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Posted: 11/14/2012 6:49:17 PM EDT
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What is the general consensus on carbine barrel length? Is it worth going to a 16” barrel to avoid having to pin on a flash hider? Do you really gain that much maneuverability/weight savings with the 14.5”, or is it mostly in the looks?
Also, as I understand it, the length of gas system primarily effects felt recoil, is that correct? The shorter the system, the more recoil? Again, sorry for newbie questions, I just wanted to confirm what I have been reading. -Clint |
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Personal preference. I like being able to change out the hider, so I went 16". Midlength is the ideal gas system for 16" as carbine is for 14.5" based on dwell time. Realistically, it's hard to tell the difference in felt recoil between the two if the gas port diameters are sized correctly. Really, I can't tell. So again, personal preference.
Read more here: http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml |
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As stated, practically speaking, the only thing 16 vs. 14.5/pinned gets you is the ability to change FH should you ever want to do so. If you get a 'good' FH upfront you probably won't need to change (other than for looks) unless you get a can.
ETA: read fail on my part. |
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It's not "just" changing flash suppressors. Pinned muzzle break limits your ability to readily make future changes to your rifle configuration with handguards and gas blocks also.
I usually recommend avoiding a pinned 14.5 as a first rifle, just because so many want to start experimenting and changing stuff around, and are unable to do so. Once you get a feel for things and can be more sure of what you want in a rifle setup, then think about a pinned 14.5/14.7. |
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Quoted:
It's not "just" changing flash suppressors. Pinned muzzle break limits your ability to readily make future changes to your rifle configuration with handguards and gas blocks also. I usually recommend avoiding a pinned 14.5 as a first rifle, just because so many want to start experimenting and changing stuff around, and are unable to do so. Once you get a feel for things and can be more sure of what you want in a rifle setup, then think about a pinned 14.5/14.7. The way you stated it makes more sense than my way. If you are certain of your configuration, pinned is OK. If you plan on future changes, pinned not so much. 
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If legal in your state, don't discount going shorter than 16" as an NFA item (Short Barreled Rifle).
My 10.3" is absolutely tiny in appearance and handling compared to my 16" non-NFA weapon, and it is really just 5" shorter. A couple/few inches can make a world of difference in handling, looks and unfortunately if done badly, reliability. Just another option to consider. |
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Quoted:
It's not "just" changing flash suppressors. Pinned muzzle break limits your ability to readily make future changes to your rifle configuration with handguards and gas blocks also. I usually recommend avoiding a pinned 14.5 as a first rifle, just because so many want to start experimenting and changing stuff around, and are unable to do so. Once you get a feel for things and can be more sure of what you want in a rifle setup, then think about a pinned 14.5/14.7. Guys, again, thanks for all the help. This is the kind of insight I am lacking right now. Reading all of the articles on 14.5” vs. 16”, no one had pointed that out. -Clint |
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Quoted:
Personal preference. I like being able to change out the hider, so I went 16". Midlength is the ideal gas system for 16" as carbine is for 14.5" based on dwell time. Realistically, it's hard to tell the difference in felt recoil between the two if the gas port diameters are sized correctly. Really, I can't tell. So again, personal preference. Read more here: http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml I have this bookmarked and will read it tonight - looks like really good information. I love hearing the engineering theory behind things! -Clint |
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<––ABSOLUTELY! Quoted:
If legal in your state, don't discount going shorter than 16" as an NFA item (Short Barreled Rifle). My 10.3" is absolutely tiny in appearance and handling compared to my 16" non-NFA weapon, and it is really just 5" shorter. A couple/few inches can make a world of difference in handling, looks and unfortunately if done badly, reliability. Just another option to consider. |
| Also take weight into consideration. I put together a 14.5" mid length gas perm that is 6.7# (just irons on it now). It has a lot more recoil impulse than my 16" carbine gas that weighs 8.5# (M4s, VG, spare batteries, spare bolt, sling, and flashlight, BUIS). Shorter barrels reduce weight quickly as well as profiles. I would much rather shoot my 16" right now. But that 1.5" shorter makes a big difference in handling, feels much shorter. |
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I originally went with a 16" Carbine.. (was cheap).. (I had a both a DPMS and PSA uppers)..
