AR Sponsor
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:16:37 PM EDT
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I have purchased all parts for assembling my first AR15, and went with fairly high end stuff. I am surprised, and somewhat disappointed at the quality of some products. Maybe I am just having bad luck, or perhaps I am expecting too much and what I see is normal and accepted. Some of these parts are from high end manufacturers, but do not want to name brands if what I am seeing is in fact, normal. That would be unfair to the makers. Examples.
Barrel - Light scratches several inches long in direction of barrel, as well as deeper twisting scratches just forward of gas block. Looks like gas block was dragged on barrel when slid on, and then deeper scratches when turned and pushed on the slightly thicker section of barrel. For an expensive barrel, I expected more care and superior finish. Lower receiver. Trigger and hammer pin holes quite loose with standard trigger and hammer pins. I measured the holes at .1575" at least, which is not going to provide a snug fit with most available pins that are at least .002" smaller than that. The manufacturer is inspecting the receiver to make a determination. A2 stock. Spring, and buffer packed against stock, which rubbed, abraded, stock surface. Screw at rear of stock was partially stripping the threads in extension tube. Chrome bolt assembly. It is nice, but the interior is roughly machined. Not that it affects anything, but did not expect that. A tiny groove on the outside edge of one lug as well. I don't think think that is supposed to be there, but maybe so? Trigger. I inquired about this with the maker, but there is a ridge on the trigger face near the top, that is about .035" high and .220 long. Looks like flashing. Have not heard back yet from manufacturer. Magazines. Ones from CProducts looked great, but another brand for a .308 rifle looked like they came off the battlefield...after battle. Some of the parts look really nice, but others as above, are disappointing. But, maybe it is the norm. Or my eye is just overly discriminating. A notable scratch to me may be nothing or unnoticed by others. No question, I AM picky, hate nicks and scratches, and want perfection. The barrel really bugs me, but I hear that a green Scotchbrite can work wonders on brushed stainless. Still, I should not have to do this. Tell me if I am off base here. - Phil |
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you have every right to be disappointed
apparently while companies raised prices, they lowered QC, which some people justify by the "increased demand" luckily i had pretty much everything i need/want pre-obama... the few purchases i have made in the past several months i have had no issues with... |
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It may sounds funny... But I have noticed the quality of Olympic Arms degrade... I know... It isn't possible, right? Wrong. Don't get me wrong... Olympic was always crap in the shape of something that is supposed to resemble a firearm. They've gotten even worse... It is hard to believe, but it has happened. I think everyone is feeling the pressure. Quality has suffered... The important thing is you buy your stuff from a place that will take care of you if you have a problem. I got a new CMMG upper a few months ago... And it has been just sitting as a spare. I recently noticed a very unsightly blemish on the charging handle. I contacted CMMG, provided a photograph and a receipt... They apologized for the inconvenience, and are in the process of exchanging it. It pays off to do business with a good company... CMMG is one, but there are others. |
Send this back now Phil, 
Barrel - Light scratches several inches long in direction of barrel, as well as deeper twisting scratches just forward of gas block. A2 stock. Spring, and buffer packed against stock, which rubbed, abraded, stock surface. Screw at rear of stock was partially stripping the threads in extension tube. Trigger, if it is not part of a LPK, if it is part of the LPK I would just clean it up. Good luck |
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Its bad when you think most of your delays will come from parts availability issues, only to have those replaced with calls, e-mails, returns, etc. having to deal with lousy quality. One thing I learned for sure. Order parts in a way so that all the stuff arrives around the same time, so it can be inspected for fit and finish as well as functionality with other parts, and so you have time to return. I was made comfortable that all this stuff was mil-spec, all will fit, and ordered brands that stellar reputations. All should be good right? Wrong. Fussing around with this crap is costing weeks of time. I am about ready just to buy a bolt action rifle off the shelf that works, is of known quality (I can see and look at it), and have something to shoot during the summer, while the AR waits for quality functioning parts.
- Phil |
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I'm new to AR..and you guys can lump me in with the rest of the noobs who got caught up in the "beat the ban" buying. I've probably spent $3500+ on AR related stuff (never mind the ammo) over the past few months, and I'm definitely not impressed. I am a mechanical engineer and have worked in manufacturing of high precision products. I've dabbled in building high-precision, high horsepower, high dollar race car engines, and I have machined and built things from scratch. I have been around high precision parts and machinery my entire career.
I haven't handled all available ARs, but from the looks of the machining and castings of what I've seen, the rifles or parts should be selling for 1/2 what the manufactures are suggesting. The parts are just not that precise and not that high quality. The AR15 design is old and one would think that the manufacturers would have perfected the parts by now using modern manufacturing practices. An AR, esp. one of the high end ones that command $1500+ in a normal market, should operate like a Swiss watch with no play or slop in any of the parts unless a loose fit is required for dependable operation in the field. I suppose the "mil spec" has something to do with the lack of precision, but that doesn't mean a manufacturer can't exceed it with better parts and better parts fitment. It was embarrassing when my wife saw one of my rifles the other day and her comment was, "it looks like it's made of plastic." And that was after I had already installed some after market parts to get rid of the clunky parts! Not what I wanted to hear about my $1300+ rifle. Having said that I'll keep my ARs, but like the OP alluded to I'm probably better off buying a high quality bolt action rifle with my money. Before you guys chase me off the forum....I have to say that I see this lack of quality in other firearms too, esp. handguns. Some high priced brands just aren't that great when you compare the precision of parts to that of other products in other industries. I'm probably being too anal or asking too much... To the OP (Phil) - I'd hold out until you get parts back to you that meet your expectations. For what the parts cost, they should be as advertised in look and function! If I had to do it all over again, I'd do what you're doing....build one from the best parts...and not accept anything less. |
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I can't speak for the OP, but the issue isn't just that the parts work...but that they are high quality and have the precision that the high prices would lead on to expect.
