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Posted: 8/7/2010 8:17:34 PM EDT
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So I've been looking to add some upgrades to my AR-15 to make it a more suitable SHTF rifle. I want to build the most reliable and rugged gun that I can with a reasonable budget.
So far I have: BCM 16" Middy BCM BCG Milspec charging handle Stag lower RRA 2-stage LPK Magpul CTR stock Troy BUIS Plastic handguards 
Next I am going to purchase a MAID grip and store a extra BCM bolt and firing pin in it. But what else could I buy that would increase my rifles reliability and ruggedness? H2 buffer? BCM Gunfighter charging handle? Free Floating handguards (DD Lite, Larue ect)? |
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2-stage triggers aren't know for their reliability, quite the opposite. Stock triggers in a quality LPK are best. Just saying. Look at a DD LPK.
With the middy upper a regular carbine buffer should be fine. H2 buffers are upgrades for carbine systems. Stock plastic handguards should be fine for you, especially if you're on a budget. I like FF rail systems, but they're not necessary for reliability. They do help accuracy, but they're not needed. Everything else should be fine. Lowers are lowers, and BCM, Troy, and Magpul are quality. You've already picked quality parts that are gonna affect reliability (BCM complete upper and BCG), get rid of the 2-stage trigger and you're fine. |
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What you have sounds good, although I'm not sure why you need a 2-stage trigger with that setup. But hey... you like what you like.
l like to keep a carry handle/sight for all of mine. It's the ultimate SHTF/KISS sight. It's rugged and requires no batteries. But you have to know how to use it. ETA: An assortment of extra small parts, springs, pins, etc. wouldn't hurt either. |
| Thanks TCBA! I was reading through a topic here where it was talking about some quality issues with RRA's 2 stage LPK's and since then I've been wanting to replace it. So, are there any type of good buffer upgrades for a mid-length gas system? H3? Or the Spikes T2-something? I know theres a debate on either or not they truly do anything, but I was watching some vids on bolt bounce and I noticed quite the difference. |
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What you have sounds good, although I'm not sure why you need a 2-stage trigger with that setup. But hey... you like what you like. l like to keep a carry handle/sight for all of mine. It's the ultimate SHTF/KISS sight. It's rugged and requires no batteries. But you have to know how to use it. ETA: An assortment of extra small parts, springs, pins, etc. wouldn't hurt either. It wasnt my first choice, but when I was building the AR I was told it would be a good way to go on another forum and I liked the price. |
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Sounds more like you're building a "tacticool" rifle, than a SHTF rifle.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I've got some tacticool shit on my rifle as well, and I love it! But most of what you've added on there isn't really all that practical or necessary for a SHTF rifle... |
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Sounds more like you're building a "tacticool" rifle, than a SHTF rifle. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I've got some tacticool shit on my rifle as well, and I love it! But most of what you've added on there isn't really all that practical or necessary for a SHTF rifle... Well right now my rifle is as KISS as they come. But if I can add some "tactcool" stuff that will improve my rifles accuracy or reliability I'll would have no problem adding it (if funds allow). But for now I am just going to focus on getting a DD LPK, a extra bolt and other small parts, and a small cleaning kit that I can fit in a small Molle pouch. Then maybe a H2 or H3 buffer and the BCM gunfighter charging handle... Thanks for the replies.. |
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I honestly wouldn't worry abot the heavier buffers. The reason to use a heavier buffer in a carbine is to increase dwell time. The longer gas system of the mid-length system already does that. I believe the concensous is that adding a heavier buffer/stronger spring will increase the lockup too much and can induce malfunctions.
I'd suggest reading some of the articles by Mike Pannone on Defense Review to gain an understanding of how exactly the relationship between buffer weights and gas systems work. One of the best things you could do for a "SHTF" rifle is get a RDS. There may still be a good deal going on Aimpoint Comp M2s for under $500 I just realized you're in CA. (I noticed the small mags.) I'd get some standard sized 30 rd mags blocked to 10 rounds. This will allow you to manipulate the magazines for reloads much better than those super short 10 rounders. Quoted:
SHTF rifle absolutely = piston gun / kit for me. Cooler, cleaner, more rugged. Good for you. Yup, a SHTF rifle HAS to have extra moving parts. There's nothing wrong with piston, but there's nothing extra right with piston guns. I'd like to own one someday, but not at the expense of my DI guns. I'm a DI fanboy because they work without the added expense. I carried an M4 for the last 16 weeks that along the way got dunked into a cement consistency bog. a quick wipeoff of the BCG with a dirty sock fixed it right up. Combine that with a lot of blank firing and virtually no cleaning, and it still went bang every time. I'm not convinced a piston AR offers any true advantage, especially when you consider that the AR in it's current state isn't meant for a piston. Think about the off-axis forces on the BCG, as well as the cost increase. |
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A good SHTF rifle should be built to be as reliable as possible. One thing you should absolutely get is the BCM SOPMOD bolt upgrade kit. This makes sure the extractor can do it's job properly and you can save your old parts for emergency use. I got some pmags since most stoppages are mag related and they have an excellent reputation - the feed lips won't bend and the cap prevents warping when stored loaded. Having a spare lower parts kit is also a good idea, along with a firing pin. If you want to splurge get a spare bolt group while you're at it. The idea is that during SHTF you will not have access to any spares other than what you already own.
