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Posted: 2/6/2006 4:37:41 PM EDT
My local dealer has been giving me the run around on getting me a price for a dpms lower. He says the only money i'll save is if i buy the lower stripped and assemble from there, as i would avoid the excise tax that is included with a assembled lower or full rifle. Is he full of crap? Of course he'd rather sell the the full rifle off the wall, but i think $900 for a 16 incher with collapisible stock is kinda retarded after seeing what you guys are building them for. I was just gonna buy a assembled lower since some of the prices i have been seeing for the stock and parts kit puts me right back up to the price of the already built lower. But if i can save some decent $$$ i'll just take the time to assemble it myself. I have plenty of tools and mechanical background. Any imput guys?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:12:18 PM EDT
You can buy a complete upper for $400 and complete lower for $240. Even after the transfer fee and shipping you're much better off than that $900 local dealer price.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:22:41 PM EDT
There is no excise tax on an assembled lower, only on a complete rifle. If you don't want to assemble your own lower and can get a good price on one that is complete, go for it. Sounds like he is more concerned about taking another $200 from you than giving you good information.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:04:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rkangel777:
There is no excise tax on an assembled lower, only on a complete rifle. If you don't want to assemble your own lower and can get a good price on one that is complete, go for it. Sounds like he is more concerned about taking another $200 from you than giving you good information.



+1

Without sven shopping around for the best price you can get (and these prices are on the high side just to prove a point) $450 shipped for a complete upper and about $275 shipped+transfer fee for a complete lower.

That puts you at $725 using my purposely over-estimated prices.

Building is far cheaper than most FFL's sell (or can sell) complete rifles for.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:25:08 PM EDT
Hrc;

I bought a Stag lower and a heavy varmint upper from J&T. Threw it together in a couple hours and took it to the range with some British manufacture ammo. First 10 shot group had 8 of the ten rounds touching at 100! That's quality on the cheap.

Dan C
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:46:43 PM EDT
I paid 644$ for my ar15 with 3 30round mags. Could have saved more if i didnt get speedy shipping. complete upper kit, dpms stripped lower, 3 mags from a salem gun show.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:42:13 PM EDT
thanks guys, thats what i thought. The only reason i want to deal with this local dealer is because they have have several makes of ar's on the wall. I asked for a price for a stripped lower(because he stressed that i will be charged 11% tax for a assembled lower) and he couldnt even get me a price, saying, " just check there website for the price". I WILL NOT PAY MSRP!!! I have another dealer locally that sells stuff dirt cheap but they're kinda old fashioned and deal with mostly shotguns and deer rifles. I'll check with them and see what a lower will run. Where do you recommend buying parts online for a good price? i know of del-ton, and midway shooting but thats about it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:17:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
You can buy a complete upper for $400 and complete lower for $240. Even after the transfer fee and shipping you're much better off than that $900 local dealer price.



Maybe, maybe not. You will not get the factory warranty, nor will go get any of the accessories. If you screw it up, you are on your own. Exactly what model of DPMS are you looking at?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:53:39 PM EDT
if you were to build the exact same rifle as if you were to buy it using the exact same parts you will only save the exise tax.


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:56:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
if you were to build the exact same rifle as if you were to buy it using the exact same parts you will only save the exise tax.





And it still won't be under warranty.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:01:39 PM EDT
I just priced what I can buy components for pure DPMS vs. what I can buy the rifle for. I saved exactly $18.00. I didn't factor in shipping. It would be close. For that $18.00 I would have to assemble the rifle. It still won't be under warranty. This me and me only, at my prices from DPMS.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:08:32 PM EDT
i have never needed any warranty out of all of my rifles bought or built but yeah there is no warranty
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:13:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:15:24 PM EDT
from what i have seen i can build a rifle for at least $100 cheaper than i can buy it from my $$ dealer, not knowing the exact numbers off the top of my head, the lower will run $275 or so, and i can get the complete upper from midway for anywhere from $400 up depending on what i want, and i want 2 seperate uppers, the average upper being around $500. Thats $775 for a rifle that my dealers wants $900 for. If building them saves no $$ then why build in the first place? midway runs specials on dpms uppers all the time, so i can buy one of those cheap. DPMS catalog from a couple years back states 21% tax on assembled rifles, my dealer says 11%. Who's right?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:20:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:20:51 PM EDT
Not trying to argue guys, just want the facts, i have read on here about guys who say they can build 2 ar's for the price of one complete from the factory. Are they for real? is there money to be saved in building my own? what accessories am i giving up by building? I was gonna make this a project to build over time so as not to hit my wallet so hard all at once, i have too many hobbies going on at once, lol
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:23:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:27:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
After saying 3 times that it won't be under warranty, I think we understand what you consider important with the weapon.