Even some of the crappiest rifles I looked at worked...but so did a Ford Pinto...but compared to a German car made in the same era, the German car had better fitting parts manufactured to with greater quality, has better parts durability and the German car performed so much better. (Sorry I'm a German cars guy) With CNC machines these days and better manufacturing processes, we should not be seeing rough castings and poor parts fitment. If all the AR parts no matter the manufacturers are built to the same drawing dimensions, there should be no issues with mix matching parts or parts that get delivered with scratches and dings. I actually received a buffer tube (MFR not to be named) that had a chip the width of my thumb nail off the rear of the tube. It was manufactured and shipped to the vendor that way. The anodizing was done on it despite the defect. It was probably the end of the rod stock that should have been pitched, but they machined it anyway and the QC let it proceed to the anodizing stage. |
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I can't speak for the OP, but the issue isn't just that the parts work...but that they are high quality and have the precision that the high prices would lead on to expect. Even some of the crappiest rifles I looked at worked...but so did a Ford Pinto...but compared to a German car made in the same era, the German car had better fitting parts manufactured to with greater quality, has better parts durability and the German car performed so much better. (Sorry I'm a German cars guy) Exactly. I drive a BMW M3 and having worked on it, you really begin to appreciate where the money is. The waterpump does not use a gasket..it uses an O-ring. Ordinarily, a pain to pull out of the face of the engine block, but not with two threaded holes, using two of the four pump mounting bolts, that when screwed in, hit the block and "extract" the pump out of the block. Nice. Lots of stuff like that. Oil filter access so easy, I could do it in a white tuxedo and not get a drop on me. Well machined parts, even ones, under the hood, you never see. The barrel is visible for all to see, so at least don't let some idiot push on the gas block dragging along the barrel, and then twist it on while there is grit on the barrel or interior bore of the block! Is is it really too much to expect to wipe down the barrel and gas block? Or maybe a protective sock on the barrel to protect it from the gas block install? Or at least make sure that the trigger face is devoid of flashing. I mean, is there ANY quality control? - Phil |
| Your timing is just really bad. QC takes a shit when the major concern is filling backorders EVERY single company is experiencing. Imagine going to work and realizing a customer just placed and order and it may not ship for over a year? That really sucks and I almost feel for them there. |
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Right now there are a lot of first time buyers who don't know what to look for and people who are willing to overlook small
defects just to get another AR in their safe. Unfortunately if it weren't for their desperation we probably wouldn't be seeing a lot of the issues we are nowadays. I can't even imagine the pressure a lot of the manufacturers are under right now to meet deadlines. Especially if the people and businesses they are supplying to aren't maintaining QA and have the option to take their business elsewhere. I think this is kinda what happened with some of the magazine manufacturers prior to the AWB. Certain name brands have never recovered their reputation from the slew of shitty magazines they dumped on the market despite the fact that they do make functional magazines nowadays. |
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I said I would get back on what happened when I contacted various suppliers on quality problems with their parts. Overall grades are on vendor response to problem and end result.
Barrel: I returned it and the maker cleaned it up and it looks MUCH better. Somewhat shinier than it was (and they called me to advise of this before shipping), but it looks really good. This time it was packaged in bullet proof packaging. Well done. Overall grade: A Trigger: After one initial snafu on getting a replacement trigger, the trigger was replaced. It looks to be fine, but am suspect that an "oversize" trigger pin is not oversize at all. This may be a problem. Seems to be a bit of a disconnect between management and shop. Overall grade (so far): C Lower Receiver: Returned, long delay for a response, sent me back a new receiver that has trigger and hammer pin holes just as loose as the original (which they admitted had oversize pin holes - and don't know how it happened). Did not follow instructions on NOT to install some lower parts kit components. The receiver has some marks on it that the original didn't. Ready to throw this thing out the window and definitely use another brand. Overall grade: F - Phil |
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I'm new to AR..and you guys can lump me in with the rest of the noobs who got caught up in the "beat the ban" buying. I've probably spent $3500+ on AR related stuff (never mind the ammo) over the past few months, and I'm definitely not impressed. I am a mechanical engineer and have worked in manufacturing of high precision products. I've dabbled in building high-precision, high horsepower, high dollar race car engines, and I have machined and built things from scratch. I have been around high precision parts and machinery my entire career. i also come from a precision automotive machining background, i've machined for cummins and dodge and subaru, including taking lumps of iron off a skid from a foundry through 10 hours of machining and built into a complete $19,000 warrantied engine...when i first got into AR's I was initially put off by some of this, things fitting loose and slight gaps between receivers, etc. the way i saw it is in the machining world, usually a visual gap is means something is way out of spec, if you can see it you probably don't even have to measure it to know its no good. a friend reassured me that my home built rifle was way tighter than his $1200 factory bushmaster however i came to learn quickly thats just not how it works with these rifles...if it weren't for the specs being the way they were you would have serious issues with trying to interchange parts between manufacturers. it would be nicer if the specs were alot tighter but it would drive prices through the roof and you would probably run into alot of parts that didnt mesh well together, even though the perceived tightness of the weapon was better its easy to forget the business end, even if it is a necessary evil. they have alot of overhead to cover, and at a time like this ramping up production while maintaining quality is always difficult, while trying to keep the orders from dropping off at the same time. if you want something with fitment like a high end car buy high end billet components for twice as much money. i think $3500 would built two premium rifles anyone would be proud to say they assembled. |
During the rush I got lucky and got a lower parts kits from a recommended vendor and board sponsor. When it arrived it contained the cheesiest mag release button I've seen in my life. Rounded off and mirror shiny black it looks more at home on a Walmart toy than a real rifle. I suppose they were in a hurry to throw kits together at the time but, WOW, that release button took some special effort to make.  Now that things have calmed down I'll contact the vendor about it. FWIW it's not DPMS.
