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Posted: 4/25/2011 6:10:11 PM EDT
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I've been pretty interested in the few Class-I IR lasers coming to market lately, and have found myself wanting one...but also wondering how/why they are employed. In the future, I plan on picking up a night-vision setup of some sort, and would like to use one of these IR units for low/no light training...but first, I obviously need to gain a better understanding of how their use is applied.
While running NVG's, is it just difficult/cumbersome to get proper sight alignment behind a RDS? Are the IR lasers for "heads-up" use/aiming? |
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Quoted: I've been pretty interested in the few Class-I IR lasers coming to market lately, and have found myself wanting one...but also wondering how/why they are employed. In the future, I plan on picking up a night-vision setup of some sort, and would like to use one of these IR units for low/no light training...but first, I obviously need to gain a better understanding of how their use is applied. While running NVG's,is it just difficult/cumbersome to get proper sight alignment behind a RDS? Are the IR lasers for "heads-up" use/aiming? Short answer: yes. If you're working with another NODs user, it can also be used to point out a target. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I've been pretty interested in the few Class-I IR lasers coming to market lately, and have found myself wanting one...but also wondering how/why they are employed. In the future, I plan on picking up a night-vision setup of some sort, and would like to use one of these IR units for low/no light training...but first, I obviously need to gain a better understanding of how their use is applied. While running NVG's,is it just difficult/cumbersome to get proper sight alignment behind a RDS? Are the IR lasers for "heads-up" use/aiming? Short answer: yes. If you're working with another NODs user, it can also be used to point out a target. To add a lot of night vision cant handle the recoil of larger calibers above 5.56 so you have to mount the nighvision on your head and use a laser to not mess up the NV when using bigger calibers. Another reason is do you really want to be pointing the muzzle of your gun everywhere you look? Remember your firearm safety, sometimes when hunting or other circumstances you just dont have time to unmount from your helmet and to your rifle. |
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Both of the above are correct but leave out certain points.
1st NVD's are NOT a weapon they are a tool to increase situational awareness in dark or low/no light. Therefore they are no good if they are not on your head in front of your eyes when it is dark. Putting a PVS 14 on a rifle like a scope is not stupid- but it is very limiting. So the NVD goes on your face so you can see where you are looking. Now with the NVD on your face how do you use the sights? You can't- enter the IR laser. The IR laser allows you to aim the rifle/ pistol with the NVDs on your face so you can shoot targets and scan for threats at the same time. Without having to lower the weapon or the NVDs. Also during night operations with NVDs sound discipline is paramount the enemy can't see you in a perfect setting but they can still here using the IR laser allows you to communicate with team members directions or targets with out making any noise. It really is simple in practice but like anything with NVGs it takes several nights to get good you will not get use to a monocular NVD in one night and you will not get to the point where you can hit targets in one or two range sessions. I recommend getting the NV first don't skimp Gen 2+ is the min IMO Gen 3 is ideal these are not cheap. Get a good helmet, learn to use the mount. Then go camping out in the middle of no where. Walk around the camp site with the Nods on you will fall down you will walk into branches you will make noise if you use a monocular you may even get a splitting headache. This will take several outings to get good with. More than 2 just to be comfortable. The after you get good with moving around with the NODs get the lasers and learn to shoot with them. I started using PVS 5 in 1996- In the .mil you are forced to wear the NVGs for entire nights and they become second nature I can even drive with them on (not recommended and very illegal). The point is anything you do during the day you can do with nods at night but it is a little harder. As a civi though it will be very hard to find the time or motivation to wander around in the dark until you are proficient. |
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Thanks for all the input guys.
I also took this question to my friend who was Marine Recon with 3 tours in Iraq under his belt. He said they used NVD's with IR lasers often...but primarily for communication, pointing out potential threats/targets, and using the IR flood light capability for all around better vision at night. He said they very very rarely used the IR lasers to actively engage targets because being 100% sure of target ID was still quite difficult even with good NVD's. I understand why head-mounted NVD's are probably tactically more effective, but I'm starting to think that running a weapon-mounted monocular may be more practical for any uses I would likely incur. II was thinking I'd probably use it in conjunction with a QD Larue mount so I could easily remove and stow the unit when not in use. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for all the input guys. I also took this question to my friend who was Marine Recon with 3 tours in Iraq under his belt. He said they used NVD's with IR lasers often...but primarily for communication, pointing out potential threats/targets, and using the IR flood light capability for all around better vision at night. He said they very very rarely used the IR lasers to actively engage targets because being 100% sure of target ID was still quite difficult even with good NVD's. I understand why head-mounted NVD's are probably tactically more effective, but I'm starting to think that running a weapon-mounted monocular may be more practical for any uses I would likely incur. II was thinking I'd probably use it in conjunction with a QD Larue mount so I could easily remove and stow the unit when not in use. I dont get it how does nighvision mounted to a rifle help identify a target better than nightvision mounted on your head? |
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I didn't intend to say that it did. My friend said they pretty much used head-mounted NVD's exclusively...but that they still didn't actively engage in fights using NVG's and IR lasers with any regularity.