Yes, I think a warranty is important. Obviously, so do almost every customer I deal with, because every one of them ask me what the warranty is. The problem, as I see it, is that cheap sometimes equals cheap, not only inexpensive. He is asking question because he wants to know the facts. Not only the words "cheap."
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:30:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:31:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hrc1:
Not trying to argue guys, just want the facts, i have read on here about guys who say they can build 2 ar's for the price of one complete from the factory. Are they for real? is there money to be saved in building my own? what accessories am i giving up by building? I was gonna make this a project to build over time so as not to hit my wallet so hard all at once, i have too many hobbies going on at once, lol



Some of these guys are comparing apples to oranges. Sure you can build a cheap rifle, but how can you compare it to a factory rifle unless you use every component that the factory rifle has. If you do that there is no way you can come close to building two rifle for the price of one. At most you might save $100.00 AND IT STILL ISN'T UNDER WARRANTY!!!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:33:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What do you sell that people are all so paranoid as to keep asking about a warranty?


Cheap can be less quality, it can also be inexpensive, there is no doubt of that.



DPMS, Colt, Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite, DSA, Springfield, Robinson Armament to name a few.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:39:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 3:39:32 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:41:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 3:41:47 PM EDT by terrydavis]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
I should have known you were a dealer from your posts. That explains it.



And I can tell you aren't from your's. I tend to stand fully behind what I sell.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:46:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 3:47:16 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:50:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
The subject of the thread is a cheap build, not how to get a warranty, However, I think you will find that most of the companies that sell kits do have a warranty, and they take care of people of this board all the time.





I said I stand behind what I sell. I don't leave to some one else to fix. I fix it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:06:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:27:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
You fix a Colt under Colts warantee?



I didn't say that, though I am a Factory Certified Colt Armorer. I am also a full time gunsmith. If I can fix it without voiding the warranty I will. If not I will swap out the firearm with a new one, if in stock and I will deal with the factory myself.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:32:15 PM EDT
Get yourself a C&R (03) FFL from the ATF. It cost $30 for 3 years. Send the lis. to Midway, and Brownells. They will give you dealer price. It averages 15%. You will not be able to purchase a rec., but it will make the cost of your other parts a lot cheaper. Trust me, it is worth the 1-2 month wait to get the liscence and get the dealer prices for 3 years. Plus you can have any C&R gun shipped right to your door. There is no transfer fee for these guns as you are keeping the books yourself. SKS's, Garands, M1 carbines, just to name a few are C&R.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:38:19 PM EDT
i have yet had a problem that any dealer of ar15.com has not taken care of, that being said i havent seen a dealer that didnt offer to repair,replace, or refund anything that wasnt up to par.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:48:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i have yet had a problem that any dealer of ar15.com has not taken care of, that being said i havent seen a dealer that didnt offer to repair,replace, or refund anything that wasnt up to par.



I have seen all the bitching about gunshows and the crooked dealers there, there are some of you believe that all dealers are crooks, some of you who believe most dealers are crooks, and some of you who believe every other one is a crook.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:12:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
You fix a Colt under Colts warantee?



I didn't say that, though I am a Factory Certified Colt Armorer. I am also a full time gunsmith. If I can fix it without voiding the warranty I will. If not I will swap out the firearm with a new one, if in stock and I will deal with the factory myself.



This is a bunch BS, and has nothing to do with the post.

And for the record, I am a Dealer, Type 07 Manufacturer, and also a registered Dealer with Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, DPMS, and several others, and I can tell you I have had more "Factory" Rifles Returned for work, or Waranty work, than any of the Many Rifles that I have built.

And you wonder why people don't like Dealers
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:28:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bandit68:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
You fix a Colt under Colts warantee?



I didn't say that, though I am a Factory Certified Colt Armorer. I am also a full time gunsmith. If I can fix it without voiding the warranty I will. If not I will swap out the firearm with a new one, if in stock and I will deal with the factory myself.



