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Posted: 10/28/2003 1:53:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 2:01:22 PM EDT by ZenTheMighty]
I am wishing to build a AR-Clone here in the PRK, in a cali-compliant manner (make it so the mag release is operated by a punch), however I have one small problem: I can't import a lower with the letters "AR" on it into the state (mpre specifically the lowers in this list:

<sarcasm>California's list of evil weapons that possess you and make you randomly kill. </sarcasm>

Anyone have an idea where I can locate the a lower that would meet my purposes?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 3:23:39 PM EDT
I'm not up to date on the CA bans but I thought you had to have a 10rd permanent magazine?Operating the mag release with a punch would not qualify.There are a couple 10rd CA legal lower receivers that I can think of.DPMS and Fab 10.I don't think you will find any other brand that can be imported to CA if it accepts hi-cap mags.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 9:01:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2003 9:02:05 AM EDT by ZenTheMighty]
As long as I only use a 10 round mag in the gun, it should be legal. From the text of SB 23 (which is the generic listing by "feature") 978.20 Definitions The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1: (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 9:09:40 AM EDT
If you must. Olympics say LAR RRA dont say AR at all (At least I dont remember)
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 10:49:51 AM EDT
Olympics say PCR, RRA say LAR. I am afraid you are out of luck. I would move to an AR friendly state than try to find loop hole in California laws. Thanks Arvin
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 11:12:10 AM EDT
Zen, Just curious, your location says Arizona. Wassup wit dat?
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 11:26:30 AM EDT
I moved and miss my AR. I never updated my profile here.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 12:01:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2003 12:04:31 PM EDT by wyv3rn]
You are wrong, you need to re-read the laws. There is more than 1 way the AR is banned. The AR is banned by name and so is anything is the same as an AR with only "minor differences". Then you have bans by characteristics. Detachable magazine means exactly that. Doesn't matter if it's 5 or 10 or 30. In order to have an AR in the PRK you must have a fixed 10 round (or less) magazine. This complies with both ban types. 1. The weapon no longer has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and thus does not fall under the "characteristics" definitions. 2. The weapon no longer has the capacity to accept an AR detachable magazine and thus has more than minor differences from a normal AR lower. A detachable magazine has been an inseperable, required part of the AR design since it's inception. Thus a "fixed magazine AR" isn't really an AR. You need to go through the state laws and read them VERY carefully or you will commit a felony and if ever caught and convicted you will never own another firearm (legally) in your life again. And don't reply to flame me and tell me that I'm wrong because I'm not. I've read that entire section probably 20 times. I'm just giving my 2 cents and trying to help you remain free. If you think I'm wrong, go ahead and buy your lower. Hope you like concrete floors.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 2:39:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arvin: Olympics say PCR, RRA say LAR. I am afraid you are out of luck. I would move to an AR friendly state than try to find loop hole in California laws. Thanks Arvin
View Quote
wut about bushy's? i think they are XM's. maybe not all of 'em, but my partner's is. i always rag him about it, someone looked at our rifles and asked "are those AR15's?" i told him, "well, this one is"LOL
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 2:52:17 PM EDT
Talk to Rick at Kristi Tool, tell 'im MournSword sent ya. He'll help you out!! MournSword
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 8:33:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2003 9:18:28 AM EDT by ZenTheMighty]
Wyvern, I think you're wrong about this. I have spent many hours reading all of the California gun laws. The Rooberti-Roos (sp?) act of 89 bans specifically named assault weapons. The state then acted to prevent clones with odd names from proliferating by creating the "Roster of AK and AR's" which they regularly updated with all the new models. Eventually, the state decided to change the nature of the ban from specifically named rifles to "characteristics of an assault weapon" (note: The specifically named weapons are still banned no matter what.) The *KEY* characteristic of an Assault weapon is a detachable magazine. A detachable magazine is defined in SB23 as: 978.20 Definitions The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1: (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine. Using the definition, if I cannot possibly remove the magazine by hand it is *not* detachable. If I need to use a tool (in this case a punch) to hit the mag release, the rifle meets SB23's criteria. The rifle will become illegal the second I insert a magazine of greater capacity than 10 rounds into it, but seeing how I can't buy regular capacity magazines here, that will never happen.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 9:10:13 AM EDT
Find an Essential Arms lower, they're marked 'J-15'.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 9:46:30 AM EDT
[url]http://www.carricozarmory.com/index.html[/url] I'm not sure about the Mega lowers but I have a Stinger lower and the markings are as follows..... STINGER ARMS CAL .223/5.56 MODEL M.M.S. LCB XXXX MEGA MACHINE SHOP INC. TUMWATER WA, USA
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 10:10:44 AM EDT
Thanks Aslag. That is what I was looking for. Keith
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 11:13:46 AM EDT
I think your real problem is going to be finding a dealer willing to send a lower to CA.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 11:29:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2003 11:40:44 AM EDT by b0ne]
I've already been down this road... 1. Standard AR receivers are illegal, because they have features that meet the criteria set by various California laws. 2. Various (but not all) standard AR receivers, regardless of features, are illegal because they are named in Roberti-Roos or are listed in the Kasler v. Lockyer assault weapons list. 3. This means that, technically, the only AR receiver allowed in California would be one that does not fall into #1 *OR* #2. To wit, it does not meet the criteria, AND it is not one of the listed "assault weapons". Now, pursant to your question: Even if you could build one meeting #3 (by using an unlisted lower), it's still iffy because there's nothing stopping them from adding your unlisted receiver to the list at any time. That means the second a Mega or Stinger or any other unlisted lower shows up on the list, you're a felon, even if it doesn't have any evil features. This applies even if you modified a Mega lower to EXACTLY match a FAB-10 lower, it can still become illegal at some future date when some politician decides to add it to the "evil list" by name. You can use a receiver that is specifically exempted by the CA DOJ, such as the FAB-10. Or you can use a receiver that, by its very design, fails to meet the criteria for an 'assault weapon', such as the DPMS single-shot receiver for example. It's not possible to build one that has a 30rd magazine that requires tools or disassembly to remove, because then that makes it a fixed magazine, which is limited to 10 rounds pursant to section 12276.1, #2. In other words, if it's detachable (defined as not requiring tools or disassembly) it's an assault weapon. If it's not detachable (defined as requiring tools or disassembly) it cannot exceed 10 rounds capacity. Theoretically I think you could build an 80% lower so that it did not meet the evil features criteria. And since it's an 80%, it obviously wouldn't be on the list. However, I dont' like the idea of becoming a test case depending on the opinion of the cop who sees me shooting my "assault weapon looking thingie" at the range... Here's a couple of threads (one started by me): [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=171277&w=searchPop[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=169340&w=searchPop[/url] Redbone's right, you'd have a hard time finding an FFL willing to sell you a lower, unless it was a FAB-10 or DPMS single shot. You could however build it outside the state and then bring it in after it's been neutered. However, you'd be subject to the whims of those who add names to the Evil List.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 2:58:28 PM EDT
I can't believe you're still pursuing this. Man, you must really like cold floors and if you don't you better start liking them because you're going to be spending many years on one if you continue. And never owning a firearm EVER AGAIN because you were too impatient/lazy/whatever to wait to move out of state? Think about it in the long run, you could very well regret (more than anything) the moves you make today. That said, good luck, I hope what I've said never happens to you and if you ever do get to sit in the defendants chair that you end up turning the laws around by means of case law.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 3:19:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2003 3:53:23 PM EDT by ZenTheMighty]
Thank you for your concern wyvern. I consulted a local FFL regarding this. He said this might stand a chance in the DOJ and to submit the design to them, so I shall do that.
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