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Posted: 3/7/2006 10:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 2:57:02 PM EDT by FortyFiveAutomatic]
It was a MEGA build, and it fired like a dream. He had gotten the lower back when they were cheap, bought a part here or there when he could afford it, and he finally completed it over the last weekend. Another BRD victim!

I was discussing the particulars of the build with him, and after talking about the lower receiver for a little while, he mentioned something which perked my ears up. He said, "Yeah, I got my lower parts, but I had some extra parts after I put it together. Sure glad it works okay." I asked if maybe the place he got it sent him some extra springs or pins or something, to which he replied, "yeah, I guess so. i have a pin and this little piece of metal, too. i couldn't find any instructions on the internet for them, so i just basically skipped them, but it seems to work ok...."

I said "whoa, stop right there. hand me your gun" and i cracked it open. Some of the parts inside looked different, particularly the hammer, which had a little hook on the end, and the selector, which was not solid like mine but machined and cut in several places. I said, "I think you got F/A parts instead of normal ones. How did you get these???" He said he couldn't remember, but that he would find the receipt from the place that shipped to him. I said "No, I mean you need a tax stamp to buy this stuff. And those other parts were probably a sear!" He says he doesn't know exactly, but that he got it online. I don't believe him. Could he be telling the truth? I think this is an illegal setup, and that perhaps he 1) bought the parts illegally or 2) stole them somehow. What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:07:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 11:57:30 AM EDT by yekimak]
tag.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:03:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 5:04:43 AM EDT by eye_spy]

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
He says he doesn't know exactly, but that he got it online. I don't believe him. Could he be telling the truth? I think this is an illegal setup, and that perhaps he 1) bought the parts illegally or 2) stole them somehow. What do you guys think?



He is YOUR friend ... YOU would know him better than we would. What do YOU think?
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:53:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:14:30 AM EDT
M-16 parts are not hard to come by and you don't need a tax stamp to buy them. They are not regulated in any way. Some dealers require proof that you legally own the M-16 they would go in, but most do not. When they do, it's just company policy, not law. I doubt he did anything illegal in getting them, he just didn't know better as you describe him. They are however illegal to use in a semi-auto build AND to even possess with a semi-auto AR. Have him remove and discard them ASAP.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 9:33:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
M-16 parts are not hard to come by and you don't need a tax stamp to buy them. They are not regulated in any way. Some dealers require proof that you legally own the M-16 they would go in, but most do not. When they do, it's just company policy, not law. I doubt he did anything illegal in getting them, he just didn't know better as you describe him. They are however illegal to use in a semi-auto build AND to even possess with a semi-auto AR. Have him remove and discard destroy them ASAP.




efxguy
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 10:08:19 AM EDT
I'd swap out the hammer for a semi auto hammer.....as far as the other parts go, just put 'em into the trash with the old hammer when you get the new one.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 2:56:42 PM EDT
UPDATE

I went over to my friend's house today. He said he cannot find the invoice, but that he remembers something like FTS. We googled that and returned nothing, so who knows who sold the parts to him. The little piece of leftover metal was indeed a sear!

The reason I wanted to ask yall is to see if this is in fact a legal practice (the purchase/sale of m16 fcgs). I was under the impression that you needed a tax stamp anywhere, by law, but I guess I was mistaken. My buddy has been known to do crazy stuff, and I guess for me it wasn't out of the realm of possibility for him to pilfer the parts or buy from some dude out of a van.