It is funny how we make excuses for poor quality. As long as we do, we'll continue to get more of the same. The US auto industry gave up a large chunk of the market (permanently) with poor quality and lack of interest in the consumer during the late 70's/early 80's. On a smaller scale the AR market might repeat this history, like armalite. |
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Wow! And you didn't just buy a Colt? I should have said HK for all the German engineering aficionados. Exactly. I drive a BMW M3 and having worked on it, you really begin to appreciate where the money is. 
yup, you get what you pay for! in the auto world theres an old saying, "cheap, reliable, fast...pick two" not to far off in this case either...the funny thing is i've heard alot of socom units are going back to colts after having problems with HK's breaking in the field |
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I'd like to know what components you ordered...also, you say the components weren't functional, maybe I missed this, but if you didn't assemble and test fire how would you know what was functional and what was not?
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Wow! And you didn't just buy a Colt? I should have said HK for all the German engineering aficionados. Exactly. I drive a BMW M3 and having worked on it, you really begin to appreciate where the money is.
No. His head would have exploded because of a minute scratch or ding on the lower receiver. |
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Wow thats amazing all those problems for high end.I been ordering a lot of stuff lately and everything has been outstanding quality and some severe air candy.
RRA lower from Coleman Tyler, Numerous tools accessories from Brownells, PK Firearms a Complete RRA upper,A2 Stock, grips,LPK's. Larue Mounts,CMMG Aimpoint,GG&G Mounts, Vickers Slings,44Mag magazines.Probably more but everything is perfect.Real happy BRD guy here! |
| as a steelworker i am in 100% agreement with you. it makes one want to buy a bridgeport and start manufacturing parts that DO exceed "mil-spec". i built on the cheap and my carbine is just as reliable as the colts we were issued in the service. (which were finicky at best.) though the part snobs and armchair commandos scoff at my budget m4, i out shoot the guy next to me at the range with his $2000 in parts. the excuse that the obama gun scare caused quality control to suffer is asinine because high end parts makers should have achieved tighter tolerances than "mil-spec" from the get go. the colts that our service personal haven't really been improved upon since their kinks were ironed out in the 60's. (maybe extended feedramps could be viewed as one.) why should they? uncle sam is good business. but in the civilian market, where the demands are higher and they are willing to pay for those higher demands, these parts manufacturer should invest little into r&d. |
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I said I would get back on what happened when I contacted various suppliers on quality problems with their parts. Overall grades are on vendor response to problem and end result. Barrel: I returned it and the maker cleaned it up and it looks MUCH better. Somewhat shinier than it was (and they called me to advise of this before shipping), but it looks really good. This time it was packaged in bullet proof packaging. Well done. Overall grade: A Trigger: After one initial snafu on getting a replacement trigger, the trigger was replaced. It looks to be fine, but am suspect that an "oversize" trigger pin is not oversize at all. This may be a problem. Seems to be a bit of a disconnect between management and shop. Overall grade (so far): C Lower Receiver: Returned, long delay for a response, sent me back a new receiver that has trigger and hammer pin holes just as loose as the original (which they admitted had oversize pin holes - and don't know how it happened). Did not follow instructions on NOT to install some lower parts kit components. The receiver has some marks on it that the original didn't. Ready to throw this thing out the window and definitely use another brand. Overall grade: F - Phil Phil, who are these manufacturers? |
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I can relate as after buying a Noveske N4 basic upper around 6/08 (long before the elections) I was appalled at the carelessness taken during the assembly process of this upper!