This is a bunch BS, and has nothing to do with the post.

And for the record, I am a Dealer, Type 07 Manufacturer, and also a registered Dealer with Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, DPMS, and several others, and I can tell you I have had more "Factory" Rifles Returned for work, or Waranty work, than any of the Many Rifles that I have built.


And you wonder why people don't like Dealers



Well, I think it has everything to do with this post. A factory rifle is better than 95% of the builds. Comparing a professional to some of the builders on this forum is ridiculous. Have you been reading the same post as I? Go back and read the first post, this is exactly what this post is about.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:16:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:17:26 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
My build that I put completely together from parts from a variety of sources (local and from the Dealers here) is the only AR I have that didn't have a hiccup while breaking in. Over 1000rds through it now (I've only had it together since September) and still not one single malfunction of any kind.

My other 3 builds were just uppers dropped onto a lower and 2 of those had an initial FTFeed or two, while the other turned problematic. I fixed it myself with the proper application of the dremel and it has been fine since then.

Hell, my Brother's Bushy 20" factory rifle even had problems at first.

I trust my builds with my life. I don't rely on a rifle built by somebody that's getting the 1,000yd stare from doing the same thing every day for the past couple years. Their life doesn't rely on that rifle, they're just doing their job.

Just my opinion.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:42:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By Bandit68:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
You fix a Colt under Colts warantee?



I didn't say that, though I am a Factory Certified Colt Armorer. I am also a full time gunsmith. If I can fix it without voiding the warranty I will. If not I will swap out the firearm with a new one, if in stock and I will deal with the factory myself.



This is a bunch BS, and has nothing to do with the post.

And for the record, I am a Dealer, Type 07 Manufacturer, and also a registered Dealer with Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, DPMS, and several others, and I can tell you I have had more "Factory" Rifles Returned for work, or Waranty work, than any of the Many Rifles that I have built.


And you wonder why people don't like Dealers



Well, I think it has everything to do with this post. A factory rifle is better than 95% of the builds. Comparing a professional to some of the builders on this forum is ridiculous. Have you been reading the same post as I? Go back and read the first post, this is exactly what this post is about.



Well, I disagree, You can save alot of money by building, and let's not kid our self's, Building an AR is not Rocket Science.
If you use quality parts, you will save money, and have a Great Rifle.

And that's all I have to say about that
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:56:30 PM EDT
Buy a Kit from J-T or Del-Ton and a stripped lower of your choosing. They will back thier products up 100% And you will Save at least a hundred bucks.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:23:20 PM EDT
I guess i don't understand the turn my original post took. From what i understood previouse to my post, a AR-15 is a modular rifle easily assembled form parts purchased sepratley. I thought it would be fun to build my own, not from scratch, but buy a lower, assembled or dissasembled, depending on how mutch i save and how mutch i want to know about my rifle, and slap on a preassembled upper and go have some fun. From what i know, all uppers are test fired from the factory, at least the better known brands are. I am looking at dpms and rra components for my build, not no name cheaper than dirt brands. Even though i don't know the ar all that well yet, i have preciouse experience with plenty of firearms. I have tricked out my 10/22 to death and wanted a new project. I am more than posative i can figure out the mechanics of assembling a lower reciever with name brand parts. If home built rigs are so crappy, then why does anyone build them in the first place? I thought this forum was pro build your own the way i was reading it. I have researched all i can find for the last month on this rifle, and it looked like i'd be retarded to buy a factory gun, but now i'm being told to just buy a factory gun and get raped by my $$$ dealer. I am not trusting my life to this rifle, it is for fun, killing paper and ringing steel. Is there a downfall i'm not seeing to building an ar to the specs i want and not a factory? Sorry for the frustration, but Thsi is the build your own forum, and it looks like plenty of guys do it already. So i'm not treading on fresh ground here. Also, fatory rifles, i'm assuming are not hand built custom rigs that must meet the tightest tollerances, but production rifles like all the remmy 700's or winchester model 70's at your local gun shop on the wall, am i correct? Lew bauer rifles are "custom" where great detail is paid to every aspect of the build, hence the price. Now is the rra or dpms that i see in the catalog going to hit that same mark? What is so different about the factory production ar over one i would assemble at home that makes the factory gun 95% better? Are all the factory guns hand tuned by a smith before they leave the factory? All this warranty talk, should i expect the bolt to shred after the first 20 rounds? Is there any warranty to a pre assembled upper?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:52:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
You can buy a complete upper for $400 and complete lower for $240. Even after the transfer fee and shipping you're much better off than that $900 local dealer price.



