AR Sponsor
Posted: 7/12/2013 3:38:50 PM EDT
| Any one know of a good CNC machine to make ar15 lower receivers with from the 0% forged blanks? |
|
Quoted:
I wanted to buy one and I was looking for an online class on operating one. I know here be a lot of failures while learning and I understand that. If you're buying they will be $15,000 and up used, you might get lucky at an auction and get a knee mill with a retrofitted CNC package for under $12,000. I have no experience with CNC mini mills so I have no idea what the prices are but expect it to be $5-8,000. Best bet for you is buying a cheap mini mill or a used knee mill and a 80% lower with tooling, cutters and accessories for around $1,000 to $5,000 Here's a good thread here on mini mills LINK |
|
So you want to make lowers, here is a real rough cost of what you want to get into:
- CNC Mill: 20K - Shure you can find cheaper ones, but cheap isn't always good - Decent air compressor -2k - Phase Converter or a properly wired shop - 1k and up - Tooling for your CNC mill - 3k - Measuring tools to inspect your lowers - $500 - Manufacturing Liscence from ATF (assuming you plan to sell) - $500 per yr - Trades tax (Forgot the real name for it) $2500 per yr - liability Insurace, there is only a few companies that will handle Firearm manufacturers - 10k per yr - Schooling to learn how to machine and opperate and program CNC equipment $100 a Credit (this is around what my local college carges for the 2 yr Machining program). Not trying to put your idea down just a realisitc view of SOME of the expenses you would be getting into to manufacture lowers. If this is really something you want to do, I suggest finding a local college and see if they hvae a manufacturing/machining program and taking it BEFORE you buy any equipment. Also some forums to check out if this is something you want to get into: www.practicalmachinist.com www.cnczone.com -A good low priced CNC mill to learn on IMO would be a Tormach. Then when you get a handle on your craft you will have an idea of what you will need to get the job done and find a larger CNC mill for production. |
|
Quoted:
So you want to make lowers, here is a real rough cost of what you want to get into: - CNC Mill: 20K - Shure you can find cheaper ones, but cheap isn't always good - Decent air compressor -2k - Phase Converter or a properly wired shop - 1k and up - Tooling for your CNC mill - 3k - Measuring tools to inspect your lowers - $500 - Manufacturing Liscence from ATF (assuming you plan to sell) - $500 per yr - Trades tax (Forgot the real name for it) $2500 per yr - liability Insurace, there is only a few companies that will handle Firearm manufacturers - 10k per yr - Schooling to learn how to machine and opperate and program CNC equipment $100 a Credit (this is around what my local college carges for the 2 yr Machining program). Not trying to put your idea down just a realisitc view of SOME of the expenses you would be getting into to manufacture lowers. If this is really something you want to do, I suggest finding a local college and see if they hvae a manufacturing/machining program and taking it BEFORE you buy any equipment. Also some forums to check out if this is something you want to get into: www.practicalmachinist.com www.cnczone.com -A good low priced CNC mill to learn on IMO would be a Tormach. Then when you get a handle on your craft you will have an idea of what you will need to get the job done and find a larger CNC mill for production. Diesel pretty much nailed it on the head. You can't just buy a machine and start cranking out lowers. I helped a buddy put together a business plan just before all the craziness as he was looking at $150k just in start up costs. Granted there were some local issues, office lease etc etc but there is more to it than simply buying a machine. If you want to chat to someone that's looked over the financial side of things like this before drop me a pm. In the meantime you might want to come up with a plan which would include total operating costs, expected revenue etc. |
|
A couple of other things to add to the list. Most tooling is considered consumable. That is, there are only so many parts that a particular endmill, drill bit, reamer, vise jaw, etc. will last to produce. With high speed CNC, you also need to consider coolant costs. None can be run dry and keep up with production times, unlike slower conventional machines in which coolant can be an option. Along with that there is the power requirement. Many smaller CNC machines require 15 to 30 horsepower (and more) motors, while the equivalent conventional machines make due with 1.5 to 7.5 horsepower. Your shop's power must be able to handle the electrical loads.
