapsible stock can cause your problem. 2) Make sure you mag catch is screwed far enough in to properly engage your magazines. If it isn't, it can cause your magazines to slip down a little after the first shot causing troubles. 3) Make sure your gas block is not loose and has not moved forward after the incident with your gas tube. 4) Check the gas key on your BCG to make sure that it is good and tight/properly staked. Try to do these things and then get back to us. in response to all three , i bought all the parts and asked around and had another forum member here help with the finish assembly and final tightening. the first round that i shot that locked the bolt back i pulled the charging handle back and let it slam shut yes it ejected just fine. i will go grab the rifle and yank the spring and measure here in just a moment. the gun store / smith just fixed the gas tube i watched as he reassembled the rifle i think it was done correctly this time. i will inspect in a moment also but its a free float quad rail and can only see through holes as i have no tools. thats good advice i will let him shoot the mags and if they work fine i will list them as good. im not sure if this is relavant ? my buffer has been scarring up bad too ? mag catch was checked and corrected by gunsmith on last trip to shop http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131011_001114_zps5eca4a82.jpg http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131011_001027_zps9a7fffb0.jpg alot more pics coming |
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Where in Texas are you? If you are near Austin, I would like to take a look at your rifle and see if I can figure out the issue. I have a multitude of Good mags (ie Lancer, Pmag, USGI). Your thermold may be great or may be shitty. They had issues depending on the run. They were nicknamed "Ther-melts" for a reason. I bought 1 42rd promag and it had feed issues. I installed a Pmag follower and modified it slightly and it did not have feed issues after that. Would I trust it completely...hell no. I bought it on a whim before the 40rd Pmags were out. I have since replaced it with two Pmags. The reason was that because the Canuck Thermolds tended to melt on FA with a BFA, no issues that I can recall with them on FA with live ammo, and the US made Thermolds were a different plastic and did not seem to suffer this issue That all aside, I would think that it is your mags, I had failures like this with some no name aluminum mag, the spring was in backwards, not lifting the rear of the cartridge up high enough for the bolt to grab it, it sort of just scraped it off the top causing the FTF just like you are seeing.... I would check mags first, I am betting weak springs would cause the same issue |
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Newbie at building, but shot alot over the years and I have seen this before.
Guess 1: Mag lock is not adjusted properly. Try putting a mag in and then wiggle it and try to pull it out. If there is any play then that is probably the problem. Guess 2: Not all Mags are created equal and some rifles are finicky bit-hes. I have had rifles that would use any mag and other rifles that would only work with PMAGS. *shrugs* |
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What type of ammo are you using? Factory or reloads? The one picture of the dented rounds look like they may be reloads. I would recommend you use factory ammo until you get everything sorted out.
Are you using .223 or 5.56 ammo? Some ARs are designed only to fire 223, so if you use 5.56 you can have the rounds jam. I have also had issues with magazines. Not sure why, but some mags work better than others in some guns. It may be just a tiny bit off, but that tiny bit could be causing it to jam. |
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All my suggestions have been used up, I'm not gonna repeat everyone.
The only thing I can suggest for your mags, which may or may not be worth it to you, is rebuild kits. just swap these in |
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Last "bolt over base" malfunction troubleshooting thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_66/622279_My_first_post__Overgassing_.html&page=1#i6160625 Excessive cyclic rate/too much energy is not uncommon with carbine gas 16" barrels. One possibility that wasn't really discussed in that thread is an out-of-spec lower receiver. |
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If the majority of production AR's didnt come with Pmags, id wonder but it seems everything from $699 to $2000 comes with these mags, ive also heard good things about Lancer, and Troy
Ive got a couple each of Troy and Lancer, probably 25 Pmags......Pricewise, it seems like the Pmags are no more expensive than anything else |
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Excessive cyclic rate/too much energy is not uncommon with carbine gas 16" barrels. That's what I meant when I guessed he used the wrong buffer spring. I suppose he could also just try a heavier buffer, since it's not likely the wrong spring would even compress enough to catch another round. XD |
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Update,
im off shore so i cant fiddle with it but ive been paid so i am ordering parts to swap things with , firstly i just ordered 2 pmag's just basic pmags , since everyone insists i upgrade mags i went with these Magpul PMAG 30rd AR/M4 GEN M2 MOE, 5.56x45 Magazine from this link http://tradingplacepawn.com/pmagr-30-ar-m4-gen-m2-moer-5-56x45-magazine.html have two of them ordered and these will be the next mags i test with. also thanks to the link about over gassing i am about to order a new buffer and buffer spring , the h2/h3 , looking and reading into that now after posting this here. first i plan to test the gun as it currently is , just swapping in the P mags , i will have my buddy using my phone to tape the testing. then after pmag testing i will if nessacary swap in the heavier buffer and buffer spring. i also noticed a comment on the other thread about mag resting on the table . i made this mistake . the 40 round mags are to big and i had 4 sand bags under my rifle. i am now looking to a bi pod that has enough reach to get the mags up off the table also . and a note about another comment made on this current thread. i believe my stripped lower was out of spec. when i first started to hand assembly the rifle the stripped m4 upper would not seat into the stripped lower. it was way to tight. i ended up sanding it down so as to fit. this may be the case with the mag well too. now that i think about it if the mag well is slightly smaller than it is supposed to be it may cause ALL mags regardles of if they are p mags to pinch slightly. once i get home i will bust out my digital calipers and take measurements and post those here too. should be thursday when i can update on this data. mags wont be in for a bit as i just ordered them online. *EDIT* ok i followed the links and looked at the h2 and h3 , id like to order the h3 but im getting confused as to what i currently have in my gun. i googled and found a link to the archives here about the weights on them. i am thinking i need to weight the one in my rifle and see what i have. but also i would like to get the h3 but am concerned that it might be to much and that i should go h2 to go heavier than what i have but enough to slow the cycle to make it load. the mags are en route just got shipping notification but they will prob ship monday. any thoughts on wheter i should get a h2 or h3 ? if i get an h3 i dont want it to be to heavy so that the bcg wont lock back are my concerns vaildated or should i go h3 buffer ? thanks in advance , i am really looking forward to finally testing and finishing this rifle so i can finally get on to ordering lots of 556 also i am not sure as to if the ammo was reload i bought the 5.56 at academy it didnt appear to be reloads. i will check that and when i take the pmags to the range ensure its new 556 thanks |
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You filed on the lower?! I'm surprised you didn't mention that earlier. You may just have to replace it.