The upper had a large cosmetic flaw (missing finish) on the left side and should have been sold as a blem (the noveske blemmed lower as of late display much less finish loss then my upper did). When I installed the upper on my home built Noveske lower and cycled the action the first thing I noticed was that the bolt/carrier would not go into battery on their own (had to use the FA). I thought WOW, this thing feels kinda tight for my liking. On inspection I noticed that the gas tube was BENT to the right side at about a 10 degree angle! I thought, WTF. Now I feel I have to inspect the whole thing with a fine tooth comb so I remove the bolt/carrier group and check all the parts, guess what,........THE FIRING PIN is bent! I thought I was seeing things so I chucked it up in my drill press and sure enough it's bent (about 5 degrees). It still worked but it would bind against the bolt a little when it protruded the bolt face. The barrel had numerous scratches, mostly around the front sight base and flash suppressor area (assembly areas). Now I'm WTF (again) and remove the M4 handguards to check and see if the barrel nut is tight (about the only other thing the installer/monkey at Noveske did to this upper) and fortunately the barrel was tight (the torque wrench clicked off at 45lbs with no movement) and the alignment was fine (the only thing done with care so far). I replaced the original M4 handguards with a nice Carbine set I had and thought the M4's would be easy to unload/sell but when I actually looked them over there was a HUDGE GOUGE going the entire length if the lower handguard that ruined any resale value! It looked like it was scraped across something sharp. Since the upper and lower were such a good fit (no movement/easy removal of take down pins) I decided I could live with the flaws so long as it performed well. After replacing the firing pin with a Colt spare part and straightening the gas tube I took it to the range and shot the hell out of it. This is the most accurate 14.5" barrel I own to date and for some strange reason I have a hard time missing what I shoot at or producing the groups I think It's capable of! I love this upper but I cannot, and will not forgive Noveske for their carelessness in assembly and attention to (NO) detail. The only thing I would ever consider buying from them again would be a barrel assembly and nothing more |
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I bought parts for my rifle just after the election. Most of the stuff I bought had sat on the shelf prior to the election and was not rushed out to meet demand. But what I received was not very impressive. In fact, every time I inspect my rifle I find annoying blemishes, tooling marks, and poor machining. The rifle works - so I can't really complain - but the next rifle I build will include inspection by myself on every part. Things I noticed:
- Poor finish on upper receiver. There is a matte "teflon" finish on this rifle and it is blotchy. - Irregular octagonal machining on the part of the charging handle that meets the back of the upper receiver. - Bumpy, uneven machining on the front exterior of the magazine well. - Rough machining on the rear interior of the bolt carrier assembly. - Incredibly rough trigger pull. It's a standard GI trigger, but it feels like a 10 lb, 2-stage, square peg in a round hole. - Flashing and dents on the receiver picatinny rails. ETA: this rifle was built entirely of parts from one manufacturer with a good reputation on this board. |
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Good morning guys.
Lots of great and interesting information in this post, yet, lots of information is missing due to people not wanting to bring down the wrath of the people who feel that money buys perfection and money demands respect and bragging rights. If these people's tastes are questioned and their financial choises questioned they go balistic and use their sharply honed toungues to slash anyone who dares question high-end builders. After my very first AR build I'm only kicking myself over just one sing part I'd wished I'd researched a bit further to save 12 whole bucks. People's prior posts in this thead (esp. the original poster) have, in most instanses, omitted manufacturers names due to not having the best of luck with their product(s). Prices have also been kept hush hush. I'm going out on a limb here and only because I've never been scared of hights and list all of the parts that went into my beloved Frankenrifle. I'll give exact costs and manufacturers names as well as suppliers names. I'll start at the muzzel flash hider and end the buttstock. I'll grade the product A-F and the customer service A-F. 1.) DPMS A2 style flash hider $6.00 and crush washer $2.00. Product grade = A. Midway USA was the supplier and cust. surv. = A 2.) Model 1 Sales 16" chrome moly 1:9 twist HBAR barrel assembly with A2 style front sight tower (no sight post, detent, spring or sling mount included) $145.00. This barrel produces consistantly tight (sub 1" with Fiocci ammo) 100 yard groups and with standard DPMS trigger. Barrel product grade = A. Midway USA supplied this barrel and their back order system drove me crazy but a short two week wait bumped them up from a C to a final cust. surv. grade = B 3.) DPMS A2 front post $2.49, detent $1.49, and spring $1.19. Product grade = A. Midway USA cust. surv. = A. 4.) DSArms A3 style upper receiver $79.97. Perfect fit and finish matched to Essential Arms lower perfectly. Product grade = A. AIM Surplus was the supplier and $.01 shipping earns them an A. 5.) Essential Arms lower receiver $105.00. Nice tough coat finish. No machining marks. Fit to upper perfect, all pins fit perfect. Grade = A. Essential was easy to reach on the phone and shipped same day to my dealer. Cust. serv. = A. 6.) Rock River Arms complete bolt carrier group $130.00. Chromed interior, functions flawlessly. Some might say the gas key screws aren't properly staked, but I take RRA at their word when they say that beating the living hell out of keys is foolish. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus supplied the bcg and their website is great. Cust. surv. grade = A. 7.) Model 1 Sales Carbine length hand guards with heat shields $15.00 Product grade = A. Midway USA grade = A. 8.) DPMS carbine length gas tube with pin $10.00. Fit and functions perfectly. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. 9.) DPMS delta pack complete $9.99. Fit and fuctions perfect. Product grade = A. Midway USA = A. 10.) DPMS dust cover assembly complete with pin, spring, and c-clip $7.00. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. 11.) DPMS standard lower parts kit $60.00. Packed loose in bag but everything was there. Trigger was bad but not as bad as some make it out to be. A match grade trigger is in Frankenrifle's future. All parts fit and functioned as expected. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. 12.) DPMS complete teardrop forward assist assembly $10.00. Perfect fit and function. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. 13.) Unknown manufacturer standard charging handle assembly $15.00. Perfect fit and function. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. 14.) Model 1 Sales 4 position collapsable buttstock complete assembly with tube, buffer, and spring $42.00. Perfect fit and function. I only wish I'd looked closer and first at JSE Surplus and saved myself $12.00 for the same stock. Product grade = A. Midway USA = A. 15.) UTG (Leepers) adjustable rear sight $25.00. Fit, finish, and function are all perfect. Why anyone would spend houndreds of dollars for a sighting sysytem that achieves the exact same purpose is beyond me. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. I've only put 100 rounds through Frank to date but have experienced zero failures of any kind and really don't expect anything but rugged reliability for the rest my shooting years and I'm only 41. 