This just made me think that my idea of doing fast-pace firing drills and active shooter engagement training with NVG's and IR lasers is probably a little far-fetched and unrealistic in relation to how these tools are actually used in real situations. |
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Quoted:
I didn't intend to say that it did. My friend said they pretty much used head-mounted NVD's exclusively...but that they still didn't actively engage in fights using NVG's and IR lasers with any regularity. This just made me think that my idea of doing fast-pace firing drills and active shooter engagement training with NVG's and IR lasers is probably a little far-fetched and unrealistic in relation to how these tools are actually used in real situations. Well I guess your buddy has never cut the power to a building where there are known terrorist's, storm in with nod's and actively engage threat's using ir laser's? Or how about urban work in the middle of the night? Oh that's right he's marine recon 
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The main reason (non-hunting animals here guys) for mounting a PVS-14 on a weapon is bad guys ALSO have NV. We do not own the night as we once did. It's called IR light discipline. We always say in our training courses, "using a IR laser at night while the enemy has NODS can get you killed faster than using your white light." Placing a PVS-14 on a weapon behind a RDS can be a great asset for passive shoots if the need arises.
The ability to quickly transition from a head mounted PVS to ones weapon and vice/versa (in the dark of course) can also be paramount is why we developed our TM-14 NV mount. Vic |
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Quoted: Quoted: I didn't intend to say that it did. My friend said they pretty much used head-mounted NVD's exclusively...but that they still didn't actively engage in fights using NVG's and IR lasers with any regularity. This just made me think that my idea of doing fast-pace firing drills and active shooter engagement training with NVG's and IR lasers is probably a little far-fetched and unrealistic in relation to how these tools are actually used in real situations. Well I guess your buddy has never cut the power to a building where there are known terrorist's, storm in with nod's and actively engage threat's using ir laser's? Or how about urban work in the middle of the night? Oh that's right he's marine recon That sounds like a video game. You still have to target ID (white light). |
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The main reason there are few night engagements is that the enemy will not stand and fight at night against us. They will run every time.
As far as cutting the power and door kicking The operations I was in where we did such things we went white light as soon as we stacked. I was no SF operator but we never ran night vision on clearing it limited the peripheral vision to much. However we did move to contact/ objective wearing night vision regularly. |
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Going to white light makes sense for a dynamic CQB situation.
In addition to moving to contact, I would think that a helmet mounted PVS14 with an IR laser would be ideal for an ambush situation indoors or outdoors - especially, in the initial stages of the ambush. |
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Quoted:
The main reason there are few night engagements is that the enemy will not stand and fight at night against us. They will run every time. As far as cutting the power and door kicking The operations I was in where we did such things we went white light as soon as we stacked. I was no SF operator but we never ran night vision on clearing it limited the peripheral vision to much. However we did move to contact/ objective wearing night vision regularly. And such is the realities of METT-TC. I've got a good buddy I've worked with for a couple years now who was in Batt. I don't think he's ever told me about white lighting for room clearing. According to him always ran NODs to, at, and from the objective in the 5 tours he did. The subject comes up quite a bit due to the fact we work with night vision technology and systems at our job. In fact, a guy we met told usexactly what you did, and he couldn't believe that was a tactic in use. |
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Here is a scenario to consider:
It is 1:30am, February 22, 2013. The dollar collapsed 4 weeks ago. The food riots that started during week 2 are over because there are no groceries on the shelves at any store. Trucking has completely stopped. Small groups of men have started going house to house to kill, rape, plunder, and look for food. Martial law has been declared. However, the authorities are spread very thin. No one has seen a cop or National Guard person in over a week. Power to your neighborhood is out. You are sitting behind a makeshift barricade near your front porch and you see 3 armed males approaching your house from a field 100 yards away through your PVS14. As they get closer, you are sure you do not recognize them and it is obvious they do not know you are there. They are not with the police. They quickly hop your fence 50 yards away. You have two choices 1. You engage them now with your PVS14 and IR laser from a position of stealth. You can see them. They can't see you. or 2. You let them to pin you down, flank and kill you as one goes left, right, and center. If you did not have the wisdom to purchase night vision and an IR laser, you wouldn't have had this choice. You would have been killed because you wouldn't have known they were out there until it was too late. You needed a force multiplier. The IR laser and PVS14 is a force multiplier for a regular guy hoping to defend his home from multiple looters at night in a SHTF situation. |
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