The big advantage of building your own rifle is the knowledge that you can fix anything on the rifle that breaks. |
Right on. No extra moving parts, but get an optical sight that doesn't even offer the benefits of magnification for long distance relationships.  I say spend your $ on ammo and practice with irons. The exponentially cleaner and cooler guts of a piston system are a 'true advantage', IMHO, and mine has no significant wear from any 'off axis forces'. To each his own. I merely offered the OP my input based on empirical data.
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Empirical data is still just a fancy way of saying you offered an opinion based on your experience and observations.
So your opinion is that a piston gun is better. You are of course entitled to that opinion. In the context of SHTF rifle, based on my own empirical data this may not be the best choice. I assume (and could be wrong) that you do not have a complete set of spare parts for your piston system. If you do not then I would argue that it is a less than ideal SHTF solution in that you have a modified and somewhat proprietary AR-15'ish rifle. It may stil work for you and you may be 100% happy with it but it is still a modified AR. For a SHTF rifle it should be simple, quality, reliable, and be readily able to be maintained and kept running. 2 stage triggers not a good idea for a true SHTF rifle. You can do it but it is a trade off. Just like a piston upper. But then again I'm still a huge fan of A1 uppers so..... |
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For a SHTF rifle it should be simple, quality, reliable, and be readily able to be maintained and kept running.
Excellent point! That's why my 17 SHTF rifles are FALs. I keep the ARs around for the girls, and they remain DI. If someone would pay for my .308 ammo I would much prefer a FAL. |
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You are of course entitled to that opinion.
As are you, of course, as you demonstrate with your meed to express your opinion that my opinions are wrong. That's why the first amendment comes first, followed closely by the one intended to protect it. Empirical data is still just a fancy way of saying you offered an opinion based on your experience and observations.
No shit. Well, sort of. 'Empirical' is not a terribly fancy word choice. And I fail to see how having a good vocabulary is somehow negative or invalidates my opinions. In the context of SHTF rifle, based on my own empirical data this may not be the best choice. I assume (and could be wrong) that you do not have a complete set of spare parts for your piston system. If you do not then I would argue that it is a less than ideal SHTF solution in that you have a modified and somewhat proprietary AR-15'ish rifle.
You would, in fact, be incorrect about the spare parts.. For a SHTF rifle it should be simple, quality, reliable, and be readily able to be maintained and kept running.
No shit, mark two. Seems to describe a rugged, easy to clean piston gun to me. I am much more comfortable replacing a 'static' gas block, gas tube, bolt carrier with separate carrier key, and gas rings with an op rod, adjustable gas block, and spring. I can stomp the hell out of my bolt carrier and drop it back in and shoot. I wouldn't try that with a DI bolt carrier. And if my gun gets really gunked up some other way, I can dial up the gas to run it harder, or alternately, run it down to produce as little wear as possible while still providing 100% functionality. Thanks for the rousing discourse. I always love a good debate, but I'll take whatever debate I can get when a good one is not around.
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Quoted:
For a SHTF rifle it should be simple, quality, reliable, and be readily able to be maintained and kept running.
Excellent point! That's why my 17 SHTF rifles are FALs. I keep the ARs around for the girls, and they remain DI. I do have to say that that is some funny shit right there. 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
For a SHTF rifle it should be simple, quality, reliable, and be readily able to be maintained and kept running.
Excellent point! That's why my 17 SHTF rifles are FALs. I keep the ARs around for the girls, and they remain DI. I do have to say that that is some funny shit right there. Well my vocabulary does extend beyond shit, which seems to be close to the limit of yours. Again just my opinion. But it is based on empirical data. Now crack open another beer and enjoy the scenery in the trailer park. Your overall grasp of English and your reading skills aren't so good. I never once stated that you were wrong. Only that you had an opinion as did I and I didn't agree with you and stated reasons why. You see you aren't entitle to rousing discourse because you have a chip on your shoulder, are overly defensive, and are simply looking for a mine is bigger than yours contest. None of which I care about. I have formed my opinions over a range of exposure and experience and still disagree with you. However IF you have an extra piston kit or two stashed as spare parts, then your piston AR may be a fine SHTF solutuion. For most people it is not. -out |
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Wow, how about a little bit less sensitive there? No beer or trailer parks in my area, and no hostility intended from my end either. I'm sorry if you incorrectly perceived my sarcasm as such. All any of us have to offer are observations, experience, and opinions; and I do not believe that I said anything to indicate that my statements were anything but. I certainly tossed no personal insults either. I hope the caliber of your day improves for you.