I told him that he should get an AR15 parts kit, and he said he figured they were the same. He said when he got into AR's he thought AR15/M16 parts were interchangeable, and he didn't think a business would sell him f/a parts so he didn't pay much attention to it. I advised him to get the parts out of the gun immediately, but he was reluctant. He said "you're not going to tell anyone, right?" I mentioned ARFCOM but since I didn't give his name, he didn't care. We ordered the new parts, but he didn't want to disassemble the m16 stuff. I told him it was his funeral if he got caught, but he's of the opinion that no one would be wise enough to crack it open. He's probably right, come to think of it, but that's not a risk I would take.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 3:04:14 PM EDT
M16 parts are fine in an AR15 so long as it does not fire fully automatic.
Your friend is correct that no one will ever know.
I do not know of anyone who has been prosecuted for having M16 parts in an AR.
If he wants to be safe, I would swap the parts out for AR parts.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 3:33:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
M16 parts are fine in an AR15 so long as it does not fire fully automatic.
Your friend is correct that no one will ever know.
I do not know of anyone who has been prosecuted for having M16 parts in an AR.
If he wants to be safe, I would swap the parts out for AR parts.



Very dangerous post here, exceedingly incorrect. You couldn't be more wrong.

ATF can, does and will continue to prosecute people who simply possess M-16 fire control parts AND a semi-auto AR receiver. All ATF has to do is make the gun fire two rounds with one pull to get the possession charge (very easy to do) but that's only one of several that can be levied against you for such a thing. Completely disassembled, the parts and the receiver constitute "Constructive Possession." Furthermore, possession of those parts and the receiver, even if they cannot get the gun to fire twice, is clear "Intent To manufacture a machine gun" which carries nearly identical penalties and prison time as "possession."

There are very limited exceptions to this as some AR makers used to use the FA bolt carrier in their AR builds many years ago. if you have one of these ARs (Colt) and still possess the original bolt carrier, you be okay as long as there weren't more M-16 parts around to take you out of that exception.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 4:08:13 PM EDT
do yourself a favor. tell your friend to remove the illegal parts and put the right ones in. it doesn't matter how slight this may appear to most here, but the BATFE will skin his nuts for this violation, regardless of how innocent it may appear.

tax stamp or no, state concerns or guidelines mean nothing, tell your buddy to get them out and keep them out.

it isn't illegal to purchase them or have them. you simply can't put them into a rifle they don't belong in. this is a great way to get in trouble for near nothing...

i personally would distance myself from this situation if he opts to leave them in...

septic tank
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:11:58 PM EDT
you could grind the hook off of the hammer and the tail off of the disconnector replace the selector lever with a semi one but the trigger needs the slot welded at the back of the channel to box it in or just replace the trigger. M16 parts can be modified to become AR15 parts.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:12:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 9:22:34 AM EDT by Homeinvader]

Originally Posted By septic-tank13:

it isn't illegal to purchase them or have them. you simply can't put them into a rifle they don't belong in. this is a great way to get in trouble for near nothing...

septic tank



Again, this is also incorrect on both points. It is illegal to simply possess them AND the semi-auto receiver they fit. The parts do not need to be installed in the gun to be in violation, they merely need to be in control of the possessor of the semi-auto receiver. "Constructive Possession of a Machine Gun" is what this charge is called and it means it's a machine gun whether or not the parts are in the gun or in the tool box. This is THE most common and most prosecuted machine gun violation. More people are charged, prosecuted and convicted of "Constructive Possession" than actual "Possession" because they believe they can skirt the law by not having the parts IN the gun. ATF lives and breathes because of this ignorance of the law.

Secondly, purchasing them CAN be a chargable offense also if ATF or state authorities believe they can prove that the purchaser intended to install the parts into a semi-auto host gun and create a machine gun in violation of the law. "Intent To Manufacture a Machine Gun" is the charge if authorities believe they intercepted the suspect's actions which would have otherwise resulted in the creation of an unregistered machine gun. If there is a second party involved, like a friend who loaned the money at the gun show to buy the parts or used his credit card to help out the true purchaser, the charge can become "Conspiracy To Manufacture A Machine Gun."