Maybe, maybe not. You will not get the factory warranty, nor will go get any of the accessories. If you screw it up, you are on your own. Exactly what model of DPMS are you looking at?




Sorry to burst your bubble but the prices I gave were for RRA complete uppers and lowers from authorized dealers. And they do come with a warranty.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:17:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
You can buy a complete upper for $400 and complete lower for $240. Even after the transfer fee and shipping you're much better off than that $900 local dealer price.



Maybe, maybe not. You will not get the factory warranty, nor will go get any of the accessories. If you screw it up, you are on your own. Exactly what model of DPMS are you looking at?




Sorry to burst your bubble but the prices I gave were for RRA complete uppers and lowers from authorized dealers. And they do come with a warranty.



My bubble isn't burst yet. Now why don't you tell us the exact configurations of the lower and upper and what model of rifle are you comparing it too. For $240 for the lower are you getting the NM trigger? Does it have the Houge grip? 6 Pos stock? Does the upper have the carry handle? Does it have the side sling mount? Did you get one 30 round magazine with your parts gun? How about an owner's manual? I'll bet the difference in price is much closer now.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:22:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:27:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Terry, do you have any idea how you are coming across?



The truth will set you free. Comparisions are being made to apples and oranges. I just want to compare and apple to an apple and an orange to an orange. Is there some reason you do not?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:33:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:49:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
I'm done with you. You have avoided the entire topic of the thread in an effort to scare someone away from a build. You can only spout the warranty angle, because its all you have. You have yet to make a comment that means anything on the actual topic.

The truth is that he can build a weapon cheaper, and still have it be under warranty. You don't like that evidently, but it doesn't change anything.

This forum is dedicated to BUILDING AR15s. Your sole purpose seems to be scaring people away or causing trouble. The regular posters here try to help people, its a shame that you can't do the same.



I'm not trying to scare anyone away from building their own AR. There are advantages to doing so. I am try to clear up some comparisions. You cannot build a rifle using one company's components and have a significant savings. When you do use various parts, each part may be under warranty but the entire firearm is not. Build your AR, just go into the project with your eyes open with an understanding of all the advantages and disadvantages. Why are you so opposes the the complete truth?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:57:26 PM EDT
Look, I am not trying to talk anyone out of building a rifle. I guess what is hanging me up is the claims and questions about being able to build the equivalent of a factory rifle cheaper. To me equivalent means the exact same components go into your build. Well the cost will be very close. If you want to build an AR using various components you can build a quality rifle. There is nothing wrong with that.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:31:47 PM EDT
FWIW I just built a Lower with a Ameetec stripped lower receiver using a BM LPK while I did not save a lot of money I enjoyed immensely assembling my own complete lower I saved about $25. I am sure you could save alittle more. I ordered a Delton Custom Upper for it. The whole rifle complete will run me about $775.00 but it will have all the features I want that I could not find on a factory assembled Rifle for that price point. YMMV
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:01:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 12:05:31 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
You can buy a complete upper for $400 and complete lower for $240. Even after the transfer fee and shipping you're much better off than that $900 local dealer price.



Maybe, maybe not. You will not get the factory warranty, nor will go get any of the accessories. If you screw it up, you are on your own. Exactly what model of DPMS are you looking at?




Sorry to burst your bubble but the prices I gave were for RRA complete uppers and lowers from authorized dealers. And they do come with a warranty.



My bubble isn't burst yet. Now why don't you tell us the exact configurations of the lower and upper and what model of rifle are you comparing it too. For $240 for the lower are you getting the NM trigger? Does it have the Houge grip? 6 Pos stock? Does the upper have the carry handle? Does it have the side sling mount? Did you get one 30 round magazine with your parts gun? How about an owner's manual? I'll bet the difference in price is much closer now.



