AR Sponsor
Posted: 9/6/2007 10:17:40 AM EDT
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Two quick legal questions: 1. Are there any legalities that I need to worry about in building uppers for friends. 2. If I have a freind order a stripped lower to an FFL which he pays for, can I assemble a rifle on that lower without any problems? The reasont that I ask is that several local LEOs have requested that I build service rifles for them on lowers that they will order. The department is strapped for cash and can't afford to order them, so these guys want custom builds. I would be taking possession of the lowers just long enough to put LPKs in them and attach the stocks. I guess what I am worried about is that I will be classified as a gunsmith or manufacturer and I don't want to do anything wrong. As a side note, a pawn shop has asked me the same question. They want to order lowers on their books and have me build rifles out of them for sale at the shop. Would this be problematic? |
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Upper no problem. Lowers do enough you can run ito problems. I'd search the BATF web site. Nra had an article a few onths back on GS building custom pistols. I think they statted that the BATF change the number to 50 a year before you had to clam the taxes. the number can be wrong, as I would defentily check with the BATF. You know how our gov can be on getting tax money. |
| Why not order assembled lowers so you would never take possession of the actual firearm. Every time I price it out: Lower, LPK and stocks or complete lower are within a few dollars of each other (that's just what I have come across, I could be wrong). Then build the upper, give it to whoever and let them push the pins in. This seems like it would work, unless they want lowers with 2 stage triggers and magpul grip and stock. Then I would say you are not a gunsmith or a manufacturer, your just a hobbyist. |
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That's probably the easiest solution. I think putting the upper together is the most complicated issue since the LEOs want free float rail systems, etc. I was amazed at what the cost was for them to get these installed by an armorer!!! It definitely prices this small department out of the game. |
Of course BATF is the authority on this, but I think the 50 per year only applies if one is selling them, not building for friends. I don't think we're talking compensation here. |
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great question! unless you're crazy, kicked out of military, or a felon, there is zero issue with you being in possession of a lower that happens to belong to someone else (unless you stole the lower, of course) unless you are manufacturing the lower itself, the ATF has no jurisdiction over you. taxes don't apply unless you are selling or making money on 50 per year or more (and that number really only applies to firearms that are TRANSFERED... like with the yellow form). like was previously mentioned, an upper has the same legal classification as a toaster. the gunsmith thing does not apply for someone who simply assembles the parts, not for profit. ETA: I'm not a lawyer, i just read tons of law to make sure i don't get the silver hook up by not knowing something i should have. knowing is half the battle... |
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The biggest problem is no legality but liability. Someone gets shot on purpose or the upper explodes and the lawyers find out the upper was 'custom', you'll definitely be needing legal services. The legal aspect is that assembly of a complete rifle from parts is manufacturing according to ATF. Remember that no excise tax has been paid so if you don't hold a current SOT, then it's manufacturing w/o a license. If you hold a valid FFL that is not Type 7 and manufacture less than 50 units a year, then there is an exemption from the excise tax. Ever wonder why no vendor will sell you a complete AR15 kit; it's always missing one or two little parts because the vendor does not want to be liable for the tax. |
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I can see some liability if the upper explodes but not if someone gets shot on purpose. Thats like saying if I went to sears and got 4 new tires and then ran down a pedestrian on purpose sears may be liable. If you are that worried about it then I would suggest not doing it at all, or forming an LLC to limit liabilty. But from what you are saying is that you are doing this as a favor and to LLC would go far beyond that. |
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If it was me...I would ask a lawyer just to CYA, especially when you mention building for a pawn shop that sells it to someone you do NOT know - I see BS liability claims there But if your friends were there and you offered "help" or "guidance" in the build, dont see a problem there |
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I also think if you are not a gunsmith then you cannot keep the lower or do work on it without the owner being present. Gunsmiths log guns in and out as they work on it, if you take a lower and the owner leaves your house and then you do work on it, that's an unlicensed gunsmith. But the simple answer would be to ask a gunsmith that has a license. You can have a friend over and install that LPK for them while they watch and learn but if they leave it and then you install it, I think that a no no. The upper, knock yourself out, do all of them you want, that's not a firearm. Also if they buy a complete lower with LPK installed, think about sending the trigger groups off to Bill Springfield and have him do his trigger job. He charges $32 shipping included and it removes all the crepe, gives a nice crisp pull and reduces the pull down to about 3 1/2 pounds. I had him do several and it's night and day difference that the stock trigger and he does not cut your springs. |