Basically, there is no situation in which it is legally permissible to possess M-16 fire control parts AND a semi-auto AR unless there is also present a registered full-auto M-16. The act of acquiring these parts outside a possessive situation (having the receiver present) isn't a violation necessarily depending on one's true motivation and intent, however if ATF merely believes they can prove your intent was otherwise, they can and will likely charge you with "Intent." If you were at a gun show and were truly buying these parts as a favor to a buddy who owned an M-16, that's fine, just make sure you can prove that intent somehow.

Convictions are something else and may or may not happen, but a federal firearms indictment is a very serious thing and it alone can ruin your life.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:12:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

<SNIP>

Convictions are something else and may or may not happen, but a federal firearms indictment is a very serious thing and it alone can ruin your life.



Your post also justifies what I've often heard regarding short barrels.........namely that if you own a short barrel, even uninstalled on an upper, then you BETTER have either a pistol-registered lower or a tax stamp.

Thanks for your post.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:44:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By feral:

Your post also justifies what I've often heard regarding short barrels.........namely that if you own a short barrel, even uninstalled on an upper, then you BETTER have either a pistol-registered lower or a tax stamp.



Exactly right. "Constructive Possession" applies not only to MGs, but to suppressors, Short Barrelled Rifles and Short Barrelled Shotguns. You need only the ingredients of the whole to be in violation of possessing the whole. "Constructive Possession" and actual "Possession" are different circumstances and different felony charges, but they carry identical penalities of 10/ 100,000, thats 10 years and 100,000 dollars per count. A pistol or existing registered SBS or SBR would cover the presence of a spare short barrels, but doesn't cover the installation of those barrels in a non-qualifying gun.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:56:38 AM EDT


Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I do not know of anyone who has been prosecuted for having M16 parts in an AR.



Sorry to fixate, I just had to add one more thing to this comment:

Whether or not you know anyone that has been prosecuted for this, the situation you mention - "Constructive Possession" of M-16 fire control parts and a semi-auto AR receiver - is THE most common specific machine gun prosecution in the United States.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:26:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 5:21:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 5:22:40 PM EDT by DougW]
I bought a kit from Century about 5 years ago, and it was a disassembled M16A2 rifle less the reciever, of course. Most of the little pieces were modified like the hammer and the bolt carrier, which had the bottom side milled almost all the way off, but the 3 round burst parts were all in the kit. The selector had a chunk of metal ground off, but it would still rotate all the way around to the SHTF setting. Needless to say, I bought all new FC parts and replaced everything except the carrier, which as I said, was modified.

Interesting that I just today recieved a new DPMS bolt and carrier assembly, and it has the exposed firing pin and the lower section milled out like the modified M16 bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 5:59:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 6:00:21 PM EDT by rogue007]
ATF reads here............. this is what they are looking for.


I think some people here have "illegal" parts and shouldnt even consider hinting that they know friends
or somebody here that they might be doing something illegal, Keep it to yourself. Tell your friend to remove the parts and
rebuy a lower parts kit that was made for a AR only. This is the only way that he/you can skip court time.

And I think the place he bought them was FTF Industries.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:47:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
There are very limited exceptions to this as some AR makers used to use the FA bolt carrier in their AR builds many years ago. if you have one of these ARs (Colt) and still possess the original bolt carrier, you be okay as long as there weren't more M-16 parts around to take you out of that exception.



Just for clarification, FA bolt carriers are allowed to be used in current builds as well, right? Also, does Colt use FA bolt carriers in some of their current civilian AR-15s?
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:01:16 AM EDT
The reason it's a bad idea to have all M-16 components in an otherwise semi gun is that it makes the gun DIAS ready. BATFE takes a very dim view of such a configuration, even if no dias is found. The dias is THE reason for this cryptic policy. Way back when, guys were making or buying a dias, and assembling a lower just like your friend's. At that time, it was no big deal. The dias would pop in or out depending upon whether "the man" was nearby, quickly converting a legal weapon into an illegal one, and back.