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Funny how the concept of a SHTF rifle brings up so many different ways to do it. Maybe that's because there are so many different ways it could go down.
Lots of internet fantasy here, all to justify a gun purchase. My SHTF rifle would be a lever .30-30, because as we so recently experienced it, all the military calibers were off the shelf in a few short weeks. The 6.8 would stay in the house or under cover. A pistol would be required. More than that publicly exposed could lead to more attention than one needs, from scavengers or the local LEO's. If there is anything to learn from our recent duty in SWAsia, it's that the M4 only needs to be clean, well lubricated, and supplied with good ammo in Pmags. All the internals are simply milspec DI - they fire thousands of rounds in a tour. The few serious stoppages reported in the most notorious incidents all related to poor operator maintenance or use - not deficiencies in the design. Just get something and shoot it enough it's second nature. You'll be far better off than a collection of expensive parts with no direct proven combat utility. You will have shot it enough that you can't say it won't stop on you - but you will know what to do when it does. NO firearm is ever 100% reliable, the operator has to train themself to make up the difference, or he isn't. Simply owning a great pile of parts doesn't mean squat. |
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Your SHTF rifle looks pretty good, you just need to get the important items first before you customize it to your preference.
For me the important components to get first are weapon light, a good two point sling (convertible to a one point setup would be a plus), an Aimpoint red dot sight, and Mapul PMAG. I also prefer to have another complete carbine for backup and spare parts like bolt assembly, extractor kit, gas rings, firing pin, firing pin retaining pins, LPK, buffers, action spring, and CH. The BCM GF mod 4 with medium latch CH that I have is a more rugged design than the standard mil-spec version. I've had good luck with my standard carbine Vltor buffer on my midlength and I had tried a H buffer on my particular loads without any problems, you might want to also try the heavier H2 and H3 buffers on all the ammo that you use to see if they would be to your liking. |
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There are pros and cons for both the DI and the Piston AR's. I think a person needs to use whatever they have experience with. I have no experience with the modern Piston AR's (I had a lot of experience with the Rhino System, but those were many years ago and nowhere near the quality of the piston units today), so I would not be comfortable having one as a SHTF weapon. People who have experience with the modern units seem to be more than happy with them. One point I would like to make is that I have an M16 and then all of my AR's are registered as SBR's. So, I like having my main weapon as a 16 inch or 14.5 inch barreled upper, but then I have a 7.5 inch complete upper that is so small, I can put it in my backpack. That gives me a complete upper should anything go wrong. I can do that, however, because my AR carbine is registered as an SBR. The spare parts like you are doing is a great idea, but if I was firing my weapon and something went wrong, I wouldn't want to rely on my handgun while I tried to fix my AR. The short upper allows me to just switch the uppers very quickly. Not much can go wrong with the lower except hammer or trigger pn breaking or hammer J-pin breaking. So, in my lowers I use the stainless steel pins, as I have had the hammer pins break on me after a lot of firing. An even better idea, and I haven't done this yet, is to get a set of KNS non-rotating pins, which are also anti-walk pins, because I have had the hammer J-pin break and have had the hammer pin walk out while firing. KNS uses stainless steel pins, so you would have a hammer and trigger pin that would not break, and you would have the outside attachments to the pins to keep them from walking out should anything else break. The big selling point for the KNS pins is that they do not rotate, so you don't wear out the M16 lowers with the pins rotating. This is even more of a problem if you use the Colt 9mm upper as the hammer pin takes a beating and can cause the hole for that pin to become egg-shaped. But for people with semi-auto weapons, rotation of pins is not the big deal, but the stainless steel pins and anti-walk features are an asset. Back to the extra upper approach, a person could have a piston upper for the main weapon, and then they could have a DI upper as a backup. That's what I really like about the AR configuration - you can very quickly switch out the upper. I was in combat one time with an M14E2 (the full auto configuration of the M14 but with pistol grip and drop down front grip). I had the drop on the enemy and when I fired my first round, the extractor on my bolt flew off. Luckily, I had a platoon to back me up. My rifle was useless until I could get back to the unit armorer. That was the end of my days of using an M14. I guess I could have carried an extra bolt, but breaking down an M14 and replacing the bolt takes a little time.
Charles Tatum |
| For a SHTF scenario, I would think beyond AR-15, but not above it. As in, look at lots of different guns, AR platform included. I would say a lot of you choice has to do with where you live, what type of scenario you would be expecting in your area (big city nuclear target, hurricane, electromagnetic bombardment from the sun) and work around that. As a general survival gun I would give up .223 and go for an AR-10, FAL, or even a converted Saiga in .308. And don't forget about simple, reliable actions such as the previously mentioned lever action or bolt action. |
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