ETA: I talked to a CNC salesman a while back in order to get an estimate of cost of new machine and tooling to do much of the smaller machining work I do, and the estimate was about $250,000 with only a 25% reduction in time. This would be for only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the workload---the company would never pay off the CNC machine in our lifetimes. However, I do repair work and each job is a single set-up and seldom are any two in a row the same. One of the other problems with the kind of work I do (Industrial electrical motors) , much of it must be done without coolant due to retaining the integrity of insulating varnish, and the cost of rewashing and baking after machine work. |
|
The idea of making "commodity lowers", to compete with the likes of Aero, Tactical Machining, etc, just doesn't make sense, IMO. It's super hard to compete with the "big boys" on production. Remember the $65 blem lowers a couple summers ago? I stocked up on them. Regular price was $85-$100. Hell, we're already seeing sub-$100 'regular price' lowers again. Making commodity lowers (standard, from forgings) in that price range, with the equipment a startup is likely to have, doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how it could be a sustainable margin. When you are running pallets of them through your horizontal, and broaching them on a broach line, sure. Some guy with a 3 (or 4) axis vertical mill? Not gonna happen. Niche stuff? Definite possibility. Production volumes on commodity lowers? Never gonna happen. A full-blown CNC shop was asking me about this a month or so ago. They already have facility, shitload of machines, proper licensing (currently making 1911 frames, defense dept contracts on misc stuff, etc). When he said he planned on using a wire EDM machine for magwells, I figured he was done. Threw out the examples above of sub $100 retail lowers, and $65 blems. I don't think you can make them in sufficient quantity to be cost effective, at that price point, without a broaching machine. EDM just takes too long, and has too much consumable cost for production runs. They're thinking about offering some trick billet products, though. Lest you think I'm a poo-poo'er, keep this in mind: I moved an old Hurco MHC 30 into my backyard shop a couple of weeks ago. My first CNC machine! It has seen light use, very clean, box way machine in excellent mechanical condition. Fired it up for the first time (at my place) last week, and I'm reading all the manuals now. $10k for the mill, with a couple dozen CAT40 tool holders, misc tooling, and a 30HP commercial RPC. Also included some coolant, way lube, functional (but nothing special) vice, etc. A turn-key, non-4th setup. Another $3200 to move. I think I overpaid on moving, but it was residence to residence (which no mover likes), and it was the least expensive bid out of the 6-8 I looked requested. I've already got a bunch of random tooling, and a 220 wired, concrete-floor, insulated 24x35 workshop in the back yard. A couple of years ago I attended the MTT (machine tool technology) course at a local community college. On my own dime, own time, for my own personal knowledge. It was $5-6k or so, and I was not able to complete it due to a change in my work schedule. I also donated time sporadically throughout a year period, at a local CNC shop owned by a friend. I ran the Hardinge and SNK lathes, ENSHU mills, and random manual stuff. Mostly cutting stainless for the food industry, some medical stuff, and some delrin. Learned a lot. Now that the mill is sitting in my shop, I feel absolutely clueless. lol Had to contact the seller to figure out how to turn the spindle on in MDI! I'll justify that with "I'm used to Funac, and this is an old oddball Dynapath" lol Point being, even though it feels like I have a "setup on the cheap", it's just because I spread it out. Shop, machine courses, donating time at the shop to learn, etc. Those were all stepping stones to getting a machine of my own, and there is an additional amount of time / $ that were spent. I was considering a new Tormach 1100 w/ goodies for $18k, as I didn't have faith in my abilities to find / test / "pass" a good used commercial. While overpaying for a "high end hobby" machine, the Tormach would be new, have a support network, and inexpensively replaced / sourced parts. In addition, it would be unloaded off the forklift, and should be making chips shortly. Downsides are rigidity, weight, steppers, Mach3, etc. Thankfully, my friend/boss at the CNC shop I mentioned above, was willing to check out this machine I found about 4 hours from my home. He went with