My opinion - grind the tail off the hammer. Replace the trigger, selector, and disconnector with the semi variant. At that point, I'd say you are good to go.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 1:48:23 PM EDT
Your friend isn't terribly bright. A new LPK is less than 60 bucks shipped. Reasonable cost to stay out of jail..
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 2:04:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By septic-tank13:

it isn't illegal to purchase them or have them. you simply can't put them into a rifle they don't belong in. this is a great way to get in trouble for near nothing...

septic tank



Again, this is also incorrect on both points. It is illegal to simply possess them AND the semi-auto receiver they fit. The parts do not need to be installed in the gun to be in violation, they merely need to be in control of the possessor of the semi-auto receiver. "Constructive Possession of a Machine Gun" is what this charge is called and it means it's a machine gun whether or not the parts are in the gun or in the tool box. This is THE most common and most prosecuted machine gun violation. More people are charged, prosecuted and convicted of "Constructive Possession" than actual "Possession" because they believe they can skirt the law by not having the parts IN the gun. ATF lives and breathes because of this ignorance of the law.

Secondly, purchasing them CAN be a chargable offense also if ATF or state authorities believe they can prove that the purchaser intended to install the parts into a semi-auto host gun and create a machine gun in violation of the law. "Intent To Manufacture a Machine Gun" is the charge if authorities believe they intercepted the suspect's actions which would have otherwise resulted in the creation of an unregistered machine gun. If there is a second party involved, like a friend who loaned the money at the gun show to buy the parts or used his credit card to help out the true purchaser, the charge can become "Conspiracy To Manufacture A Machine Gun."

Basically, there is no situation in which it is legally permissible to possess M-16 fire control parts AND a semi-auto AR unless there is also present a registered full-auto M-16. The act of acquiring these parts outside a possessive situation (having the receiver present) isn't a violation necessarily depending on one's true motivation and intent, however if ATF merely believes they can prove your intent was otherwise, they can and will likely charge you with "Intent." If you were at a gun show and were truly buying these parts as a favor to a buddy who owned an M-16, that's fine, just make sure you can prove that intent somehow.

Convictions are something else and may or may not happen, but a federal firearms indictment is a very serious thing and it alone can ruin your life.



its sounding like i just handed out bad advice or at least i've been under the wrong notion about these parts. i wouldn't knowingly misinform anyone - my apologies.

regardless, although i am prepared to believe Homeinvader, i question this. i've been searching the ATF.gov site and can't find anything about this. can someone provide the genuine link to the issue we're discussing?

again, i don't think Homeinvader is wrong, but i'd like to get it from the horse's mouth. no troll intended.

thanks,

septic tank
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:46:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 3:55:01 PM EDT by Homeinvader]
The ATF website is for general information and doesn't contain rulings or common ATF opinions or even specific regulations. If ever you want to do something that pertains to the technical configuration of a firearm (like using M-16 parts in an AR) and you're not sure of its legality, it's best to write a letter to ATF's Technology Branch and ask them. Tech Branch is the ATF department tasked with determining whether or not a specific firearm or a specific configuration of a firearm violates the law.

For instance, when a manufacturer creates a new type of semi-auto firearm or modifies the mechanics of an existing firearm (like creating a belt-fed upper for an AR), they send a sample to Tech Branch for approval.

Anyway, regarding M-16 parts and ARs, this is the best I can do:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter52.txt

EDIT: According to this letter, contrary to me, it is NOT okay to possess a registered M-16, spare M-16 fire control parts AND a semi AR receiver. So I will correct myself on that one!

Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:18:42 AM EDT
never doubted you! just wanted to find out for myself.

thanks!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:41:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 11:44:55 AM EDT by KA3B]
Quick, better toss out those "parts" that Clot SP1's have in them...

This shit comes up every month or so, usally in GD though.

Want to guess what's the FIRST fucking topic in the legal section is? HINT - IT'S TACKED.
www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=1&f=6

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