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Posted: 10/24/2010 6:35:09 PM EDT
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Who, in the opinion of the forum, makes the best billet uppers? I currently have a couple Larue Stealth uppers on order, and own a third, but at $250 a pop, I guess I am really looking for seond best. How are the Daniel Defense uppers?
Does it really HAVE to be a "billet", are there not proper forged uppers of high quality? Thanks! |
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as far as quality forged... sure.. there are alot of them. depending on what you mean by qaulity?
I personally would only put billet on a gun that is just a fun gun. If its a serious rifle it should be forged... but thats just me. I have been planning out my next build (while im working on one now of course) And ill probably use billet. I think ill be getting an SI Defense set, mostly because they are the guys im getting my forged lower from for this current build and their billy ones dooo look sexy. 
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I personally see billet as a way to make more money, but thats just me. Billet is great for things like flywheels and stuff that undergoes alot of stress changes. People will tell you that billet is better because it costs more, or its more "in spec" when machined, which both are rediculous statements. Billet costs more because of the machine time it takes to turn a hunk of aluminum into the proper shape. With a forging or a casting the part is already closer to shape so less machine time which means less cost. The "in spec" statement is stupid as well because something is either in spec, or not. . .there is no "more in spec".
People like the billet lowers and uppers because they can be slightly beefier, or have bigger flared magwells due to the starting size of the material, this isnt possible with most forgings that come from one or two forging and casting houses. To me its not worth the double the cost for billet lowers and uppers, YMMV of course. To put it into perspective all the military rifles are made off of castings and forgings, if it was better to go billet dont you think they would have already? I mean we all know money is just an object to the government, so its not like costs would matter. Pat |
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WOW. That thing is SEXY. I'm glad my post drew this reply. Gotta look into a setup like that SI. Dang...
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as far as quality forged... sure.. there are alot of them. depending on what you mean by qaulity? I personally would only put billet on a gun that is just a fun gun. If its a serious rifle it should be forged... but thats just me. I have been planning out my next build (while im working on one now of course) And ill probably use billet. I think ill be getting an SI Defense set, mostly because they are the guys im getting my forged lower from for this current build and their billy ones dooo look sexy. http://shop.si-defense.com/v/vspfiles/photos/SI%20223%20MS-GEN2-4T.jpg |
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I personally see billet as a way to make more money, but thats just me. Billet is great for things like flywheels and stuff that undergoes alot of stress changes. People will tell you that billet is better because it costs more, or its more "in spec" when machined, which both are rediculous statements. Billet costs more because of the machine time it takes to turn a hunk of aluminum into the proper shape. With a forging or a casting the part is already closer to shape so less machine time which means less cost. The "in spec" statement is stupid as well because something is either in spec, or not. . .there is no "more in spec". People like the billet lowers and uppers because they can be slightly beefier, or have bigger flared magwells due to the starting size of the material, this isnt possible with most forgings that come from one or two forging and casting houses. To me its not worth the double the cost for billet lowers and uppers, YMMV of course. To put it into perspective all the military rifles are made off of castings and forgings, if it was better to go billet dont you think they would have already? I mean we all know money is just an object to the government, so its not like costs would matter. Pat Money is an object to the gov't....that's why everything goes to the lowest bidder. The exception is welfare...apparently our "frugal" gov't doesn't seem to have a problem paying people to sit on the couch that's rotting on their front porch and make babies that grow up and shoot us. But anyway...back to the billet thing. Yea I have often wondered that too....one would think intuitively that a forging is stronger than a machined chunk because of the way the crystals of aluminum get sort of interwoven together in a forging as opposed to just cut off in a billet. But who knows. We need a metalurgist in here! |
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I am a mechanical engineer with a minor in materials engineering . . . hence why i said its a load of crap to say billet is better for an upper or lower. Your correct, forging can be stronger than a peice of billet, the treatment of the metal works more of the disconects and imperfections in the crystal grain structure. These disconects are what cause there to be a higher tensile strength on the stress strain curve, and you get a higher hardeness as well.