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Disclaimer: the following comments reflect my opinion and my opinion only, and I do not intend to flame, piss off, or otherwise offend anyone with my comments.
OK, given that the rifle has not failed you mechanically, I have to ask a question here. What did you buy the rifle for? If you actually intend to shoot and train with it, dings, scratches, and scuffs will happen. I can tell you that military weapons are not visually pleasing in that regard almost as soon as they leave the box, because we use them. Now if you bought it to keep in your safe and pull it out to admire it once in a while, than I would be quite upset as well. Don't get the wrong idea though, poor quality ticks me off as much as the next guy, but given the times we live in, as long as it works, I wouldn't grumble too much. And just my opinion here regarding the plastic rifle comment earlier, you have an AR, and hence that's how they look. If you want something that looks like it's made with iron and wood, get an M1 or an M14 clone, or even an AK. |
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6.) Rock River Arms complete bolt carrier group $130.00. Chromed interior, functions flawlessly. Some might say the gas key screws aren't properly staked, but I take RRA at their word when they say that beating the living hell out of keys is foolish. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus supplied the bcg and their website is great. Cust. surv. grade = A. I guess the military, with its hundreds of thousands of properly staked AR type weapons, is foolish. Quoted:
11.) DPMS standard lower parts kit $60.00. Packed loose in bag but everything was there. Trigger was bad but not as bad as some make it out to be. A match grade trigger is in Frankenrifle's future. All parts fit and functioned as expected. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. You're lucky. I have had 20 DPMS LPKs and some were good, some were not. Quoted:
13.) Unknown manufacturer standard charging handle assembly $15.00. Perfect fit and function. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. 
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14.) Model 1 Sales 4 position collapsable buttstock complete assembly with tube, buffer, and spring $42.00. Perfect fit and function. I only wish I'd looked closer and first at JSE Surplus and saved myself $12.00 for the same stock. Product grade = A. Midway USA = A. I've broken several of these. Quoted:
15.) UTG (Leepers) adjustable rear sight $25.00. Fit, finish, and function are all perfect. Why anyone would spend houndreds of dollars for a sighting sysytem that achieves the exact same purpose is beyond me. Product grade = A. JSE Surplus = A. Made in China. Yes, why would anyone purchase a quality, made in America sight when they can buy a low quality pot metal imitation made by slave labor in China. Quoted:
I've only put 100 rounds through Frank to date but have experienced zero failures of any kind and really don't expect anything but rugged reliability for the rest my shooting years and I'm only 41. 100 rounds is nothing. When you hit 1000 rounds in a day, then you will know that your rifle is truly reliable. I don't mean to offend you, but what works for you as a weekend plinker may not work for someone who asks more of their rifle. |
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Good evening guys.
And to 87GN, no offense taken. I'm an unabashed NOOB to ARs and to this forum and out of the thousands of people I've knowingly and unknowingly interacted with here at AR15.COM I've rarely been offended (I think those few don't represent the 99.999% of us on here seeking knowledge and passing on learned lessons. I honestly think that those rare instances were from posters who were intoxicated or off their meds.). This forum has been a great learning experience and quite a few laughs as well. Thanks to all. I hear where you're coming from with weekend plinker vs. shooters who put thousands of rounds down range in days. But if look at threads dedicated to Model 1 Sales shooters you'll see many people's M1S rifles who've surpassed Colt 6920s during those 3,000 round days in both reliability and accuracy. And you'll also see many more threads from the various brands i.e. DPMS, RRA, and Del-Ton to name just a few with similar stories of fellow shooters at the shoot helping out Colt owners with spare parts. The whole "staking" issue has been beaten to death in many many other threads. The people at RRA state that failures of the gas keys occur about 1 per 10,000 units. And again someone who shoots litteraly hundreds of different ARs and puts millions of rounds through them every year, year after year, will be able to tell stories of failures. But what's the gas key failure rate of a Colt 6920 or a Noveske N4 bolt? Yes, the UTG rear sight was made in China. And most of the reviewers at Amazon and Midway gave my $25.00 sight very high praise, including one fellow who put 2500 rounds under it in one day at a tactical training shoot. If an American firm produced a similar product at a similar price I'd have been happy to have given them my hard earned $25.00. My WW I I vet grandfather was outraged when he learned that the seats in his beloved Buick were manufactured in Korea and he never did find a brand without foriegn parts in it. If DPMS can manufacture a complete lower parts kit with its dozens of itty-bitty little, yet highly intricuit parts for a retail price of about $58.00 then I'm quite sure they don't need to charge us $100.00 for their adjustable rear sight. I'm all for buying American, but, I don't like being ripped off. If you've broken several of Model 1 Sales' collapsible stocks would you mind terribly telling me how, so that I might avoid such breakage with mine? And the original poster's question to all of us in the AR arena was if he was being too picky about parts that he'd paid a lot of money for and was expecting better quality in return. My only advice would be that If you are not happy with your product then send it back. Most every parts supplier colorfully displayed above here as AR15.COM sponsors and around the world are all top notch with customer service. Here's to safe and happy shooting.