First, like you plan, try the PMAGs. I've never had a problem resting my mags on anything while shooting. I've even had people suggest it for stability, but maybe yours are finicky. If that doesn't work, try an H2 buffer & PMAGS. The most popular is the Spikes ST-H2, but they're kinda pricey at about $40. I've never heard of anyone needing an H3 except in some really unusual calibers or configurations. You may also pick up a Tubbs or Wolff extra power spring since they're fairly inexpensive, but IDK if having one would ever solve such a problem. They don't do nearly as much for cycling as changing the buffer. If you try the mags and an H2 buffer with no luck I'm guessing your lower is just trashed, but maybe go ahead and try the buffer spring. I look forward to your report. |
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OMG. You filed on the lower?! I can't believe you didn't mention that earlier. You may just have to replace it. First, like you plan, try the PMAGs. I've never had a problem resting my mags on anything while shooting. I've even had people suggest it for stability, but maybe yours are finicky. If that doesn't work, try an H2 buffer & PMAGS. The most popular is the Spikes ST-H2, but they're kinda pricey at about $40. I've never heard of anyone needing an H3 except in some really unusual calibers or configurations. You may also pick up a Tubbs or Wolff extra power spring since they're fairly inexpensive, but IDK if having one would ever solve such a problem. They don't do nearly as much for cycling as changing the buffer. If you try the mags and an H2 buffer with no luck I'm guessing your lower is just trashed, but maybe go ahead and try the buffer spring. I look forward to your report. i didnt shave the lower i shaved the lock points on the stripped upper , basically just took the black off , i just ordered the h2 stag arms buffer online. i followed the links above and looked at the links on the other post and ordered the stag arms h2 one. waiting on shipping notice from them too once these come in ill take it to the range and test |
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All my suggestions have been used up, I'm not gonna repeat everyone. The only thing I can suggest for your mags, which may or may not be worth it to you, is rebuild kits. just swap these in will have to wait they block certian websites out here and i cant watch it until i get home |
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will have to wait they block certian websites out here and i cant watch it until i get home Quoted:
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All my suggestions have been used up, I'm not gonna repeat everyone. The only thing I can suggest for your mags, which may or may not be worth it to you, is rebuild kits. just swap these in will have to wait they block certian websites out here and i cant watch it until i get home Don't worry. I think he linked to the wrong video anyway. That video is about a cheap (although, not my preferred Clevis method) way to install the pivot and takedown pins. There's nothing in that video about mags or rebuild kits. XD |
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my order of PMAG's came in , im still waiting on the h2 buffer, we are set to shoot this weekend i will atleast be able to test the BCG and the mags i will post with results and video and pics from the test once complete
*edit* ok since the pmags came in i sat down to strip the rounds out of the pmags and the first thing im noticing as im pulling them one for one is that sometimes the round is nose below the lip and also as the rounds come out that the neck where the round meets the casing is also getting caught on the plastic of the front , you guys have shown the light now and ill only order pmags from hence forth, im excited to test i just need to see if the buffer will come in also i got these pmags from a sale in the EE and they were 10.5 each , they are gen 2 , non window black , hell of a deal and here is a pic of the ammo box i was using on the test fire last week http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/soydergto/IMG_20131017_153218_zps535326cf.jpg |
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new parts are in , h2 buffer and pmags , going to the range today to shoot and test and video the chamber , i will edit this post and post back today with that information i gather
and wether or not the new mags and heavy buffer fix or make it worse , ill be back this evening with results |
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new parts are in , h2 buffer and pmags , going to the range today to shoot and test and video the chamber , i will edit this post and post back today with that information i gather and wether or not the new mags and heavy buffer fix or make it worse , ill be back this evening with results where u going to shoot tactical or american shooting center |
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ts fixed!!!!!!!!!!! So yea it was the mags .. Pmags ran like a fucking champ! Man we went to thunder out in Conroe but I'm down to shoot at american this week if you wanna go pm me we can meet up I have video to post when I get to the house of it running FLAWLESSLY
Ran with both buffer carbine and h2 just fine 160 rounds only one slip and I think its cause I mixed the ammo in the mag rem 223 to steel cased 223 monarch and it jammed on the cross over between the two different rounds [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIYU4b4ySAE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube] |
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i will never buy any other brand of mag now, i have tried three other brands and all failed miserably , i found these gen 2 pmags on EE for 10.50$ and wish i had more cash so i could get more
tradingplacepawn.com/shop-online/magazines.html |
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