me to inspect it, took measuring devices, checked ways, screws, repeatability, head squareness, etc. Gave it a "go". He's also supplied the Hillman 15ton dollies we used to position / place it in my shop (machine weighs 10,500 lbs), as well as the jack and levelling tools. The levelling tools are still sitting on the table, a week later, so we can check for any "settling". I'm super happy I found this clean, used production quality machine (with 24 tool ATC, etc) for about 1/2 the price of the Tormach. While not new, it's obviously a far superior machine. No 4th axis yet, but the machine is ready for one, and I found a functioning 4th for a Dynapath Delta 20 on eBay a couple months ago, for $1000. Should the electronics shit themselves, the iron is solid, and a good candidate for a retrofit. Back on track......if you have a "machining itch" you want to scratch, and purchasing a machine will do that...by all means, JUMP IN! It'll be great. If, however, you want to become rich making / selling AR15 lowers...I'd seriously reconsider. I have an "itch" to make stuff. While AR lowers will definitely be on the list (personal use for now, maybe oddball / niche stuff later), they aren't the sole purpose for the machine. While I hope to create a small business that will replace my current income, I don't have to do so. I already have the facilities, have no rent, have no additional overhead, and the machine is paid for. Instead of purchasing a motorcycle (to replace the last one I sold, a few years ago), I purchased this machine. "hobby with potential" if you will. For a single-machine guy wanting to go into high-volume production, it's going to be real tough to compete with the established big dogs. Here's a photo of Larue's shop, for instance:  from http://www.laruetactical.com/machining-operation-tour If you have a machine, and you want to make a business out of it, consider what you can offer, which the market wants / needs. High-volume, commodity parts are likely not it. Just my unsolicited $0.02 |
|
On a related note, the company I work for already pays ITAR, and has an FFL (but the wrong type for making lowers), and there is a mill parked next to my lathes that only operates 5-10 days a year.
I was trying my best to convince them to get the proper FFL, and let me and a few other guys get it rolling for semi custom billet receivers. We already get aluminum direct from Alcoa, and our anodizer already does the work for three big names in firearms lowers. They gave the idea a no-go, because we are already backlogged on lathe hours too badly, and need me retooling those things for the rapid changeover small parts. I'll bring the idea back in the winter. |
| While everyone is saying you can't make any money doing what you asked about. I say if it is what you want to do try it. Depending on the work space your machine will have you should be able to make more then 1 an hour. I have a buddy who is making his on a Haas machine. He says he can make about 9 billet lowers am hour and he is using the CNC for the mag wells. |
|
Quoted:
While everyone is saying you can't make any money doing what you asked about. I say if it is what you want to do try it. Depending on the work space your machine will have you should be able to make more then 1 an hour. I have a buddy who is making his on a Haas machine. He says he can make about 9 billet lowers am hour and he is using the CNC for the mag wells. I had a machine shop making 80% lowers for me earlier this spring in orders or 50 at a time. A billet takes longer than a forged. I toured LAR before they were sold to the Freedom group last year and I swear total run time on a forged lower was 15minutes. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly. In the end just the magwell on my forged lowers took something like 30 minutes. If your buddy is pumping these things out from a block of aluminum in 6.6 minutes with all the setup changes my hat is off to him. That's incredible machining. |
| I asked a lot of questions about it because it interested me. Basically he has 9 lowers going at once in 3 different positions all in the same machine and moves them. I asked him how long each run was and he said 20 minuets. As I don't know squat about CNC machines I can't say if he was blowing smoke. When I was at the shot show Last year Haas had a machine set up I talked at lengeth to the sales rep since once again this interested me and I am lookin for my retirement gig. He seemed to think it would not be hard to move 9 an hour with the right equipment. |
|
There is (almost) no money to be made making regular 5.56mm type receivers from a base forging.