Agree re: liability. While the upper is not a "firearm", it is still a "firearm part" that you are building FOR POLICE. In the hands of police, such an upper stands a greater chance of being involved in an encounter where it either: 1) is used to shoot a suspect, or 2) is relied on in an emergency - where you had better hope that it works as intended & no one is hurt (imagine if it malfunctions when the officer is relying on it?). In either event, if a suspect or the officer is killed or injured while using your work, you can expect that your work is likely to be scrutinized by investigators and possibly lawyers for both the plainitff and defendant. Jim44 is right about the 24 hour/ "same business day" rule for licensed gunsmithing of lowers or any other firearm. If you possess it for more than 24 hours, then a "transfer" has occured in the eyes of the BATFE. You must have an FFL to engage in any type of gunsmithing (paid or not) and if you take possession for more than 24 hours, you have to log it in on your bound book that every FFL is required to keep. Here is the FAQ from BATFE: "Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent "bound book" record every firearm received for adjustment or repair? [Back] A. If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an "acquisition." If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record." LINK TO BATFE FAQ Here is another Q from the FAQ: "(I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms? [Back] Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer. See Item 16, “Federal Excise Tax” in the General Information section of this publication. [27 CFR 478.11]" (same link as above) Other than liability for the uppers you build, it appears that BATFE's FAQ would exclude someone who only SELLS firearm PARTS like uppers. But once you enter the area of modifying firearm parts, I believe you enter a grey area as far as what the BATFE might consider "gunsmithing." Here is the FAQ on SELLING parts only (I threw in the next section just to prove - for the millionth time - that you ARE allowed to make your OWN guns, subject to state laws & in a legal format, from 80% or 0% at home for personal use without asking permission): "A5) Does the GCA control the sale of firearms parts? [Back] No, except that frames or receivers of firearms are "firearms" as defined in the law and subject to the same controls as complete firearms. Silencer parts are also firearms under the GCA, as well as under the National Firearms Act (NFA). Certain machine gun parts, such as conversion parts or kits, are also subject to the NFA. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and (24), 26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 478.11 and 479.11] (A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back] With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency. [18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105] CBR |
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Wow, lots of opinions. As long as you're not PURCHASING the lowers for someone other than yourself, you're okay. There's no law against possessing someone elses guns or gun parts. Now you can purchase uppers and any other part for someone else w/o a problem. It's the registering of the lower receiver that must be done by the intended owner or end-user. Seems this thread has turned into a liability discussion. First off, I doubt you will create a gun that will explode on your buddies. Second, if it did malfunction - they probably wouldn't sue anyways. I personally don't worry about that when building guns for family and/or friends. Just make sure if they need a lower, that THEY purchase and sign for it. |
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Let's just assume that liablity is not an issue for the purposes of this discussion. I am only worried about the legalities of assembling a firearm on a lower receiver that is purchased by someone else. Let's also assume that I either have the lower for less than 24 hours or that the person for whom I am building the weapon will be in my presence while I install the lower parts kit so that they can learn how to do it themselves. Let's also throw the idea of building for a shop out completely. I have already decided that there are more complications than I care to navigate. Therefore, I am only building for friends and local LEOs who will be in my presence while I put together the lower parts kit. They will purchase the stripped lower from a gun shop in their own name. After the lower is assembled in their presence, they will take the lower home with them while I assemble the upper during my non-existent free time. All parts excepting the stripped lower will either be purchased by me and I will be reimbursed or they will purchase the required parts. I will not be doing this for any profit. This will be less than 10-15 firearms per year. Where does that leave me? |
| You're totally fine! The LOWER is the only part you can't buy for them. Especially since you're not doing it for profit - there's nothing to worry about. It's no different than if you were good at mechanic work and from time to time your friends stopped by to drop off cars for you to work on. It's a hobby or interest of yours and there would be no problem with a car registered to someone else to be in your possession for any length of time. You have nothing to worry about. |
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Viper just to be clear, yes a car could be in your possesion for any length of time but not the serial numbered part ie: the lower. If he keeps it overnight he is a gunsmith without a license profit doesn't enter into it AT ALL. The situation he described sounds just fine your reply was the problem example. |
RB, I know a lawyer or two you might ask 
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