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Sorry man, but when the cards are down, at carbine courses, Colt and other top notch guns do have lower failure rates than brands like DPMS, RRA, etc. All you have to do is ask someone who teaches carbine courses. Pat Rogers is on here all the time reinforcing the mantra that the pricier guns break less. He'll tell you that guns without properly staked BCGs and good bolts fail and break more. I would like to see the "many" threads where M1S owners put 3000 failure free rounds through their rifles in a day when Colts were breaking.
Parts made in China are cheaper for a reason. There is no way that anyone making products in the US can compete with Chinese products on price alone. This is simple economics and I can't believe that you would suggest that. However, I have seen enough broken Chinese made AR parts to stay away from them permanently. I've also learned that people reviewing products on Amazon are liars. By the way, that was a Model 1 Sales charging handle, bent before the first round was fired out of the rifle. The $40 buttstocks were bent/broken in malfunction clearing and/or normal use. It is a design flaw. The point that you and the OP miss is that quality in the AR world does not mean avoiding tiny scratches on the barrel. One manufacturer - the durability of his products has never been questioned on this forum, because of strict adherence to QC standards - has openly said that if you want a pretty gun, buy someone else's product. I would happily take that scratched barrel if I knew that the chamber was properly reamed, the bore was chrome lined and the twist rate will stabilize the bullets I shoot. |
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christ, i feel lucky after reading some of this. my ar was built with ALL post-election parts as far as i know, it's possible my LPK or my stock had been on a shelf, but i purchased them all after the fact. i've only put about 200 rounds through it due to lack of ammo and frankly lack of money for building the AR. having said that, i've run into NO problems so far with any of my parts i have bought. everything fit together perfectly, functioned perfectly when i tested it what i could, no issues with finish. simply put i just can't complain. here is what i have so far, i'm going to get some more pics up soon, my grip just came in today and i'd like to get my trigger guard, sling, and my TLR-1 mounted before doing any fancy photos.
BCM 16" mid-length upper with standard FSB BCM F/A BCG BCM forged charging handle Troy rear folding BUIS Cavalry Arms C8 handguards Spikes ST-15 lower with LPK installed, i believe it's DPMS but not sure Spikes ST-T2 buffer Stag mil-spec stock kit minus actual stock (it was what was in stock at the time) KNS Gen 2 anti-roll pins Magpul CTR stock Magpul MIAD grip 2 x Magpul Windowed Pmag's Revision M (i know, 2 isn't cutting it, i'm trying to get only new ones) future upgrades: Magpul trigger guard, YHM 5C2 flash hider, TLR-1, sling, and last but not least, Trijicon ACOG TA31H some time around the apocalypse 
then i can start my next build 
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Good evening all.
Good evening and welcome to the thread s3neo. Looking forward to the pics. And to 87GN's last posts regaurding my puchase of a $25.00, Chinese made, rear sight. You hoped that I'd not take offense at your replies and I still don't, but, you are begining to creep me out juuust a bit. In this great and wonderful country of ours we have universal secret ballot voting system that somehow saddled us with the politicians who've let "Tree Huggers," "Ambulance Chasers," and the "Socialist Media" take charge. Majority rules and that's what have given the Chinese a foothold into our consumer goods gold mine of a market. I also know enough about how goods flow through this country having driven a truck for 12 years. I've seen Chinese products repackaged and shipped labled "Made in the U.S.A." I've seen our factories' labor force change to illegal alliens within a decade. I've been treated like crap by corporate giants like Wal-Mart and tiny startup machine shops alike. I've been behind the seens up close and personal with thousands of manufacturers all over the North American continent and the vast majority have treated its pick-up and delivery drivers like scum. If you think the Chinese labor force is made up of slave labor then you should look at some of the working conditions at grocery wearhouses in New Jersey. Yeh, I bought a $25.00 Chinese sight so that I could have more money to spend on fun ammo, and I'd do it again, and again, and again, and again. I asked you (87GN) how you had broken several of Model 1 Sales' collapsible stocks and you weren't as clear as I'd hoped describing how you broke them. Did you drop them, slam them hard against a hard surface, fall on them hard? I know, I know! I'm an ignorant NOOB to ARs and I'm not worthy of even asking someone such as yourself, who've put trillions of rounds down range through thousands of rifles but how do you break a buttstock clearing a jamb? How do you bend a buttstock during normal use? I know, I know you've probably lost track of the spacifics but you did state that Model 1 Sales' buttstocks had a design flaw. Maybe my cheap ass Model 1 Sales stock has the exact same flaw but I'm too stupid to see it. Any spacifics on the design flaw so that I might know what to look for? And again to 87GN, you stated that Amazon product reviewers were liars. Are ALL product reviewers liars? Or just the ones giving good reviews to products you hold in contempt?  
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The threads on M1S (commercial spec) receiver extension tubes are shallower than on a quality mil spec tube. Ergo, they don't engage the receiver as well. This goes for all commercial spec tubes, but the M1S tubes are some of the worst. What do you expect? You buy the cheapest thing you can find...