To be profitable you need:
Custom Billet can be faster - as long as you don't go nutz with the 3D profiling like is done on the AR45 and some other "billet trying to mimic a forging" receivers. When I was doing receivers (was an 07 for 12 yrs) I used a 32 tool High Speed vertical 3 axis milling center, a 3axis CNC Knee mill and a basic Bridgeport manual mill. Even with all this it wasn't cost effective because my lot sizes were too small and the anodize (outsourced) was killing me on cost per unit ( and quality consistancy.) *People seem get all bent when they think about broaching the mag well. Its a question of how much time and manual labor you are willing to devote to a single part feature. There are machines that will do this in 1 pass - and those are the mega buck units that scare people. In reality - you can rough out the mag well to act as broach guides and can do it with fixturing on a large manual arbor press with 5 different broaches. *!*!*! - Keep in mind that every time the receiver is moved from one fixture or operation to another there is a chance for a scratch or ding - and many of your customers are going to expect a flawless surface finish held to a higher standard than the skin on the centerfold of the month. !*!*!* What wastes time! - All that fancy engraving! - Skip it! Get a few manufactures stamp made and stamp each area - ONLY THE UNIQUE SERIAL NUMBER NEEDS TO BE ENGRAVED, and even that can be done with a sequential numbering stamp. If I were to do this today I would want a Horizontal with 4 sided tombstones and a pallet changer with 4 pallets minimum. Getting back to staff - You need enough key people that the production can run year around and doesn't come to a dead stop when someone is out sick or away on vacation for 3 weeks. Likewise - do you have enough people to go to 2 shifts when demand goes nutz. The flip side of the game is gambling on inventory. Yes excess stock gets you raped in taxes, but if you can afford the taxes, and run normal production when demand is low, and put up 10-15% on the shelf you will be golden when the next INSAINITY blitz hits the market. Setting up a profit sharing plan with employees will really help moral when ask to go 2 shifts. (Employees are not stupid - they know when prices go nutz.) Niche markets are where the money is at - look at the cost of what the AR45 80% paperweight was going for - Then add the finishing costs to have it completed by a real 07FFL. There were a few small shops doing 80% with Sten mag wells - again - There profit was blown by having the mag well extraaa pretty by having it WEDM cut. I could go on and on.... I don't make receivers anymore except when I need to build my own new wildcat. 
|
| Since you seem to be the only one here that has done it as a business, how many units an hour would be a reasonable expectation to out out with one machine? Also what was your per unit cost to hard coat anodize? One of my fire DS down south always complaines that he is waiting on the coater to finish parts. |
|
Quoted:
Since you seem to be the only one here that has done it as a business, how many units an hour would be a reasonable expectation to out out with one machine? Also what was your per unit cost to hard coat anodize? One of my fire DS down south always complaines that he is waiting on the coater to finish parts. If you have a good relationship with an anodizing company, you can get great results. I don't know why my employer doesn't do it in house (We've been moving $30-35m a month of our products, and almost every part is anodized), but when we tell the coaters that we need certain parts tomorrow, they make it happen. As for parts per hour... There is always room for speed improvements, and you might not have the reputation to move 300 receivers a week. The big guys in the high production AR parts business started out doing gun parts during their slow time. They had idle machines that they wanted to still make money with, so they pumped out a few receivers when they weren't taking aircraft parts orders. If you want a low dollar product to fill your unworked machines, go with forged blanks and make 6-9 receivers an hour, and create a name by making affordable yet high quality goods. If your entire platform for creating a shop is to make guns though... Make something unique. Custom billet lowers can still be churned out at a relatively rapid rate, but they can fetch a higher sale price, create a following (ie; Seekins), and can even be custom machined in a way that still looks good, yet saves time. I can see certain dimensions being tricky to machine quickly, and creative ways to make them look unique yet take less time can be accomplished easily. |
AR Sponsor