I shoot in a BAN state so I had to pin something on anyway.. After figuring that option out (Miculek Comp/Brake) I sold the 16" and bought a 14.5" upper and bought a cheap mig welder from HF.. Overall I am happy now with my current BCM HF 14.5" Middy with pin/welded Miculek (go figure) Comp/Brake.. If your in or shoot in a BAN state maybe a 14.5" with something pin/welded would be a good choice.. (shipping to ADCO or having the retailer pin/weld is a GREAT option). Removing the chosen muzzle device on a 14.5"-14.7" can be tricky and you could mangle your muzzle.. Keep in mind the above posts about 14.5" in Carbine gas, and the 16" in Mid-length gas.. 14.5-14.7" Mid-lengths can be picky.. and sometimes the wrong buffer weights can affect you and your ammo choices as well.. Cheaper ammo sometimes has less KICK and may not cycle in a Middy with H2-H3 buffer.. but Carbines are usually 100% GTG.. I run a Carbine buffer in my BCM.. I like to run cheap (Wolf Mil-Classic) ammo though most of the time.. 
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I'd say go with the perm FH on a 14.5. Makes it easier to justify a second build cuz the first is harder to modify.  But seriously if you go with a 2 piece gas block it's no harder to modify than any other barrel length. I just finished up my first build and before I did the final assembly I put it together and took it apart a bunch of times with no problems what so ever. It feels more compact and much nicer than my brother's off the shelf 16" bushmaster.
I am using this gas block: http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_6&products_id=43 With this over it: http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_4_50&products_id=96 If you don't want the gas block covered then you have lots of options for a gas block. YHM alone has them in 10 different configurations to pick from let alone what any other company might make. |
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I am in the process of building my first AR and had the same issue with 16" vs. 14.5". I decided on 14.5" (mid length gas system) since I like the smaller profile, and actually just had my FH fixed over the weekend.
One thing you may want to look into is having it silver soldered/brazed rather than pinned and welded. Silver soldering is still a legal method of permanently fixing a FH, but in the even you'd need to remove the FH you can simply heat it back up and take it off. Pinning and welding is much more permanent and will require the destruction of the FH if you need to take it off. The smith I had do the silver brazing prefers the silver since it's a lot less work, and I wanted the solder in the event that I needed to take off the FH. Just make sure to put your gas block on first because it isn't going on after that FH is on. |
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Quoted:
I'd say go with the perm FH on a 14.5. Makes it easier to justify a second build cuz the first is harder to modify. But seriously if you go with a 2 piece gas block it's no harder to modify than any other barrel length. I just finished up my first build and before I did the final assembly I put it together and took it apart a bunch of times with no problems what so ever. It feels more compact and much nicer than my brother's off the shelf 16" bushmaster.
I am using this gas block: http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_6&products_id=43 With this over it: http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_4_50&products_id=96 If you don't want the gas block covered then you have lots of options for a gas block. YHM alone has them in 10 different configurations to pick from let alone what any other company might make. You're still limited in choices with this setup. The YHM 2 piece gas block isn't small and many rails will not fit over it. I had a similiar set up as you I had their light weight rail though, my problem with it was it was to fat. So I ended up going with a 16in barrel, lopro gas block and 12in LaRue rail. To keep it as short as possible I went with Smith Shorty Vortex from Spikes. 
Here's the before pic. 