While "mortaring" the weapon, that is, slamming the butt of the weapon down on the ground while pulling back on the charging handle, I have completely wrecked one M1S RET and partially damaged another. I was mortaring the weapon because that is the proper method of clearing a stuck case. I had stuck cases because I bought cheap ARs that had improperly cut chambers. Also, I don't see the point of your diatribe about US made stuff, if you're suggesting that AR-15 accessories marked "Made in USA" are actually made in China, as long as you buy from a reputable vendor, you are incorrect. Any product reviewer on Amazon who supposedly has enough ammo to buy 2,500 rounds of 5.56 but can't afford a quality rear sight has a few screws loose, in my book. Oh, and I'd like to see the threads where an M1S shooter put 3k downrange in one day and helped out a Colt owner who had problems. |
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The threads on M1S (commercial spec) receiver extension tubes are shallower than on a quality mil spec tube. Ergo, they don't engage the receiver as well. This goes for all commercial spec tubes, but the M1S tubes are some of the worst. What do you expect? You buy the cheapest thing you can find... . It is true that the threads are shallower (at least from the drawings I have seen from one manufacturer), but I doubt this has any bearing on strength, at least as it pertains to the ability of the reciever extension to withstand the force of "mortaring". Flattening off the tops of threads does not mean a poor engagement, it just means easier threading when there are imperfections and or dust/dirt present. I would really like to see you drive the threads through a receiver by 'mortaring' the gun, or by beating on it with a sledge hammer for that matter. You would mangle the extension and/or receiver before you got the threads to fail. Furthermore, commercial extensions are thicker than mil spec extensions......so which one is really stronger??? –– Actually, I don't think there is any consensus that either one is stronger or better. It is a matter of preference and compatibility with stock assemblies. |
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Unfortunately, you are incorrect.
What is a Mil-Spec Tube? This has to be the most common question. A milspec tube is just as the name implies, made to the specifications of the technical data package (tdp). The biggest concern is the diameter of the tube, the milspec part has a diameter of ~1.147, the thread diameter is 1.1875
So the threads are bigger, are they rolled in? originally the threads were cut in with a regular old lathe. The narrower body section of the tube is reduced by cutting with a concave shaped cutter that "shaves" the metal down, sort of like a plane; occasionally you can see the result of this technique by two "lines" that run the length of the reduced section at ten and two o'clock. Current techniques do include rolling the threads in. So what are tubes that are not Mil-Spec? During the original cloning of the military AR, the first commercial receiver extension tubes were made from an extrusion, the threads lathe cut and the body was not reduced. The common size for this is 1.170 and that has became the de facto standard for after market tubes. So commercial tubes are bigger, are they stronger? No, the problem with them is that the threaded section is also 1.170, so the threads are not cut to full "height" and do not fully engage the threads in the receiver. The few commercial tubes that I have seen fail, pulled the threads out of the receiver. Are there any other concerns with after market tubes? Well, there is really no set standard for size, so they can vary by manufacturer and even from lot to lot –– you can get combinations of after market parts that are tight or loose. Some of them are made with extrusions with an end plug welded in, the quality of the welding can run from pretty solid to pretty poor. Are those the only two sizes? No, some manufacturers have come out with systems that do not use either the milspec or the aftermarket tube size... The early Choate stock is one example of a proprietory tube. So what fits what? Milspec tubes work with stocks from Colt, Vltor, CMT, LMT/Crane, etc. After market tubes work with RRA, BM, DPMS, etc. A larger, after market stock will fit on a milspec tube, but will be loose and rattle –– a milsec stock will usually not fit on an after market tube... without a hammer. Hey! My new Mil-Spec tube is too long? Some newer tubes made for the "enhanced" M4 stock are a little longer and have a small taper to the back to match the profile of the stock butt. It should not effect the use of a Mil-Spec stock however. |
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One of these days I'm going to do a nice loooong write up on some of this stuff. For now. Parts are not even close to all created equal. IMO Bushmaster and RRA level parts are the bare minimum 'tier' components anyone should bother spending money on. Just test the parts before relying on them and have spares. You always should do that even with the best parts but you're more likely to catch something that RRA goofed, than LMT.
Maineyack you're new and sorry to say but probably wouldn't know the difference between a good part and a bad part if you held them up side by side. There's a lot of important metallurgy, manufacturing processes, and machining tolerances that the casual observer would never know to look for. It's like if my wife was used car shopping, she'd pick the one with the nicest paint job. Not terribly important if the motor is burning a quart of oil a week. |
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Wow! And you didn't just buy a Colt? I should have said HK for all the German engineering aficionados. Exactly. I drive a BMW M3 and having worked on it, you really begin to appreciate where the money is.
We are limited in California to what we can buy. Colt isn't one of them. - Phil |
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I said I would get back on what happened when I contacted various suppliers on quality problems with their parts. Overall grades are on vendor response to problem and end result. Barrel: I returned it and the maker cleaned it up and it looks MUCH better. Somewhat shinier than it was (and they called me to advise of this before shipping), but it looks really good. This time it was packaged in bullet proof packaging. Well done. Overall grade: A Trigger: After one initial snafu on getting a replacement trigger, the trigger was replaced. It looks to be fine, but am suspect that an "oversize" trigger pin is not oversize at all. This may be a problem. Seems to be a bit of a disconnect between management and shop. Overall grade (so far): C Lower Receiver: Returned, long delay for a response, sent me back a new receiver that has trigger and hammer pin holes just as loose as the original (which they admitted had oversize pin holes - and don't know how it happened). Did not follow instructions on NOT to install some lower parts kit components. The receiver has some marks on it that the original didn't. Ready to throw this thing out the window and definitely use another brand. Overall grade: F - Phil Phil, who are these manufacturers? Let me gather up all the outcomes of my dealings with manufacturers, and I can say something more. - Phil |
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Disclaimer: the following comments reflect my opinion and my opinion only, and I do not intend to flame, piss off, or otherwise offend anyone with my comments. OK, given that the rifle has not failed you mechanically, I have to ask a question here. What did you buy the rifle for? If you actually intend to shoot and train with it, dings, scratches, and scuffs will happen. Not offended or pissed off, but an explanation. I bought the rifle to shoot. I do not subscribe to the notion that use of a rifle, or most things for that matter, results in inevitable scratches, scuffs, nicks, etc, except where it is truly inevitable ( i.e., rock chips in car windshield). I exercise careful handling and care, and it shows on what I own, including cars, motorcycles, tools, and other things that are "used". Given that, I want to start out with something that is not already banged up fresh out of the package from the manufacturer. - Phil |
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Did you know that the pins are held in place by spring tension after assembly?