Both billet and and forged lowers and uppers will do thier job, its just what i said before. Billet cost more for no real benifit in my opinion. My parents are chemical engineers and my uncle is a metalurgist, and we all love firearms. We have actually sat and talked about what a waste the billet parts are honestly. The process i am looking into for uppers and lowers is Vacuume Casting followed by forging it. Been used in the aircraft and motorsports world for years and is working well. Its how alot of Moto GP race teams do trial cam shafts and stuff. Pat |
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The fit and finish of the billet upper and lowers is much nicer than the forged. I like function and beauty.
All this talk about forged being stronger than billet is correct but pointless to me. As with most people on this forum I will never run an AR hard enough to worry about which is stronger. |
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The fit and finish of the billet upper and lowers is much nicer than the forged. I like function and beauty. All this talk about forged being stronger than billet is correct but pointless to me. As with most people on this forum I will never run an AR hard enough to worry about which is stronger. And this is exactly what it comes down to. Artistic impression and the attraction to something different. Proven durability of the Honda or the pure sexiness of the Lamborghini. 
The billet is always going to sell and be somewhat sucessful because its something different and attractive to a lot of us. I'm disappointed its not as strong as the forged and the high price but I can't help fantisize about saving up and building a Mega MA-TEN Sunday only shooter. 
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I also disagree on the fit and finish being better on a billet gun, again see what i said about being "more in spec." As long as the forged parts are machined to the same tolerances as the billet the fit will be just as good, sure you may get one upper that is at the low end of the spec tolerances and and upper that is at the high spec range of tolerances that could cause some loose fits, but that can happen with both the billet and the forged parts.
Yes billet is sexy or whatever, I love the inclusion of the trigger guards on the billet peices, and I think the Mega MaTens are amazing and I have two sets myself, but i bought them because the price was right, not because they were billet. Infact it didnt even cross my mind they were billet untill i finally looked at them and read the info. So anyways your fit and finish on a reciever is all dependant on who does the machine work and how careful they are to hold thier tolerances. I have always used Mega uppers and lowers and all of them are forged sets, and all are super tight with no wobble and great machining and finish. So if you like the look of billet get it, but realize you are not getting anything other than looks honestly. If you want to pay the extra for the looks, thats great in my book, but thats all you are paying the extra for. Your right none of us will ever run these hard enough to need the differance in metal properties of billet vs forged, but to me its like paying more for something less when i buy billet. If forged lowers and uppers cost more than billet, (the price struture was switched and billet parts cost 100 instead of 250 and forged cost 250 instead of 100) you can bet your ass i would buy billet parts and not look back as the paying more for forged wouldnt make sence as the increased strength isnt needed really and honestly. So buy what you want, spend your money how you want, but be educated on your choice, not just buy into the fad. Pat |
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I hear you. Perhaps the one way a billet upper could be a little more "accurate" is that they chuck into the CNC's exactly the sam way every time, i.e there are perfectly flat surfaces to vise on, as opposed to forged uppers that may have slight variations between them all. Granted, this difference may be so slight that it can't even be measured at 100 yards.