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Quoted:
What is the general consensus on carbine barrel length? Is it worth going to a 16” barrel to avoid having to pin on a flash hider? Do you really gain that much maneuverability/weight savings with the 14.5”, or is it mostly in the looks? Also, as I understand it, the length of gas system primarily effects felt recoil, is that correct? The shorter the system, the more recoil? Again, sorry for newbie questions, I just wanted to confirm what I have been reading. -Clint Newbie question here. So based on the responses to the original post, am I to understand that getting a 14.5" barrel and then adding a 2" FH to it will make it 16.5" and therefore making it compliant with the law? And if I added the same FH to a 16" (already in compliance), I'd end up with an 18"? With those questions asked, I'm in a state (GA) that I don't think I would need to have the FH welded as long as I reach that golden 16" number. Is that correct? 2nd part: Hey NOS68, what did you think of the Stark SE-1 AR-15 Grip? -Nate |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What is the general consensus on carbine barrel length? Is it worth going to a 16” barrel to avoid having to pin on a flash hider? Do you really gain that much maneuverability/weight savings with the 14.5”, or is it mostly in the looks? Also, as I understand it, the length of gas system primarily effects felt recoil, is that correct? The shorter the system, the more recoil? Again, sorry for newbie questions, I just wanted to confirm what I have been reading. -Clint Newbie question here. So based on the responses to the original post, am I to understand that getting a 14.5" barrel and then adding a 2" FH to it will make it 16.5" and therefore making it compliant with the law? And if I added the same FH to a 16" (already in compliance), I'd end up with an 18"? With those questions asked, I'm in a state (GA) that I don't think I would need to have the FH welded as long as I reach that golden 16" number. Is that correct? -Nate Yes, if you have a 16" barrel, adding a 2" FH will take it to 18" If you have a 14.5 barrel, and no SBR lower, you MUST PERMANENTLY attach something to the end of the barrel to bring it over 16" total. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What is the general consensus on carbine barrel length? Is it worth going to a 16” barrel to avoid having to pin on a flash hider? Do you really gain that much maneuverability/weight savings with the 14.5”, or is it mostly in the looks? Also, as I understand it, the length of gas system primarily effects felt recoil, is that correct? The shorter the system, the more recoil? Again, sorry for newbie questions, I just wanted to confirm what I have been reading. -Clint Newbie question here. So based on the responses to the original post, am I to understand that getting a 14.5" barrel and then adding a 2" FH to it will make it 16.5" and therefore making it compliant with the law? And if I added the same FH to a 16" (already in compliance), I'd end up with an 18"? I liked it the only reason I changed was the MIAD fits my hand better. As for the angles of the grip I didn't have a preference. With those questions asked, I'm in a state (GA) that I don't think I would need to have the FH welded as long as I reach that golden 16" number. Is that correct? 2nd part: Hey NOS68, what did you think of the Stark SE-1 AR-15 Grip? -Nate I liked the Stark but the MIAD fits my hand better. I didn't have a preference between the different angles of the two. |
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So based on the responses to the original post, am I to understand that getting a 14.5" barrel and then adding a 2" FH to it will make it 16.5" and therefore making it compliant with the law? The muzzle device has to be "permanently attached" in order to be considered as part of the barrel length. Permanently attached including (but not limited to) seam welding, spot welding in 4 places around the circumference, or high temperature (silver) solder/brazing. Blind pinning and then welding over the pin is also commonly done. |
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Clint, based on your other questions and some of the responses above I thought I would jump in and try to clarify something.
Most existing, standard 16" barrels with a 2" muzzle device attached usually come in at a measurement of around 17.25 to 17.50" as the muzzle device threads over the end of the barrel, You're not getting the full length of the muzzle device. If you play with a 14.5-14.7" barrel intending on meeting the Federally required magical 16" over-all barrel length, take this into consideration before executing. This could potentially save you grief from the ATF. Some companies sell specially re-designed muzzle devices to meet and exceed Federal requirements when properly attached to specific barrel lengths. As a side note, the ATF measures barrel length by closing the bolt on a AR and then sliding a metal rod down the barrel until it comes into contact with the bolt face, they do not count non-permanently attached muzzle devices. |
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Clint, based on your other questions and some of the responses above I thought I would jump in and try to clarify something. Most existing, standard 16" barrels with a 2" muzzle device attached usually come in at a measurement of around 17.25 to 17.50" as the muzzle device threads over the end of the barrel, You're not getting the full length of the muzzle device. If you play with a 14.5-14.7" barrel intending on meeting the Federally required magical 16" over-all barrel length, take this into consideration before executing. This could potentially save you grief from the ATF. Some companies sell specially re-designed muzzle devices to meet and exceed Federal requirements when properly attached to specific barrel lengths. As a side note, the ATF measures barrel length by closing the bolt on a AR and then sliding a metal rod down the barrel until it comes into contact with the bolt face, they do not count non-permanently attached muzzle devices. Thanks! That's a good point. So, I shouldn't assume just any flash hider, comp, or break will get me to 16" and be legal, right? -Clint |
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