No NM trigger, not that big a deal to me.
No Hogue grip, I don't like them anyway. Ergogrip (which I do like) is $20 new.
Yes it has a 6 position stock.
No carry handle, don't need it. ARMS BUIS is $69 new.
No side sling mount, don't use one anyway.
No magazine. I can buy all I want for $12 new.
Owner's Manual....I have one already, it's the same for every rifle why would I need one for each?

So let's run the numbers again.....$660 for a new complete rifle backed by a manufacturer's warranty + $20 for a new grip (not needed but you wanna bitch about it) + $69 for a BUIS + $12 for your single mag just like a new one comes with......TOTAL=$761

That's over $130 cheaper than the original poster's quoted price from the local dealer. Now that's with all new parts. The grip, BUIS and mags can be found cheaper used but I didn't want to give you anything else to cry about.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 2:21:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
You can buy a complete upper for $400 and complete lower for $240. Even after the transfer fee and shipping you're much better off than that $900 local dealer price.



Maybe, maybe not. You will not get the factory warranty, nor will go get any of the accessories. If you screw it up, you are on your own. Exactly what model of DPMS are you looking at?




Sorry to burst your bubble but the prices I gave were for RRA complete uppers and lowers from authorized dealers. And they do come with a warranty.



My bubble isn't burst yet. Now why don't you tell us the exact configurations of the lower and upper and what model of rifle are you comparing it too. For $240 for the lower are you getting the NM trigger? Does it have the Houge grip? 6 Pos stock? Does the upper have the carry handle? Does it have the side sling mount? Did you get one 30 round magazine with your parts gun? How about an owner's manual? I'll bet the difference in price is much closer now.



No NM trigger, not that big a deal to me.
No Hogue grip, I don't like them anyway. Ergogrip (which I do like) is $20 new.
Yes it has a 6 position stock.
No carry handle, don't need it. ARMS BUIS is $69 new.
No side sling mount, don't use one anyway.
No magazine. I can buy all I want for $12 new.
Owner's Manual....I have one already, it's the same for every rifle why would I need one for each?

So let's run the numbers again.....$660 for a new complete rifle backed by a manufacturer's warranty + $20 for a new grip (not needed but you wanna bitch about it) + $69 for a BUIS + $12 for your single mag just like a new one comes with......TOTAL=$761

That's over $130 cheaper than the original poster's quoted price from the local dealer. Now that's with all new parts. The grip, BUIS and mags can be found cheaper used but I didn't want to give you anything else to cry about.



Take your figures for a total of $761.00 for your build and the $900.00 benchmark rifle in the original post, subtract the $72.00 to $125.00 for the NM Trigger add back in the Mil-Spec Fire Control Parts and guess what? I am trying to compare the price of a factory rifle with a build of the exact same components. You know apple to apple. I am making no other comparison. Yes, it can be cheaper, even better, to build a rifle using various manufactures parts. Apples to oranges. I am not trying to discourage anyone from building a rifle, in fact I encourage it. It can be very rewarding.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:54:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 6:56:57 PM EDT by Bandit68]
Is this still going ?, It's like the little pink bunny, it keep's going and going and going.

Hrc1, Just build your rifle, you will enjoy it, get exactly what you want, and learn alot.

And yes, your local Dealer is to high on that rifle.

ETA : Unless it is a Colt.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 8:12:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 8:14:21 PM EDT by Parabellium]
defently build, i had alot of fun building my M4gery and my pistol.
ill never buy a whole rifle after doing my own.
one of the nice things is you get to hand pick all your parts by brand features ect
and i hate know it all dealers, expecially when they wont give you what you ask for they just try and give you what they think you need or what they want to sell you.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:03:40 AM EDT
I would suggest you find an FFL who does not run a store,he will charge you 20 to 25 bucks for a transfer and you can buy the rest right here from dealers or private sales. I bought every part of my AR from the EE new and total cost was 603.00
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:09:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Look, I am not trying to talk anyone out of building a rifle. I guess what is hanging me up is the claims and questions about being able to build the equivalent of a factory rifle cheaper. To me equivalent means the exact same components go into your build. Well the cost will be very close. If you want to build an AR using various components you can build a quality rifle. There is nothing wrong with that.



Factory rifle? I will bet money that the one i built is just as good as the one you paid 400 extra for from the factory. Have you built your own rifle?Have you tested your build against your factory rifle? Do you know what you are talking about?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:28:42 AM EDT
Build it....it's a satisfying experience....
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