The first thing I check on any upper is the barrel extension-to-upper fit. I want that TIGHT, tight enough that it requires effort to get a complete seat. It goes without saying that when striving for accuracy, you want perfect continuity between your optic and your muzzle, which require that tight fit. One thing I never understood is how a billet lower, or any lower costing over say $125 for that matter can be any better than one costing $350. I just don't see what's going on in a lower than can contribute to or detract from accuracy. Even if the upper/lower fit it sloppy, that fix is only an accu-wedge or a taper pin away from happening. That being said, I so far have only used billet lowers (SMOS / Larue, POF, and CTK Precision). If I were to go back and do it again, and did not care about aesthetics one bit, I would have bought a case of forged lowers at half the price or less. I am still not 100% sold on the idea that a billet part is any weaker than a forget part without seeing actual scientific test results. Theory is nice, but results are results. I do know that often billet upper designers often add extra material here and there that's simply not there on a forged part. Now one *could* be very anal and call to attention that this is not really comparing apples-to-apples, but again, test results are the only thing that will convince me. Have there been any recorded cases of an upper or lower breaking in the field or in combat? I guess if rifleman used his weapon to bash a door in or something of the like then part strength could become an issue, although almost certainly the first thing to break by a long shot would be the buffer tube, right where the threads start. I know this from experience...my friend dropped my Kodabow from a tree and that's exactly where it broke, landing stock-down. Kodabow Cheers. 
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I also disagree on the fit and finish being better on a billet gun, again see what i said about being "more in spec." As long as the forged parts are machined to the same tolerances as the billet the fit will be just as good, sure you may get one upper that is at the low end of the spec tolerances and and upper that is at the high spec range of tolerances that could cause some loose fits, but that can happen with both the billet and the forged parts. Yes billet is sexy or whatever, I love the inclusion of the trigger guards on the billet peices, and I think the Mega MaTens are amazing and I have two sets myself, but i bought them because the price was right, not because they were billet. Infact it didnt even cross my mind they were billet untill i finally looked at them and read the info. So anyways your fit and finish on a reciever is all dependant on who does the machine work and how careful they are to hold thier tolerances. I have always used Mega uppers and lowers and all of them are forged sets, and all are super tight with no wobble and great machining and finish. So if you like the look of billet get it, but realize you are not getting anything other than looks honestly. If you want to pay the extra for the looks, thats great in my book, but thats all you are paying the extra for. Your right none of us will ever run these hard enough to need the differance in metal properties of billet vs forged, but to me its like paying more for something less when i buy billet. If forged lowers and uppers cost more than billet, (the price struture was switched and billet parts cost 100 instead of 250 and forged cost 250 instead of 100) you can bet your ass i would buy billet parts and not look back as the paying more for forged wouldnt make sence as the increased strength isnt needed really and honestly. So buy what you want, spend your money how you want, but be educated on your choice, not just buy into the fad. Pat |
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You are correct, the lower does not add to accuracy in any noticable way besides what trigger is in there. Barrel, chamber and ammo are what make something accurate, that and the shooter of course.
As far as needing to see test results on the strength of a billet vs forged peice go look at any materials text book, cold working a metal adds strength and reduces ductility, there is no way around that at all. Now as you said many billet uppers and lowers add material to the final peice that is not there for a forged part. This does increase strength, but again as you pointed out its not an apples to apples comparison. There is nothing wrong with going with either part, neither is going to fail as long as they are machined properly and the blank billet or blank forging is correctly made. Many will say that forgings and castings could have inclusions and other voids that detract from thier structural integrity, which is true, however a peice of billet can include those same issues so that point is moot. If you put both a billet upper and a forged upper in a tension machine i honestly doubt you would see much if any differance in the stress strain graph when tested to failure. So again we are back to the starting point of this thread. . . if you like the look of a billet peice and the looks are worth the extra cash to you, by all means buy it. If you dont care about looks and are just looking for something that will get the job done, dont sweat it and get the cheapest forged part you can find. Pat PS Your first point about chucking the billet into the CNC may be correct, but at the same time it also depends on the tolerances again. Were the flats on the billet peice cut square to begin with, how tight is the tolerance on paralle that sort of thing. I know whenever i have machined a forging on my own the first thing i did was cut one side to perfect flatness so that i could index off it, then thats what got clamped on, so in the end it was just as good and flat as any billet block i would have had to start with and saw or cut into size. |
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For the sake or curiosity, I'd love to see a picture of a not-yet-machined forged upper and/or lower.