Did you know that a gas block that fights tightly on a barrel will leave marks as it is moved into place? A tight fitting gas block is a good thing. If you wanted a rifle that would live up to your "M3" standards, maybe you should have had a maker like Larue, POF, or MSTN build one for you. I mean, you wouldn't drive a car you built yourself and expect it to outclass your M3 would you? The same should be said for a rifle. How can you expect parts from multiple, unrelated sources, to fit with little to no clearance in a swiss watch-like manner? |
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The cars I build do exceed M3s in performance, and eventhough I buy parts from different manufacturers (I still expect them to fit as well or better than the factory parts. I pay for good aftermarket parts and I expect too get what I pay for. And that's what the OP wants. High quality parts and service for high price items. We should all expect that. There is to much making excuses for the manufacturers and retailers. And worst that they would us the high demand as an excuse while charging more because of the demand! Brand loyalty is what leads to complacent manufactures and retailers! Case in point the recent rash of Colt sub-quality.
We sure as hell do buy our guns to shoot but why does that mean we have to accept defects and blems before the first round down te barrrel? Bsides all that an AR15 is a very simple machine. It's not like it is made of hundreds of parts that have to all work together. The next time those of you who defend blems and defects go out to buy a car or appliance, ask the sales guy to give it a good kick and run a tool across the finish so you feel like it is a properly use appliance. |
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The cars I build do exceed M3s in performance, and eventhough I buy parts from different manufacturers (I still expect them to fit as well or better than the factory parts. I pay for good aftermarket parts and I expect too get what I pay for. And that's what the OP wants. High quality parts and service for high price items. We should all expect that. There is to much making excuses for the manufacturers and retailers. And worst that they would us the high demand as an excuse while charging more because of the demand! Brand loyalty is what leads to complacent manufactures and retailers! Case in point the recent rash of Colt sub-quality. We sure as hell do buy our guns to shoot but why does that mean we have to accept defects and blems before the first round down te barrrel? Bsides all that an AR15 is a very simple machine. It's not like it is made of hundreds of parts that have to all work together. The next time those of you who defend blems and defects go out to buy a car or appliance, ask the sales guy to give it a good kick and run a tool across the finish so you feel like it is a properly use appliance. Your point is lost here because you are comparing apples to oranges. Most people here often do. Certain manufacturers are not really concerned with superficial appearances. Colt and BCM come to mind. But by all means please list all the brands that are better than BCM. |
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We sure as hell do buy our guns to shoot but why does that mean we have to accept defects and blems before the first round down te barrrel?
The next time those of you who defend blems and defects go out to buy a car or appliance, ask the sales guy to give it a good kick and run a tool across the finish so you feel like it is a properly use appliance. If some brand like Olympic came out of the box like that, there'd be pages of commentary by the Couch Commandos about "crap, garbage, barf, out of spec, blah, blah blah, etc, etc". But if one of the "holy brands" looks like feces then it's A-okay and the excuse making machine swings into action on why the buyer should accept the defects. Amazing phenomenon. I'd love to sell some people around here a "new" car because I wouldn't have to worry about how it looked or even if it started, as long as it was the "right" brand. |
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We sure as hell do buy our guns to shoot but why does that mean we have to accept defects and blems before the first round down te barrrel?
The next time those of you who defend blems and defects go out to buy a car or appliance, ask the sales guy to give it a good kick and run a tool across the finish so you feel like it is a properly use appliance. If some brand like Olympic came out of the box like that, there'd be pages of commentary by the Couch Commandos about "crap, garbage, barf, out of spec, blah, blah blah, etc, etc". But if one of the "holy brands" looks like feces then it's A-okay and the excuse making machine swings into action on why the buyer should accept the defects. Amazing phenomenon. I'd love to sell some people around here a "new" car because I wouldn't have to worry about how it looked or even if it started, as long as it was the "right" brand. Once again - apples to oranges. Par for the course I guess 
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| Why is it that you have a hard time understanding the basic principle that when one pays for something new one shall expect a new unmolested product? And when one pays a premium for a product it should live up to the quality promised by the higher price and marketing? Whether it is an apple or an orange would you buy it if someone already took a bite out of it? Defending manufacturers who make money hand over fist on mass produced parts is just plain silly. |
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Phil - If you are still looking for a lower, I would recommend Kaiser Defense. I've built two, and put a Geissele DMR trigger in one. I did have to use the larger hammer pin, but it is rock solid. The finish is amazing and the quality of the piece is first rate. Plus you would be helping out a CA company.
(I'm not affiliated with the company in any way.) |
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