I think this is great dialogue...we're really getting into the foundation of the AR...worthwhile discussion about something other than what sling I should put on my next build :) Quoted:
You are correct, the lower does not add to accuracy in any noticable way besides what trigger is in there. Barrel, chamber and ammo are what make something accurate, that and the shooter of course. As far as needing to see test results on the strength of a billet vs forged peice go look at any materials text book, cold working a metal adds strength and reduces ductility, there is no way around that at all. Now as you said many billet uppers and lowers add material to the final peice that is not there for a forged part. This does increase strength, but again as you pointed out its not an apples to apples comparison. There is nothing wrong with going with either part, neither is going to fail as long as they are machined properly and the blank billet or blank forging is correctly made. Many will say that forgings and castings could have inclusions and other voids that detract from thier structural integrity, which is true, however a peice of billet can include those same issues so that point is moot. If you put both a billet upper and a forged upper in a tension machine i honestly doubt you would see much if any differance in the stress strain graph when tested to failure. So again we are back to the starting point of this thread. . . if you like the look of a billet peice and the looks are worth the extra cash to you, by all means buy it. If you dont care about looks and are just looking for something that will get the job done, dont sweat it and get the cheapest forged part you can find. Pat PS Your first point about chucking the billet into the CNC may be correct, but at the same time it also depends on the tolerances again. Were the flats on the billet peice cut square to begin with, how tight is the tolerance on paralle that sort of thing. I know whenever i have machined a forging on my own the first thing i did was cut one side to perfect flatness so that i could index off it, then thats what got clamped on, so in the end it was just as good and flat as any billet block i would have had to start with and saw or cut into size. |
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For the sake or curiosity, I'd love to see a picture of a not-yet-machined forged upper and/or lower. I think this is great dialogue...we're really getting into the foundation of the AR...worthwhile discussion about something other than what sling I should put on my next build :) like this? 
Im sure there are better images out there, hell a google image search could probably get you beter ones real quick... i just happen to remeber seeing these on Nodak's site. |
| I believe people are drawn to billet because it is different....plain and simple. It isn't any stronger or weaker than a quality forging...it just looks different. Same as when pictograms came out for selector markings or different manufacturers rollmarks, it's just different than everybody elses. The more outlandish you can make a receiver, the quicker it'll sell. The photo of the SI set a few comments back, does that really have rails mounted on the sides of the top rail?? See what I mean, someone already wants one. You can run around all day touting quality this and metal forming that and in the end, it all comes down to looks. Try a different flavor sometimes....it aint all that bad. |
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Excellent pic post. Never seen that before.
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For the sake or curiosity, I'd love to see a picture of a not-yet-machined forged upper and/or lower. I think this is great dialogue...we're really getting into the foundation of the AR...worthwhile discussion about something other than what sling I should put on my next build :) like this? http://www.nodakspud.com/images/newforging-3.jpg http://www.nodakspud.com/images/NDS-603a.JPG Im sure there are better images out there, hell a google image search could probably get you beter ones real quick... i just happen to remeber seeing these on Nodak's site. |
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I picked up a new Colt forged upper for $150 tonight at my local indoor range. Looks pretty nice. How does Colt stack up in the receiver world? I know their inspection process is probably second-to-none, to say the least. They go so far as to magnetic-flux each part they make.
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I picked up a new Colt forged upper for $150 tonight at my local indoor range. Looks pretty nice. How does Colt stack up in the receiver world? I know their inspection process is probably second-to-none, to say the least. They go so far as to magnetic-flux each part they make. Many people think Colt is the best. |
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I picked up a new Colt forged upper for $150 tonight at my local indoor range. Looks pretty nice. How does Colt stack up in the receiver world? I know their inspection process is probably second-to-none, to say the least. They go so far as to magnetic-flux each part they make. Many people think Colt is the best. I think the fairest assessment of Colt is that their quality controlis the best, and the chance of getting a dud is astronomically low. ...And who knows, maybe their uppers are "the best". |
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