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Posted: 12/25/2007 7:52:29 PM EDT
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Looking for input on gunsafes. MANUFACTURE RECOMENDATIONS / WARRANTY?? FIRE PROTECTION RATING & MATERIALS? GUAGE OF STEEL? EXTERNAL HINGES? ELECTRICAL LOCK? OTHER INPUT PLEASE? |
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I say NO on the electronic lock and the external hinges. Price increases exponentially with fire rating, and really all it boils down to is another sheet of drywall inside (as I understand it). After I bought my Liberty, I realized that I had created a new rule of thumb on safes: whatever you think is enough for gun capacity, double it. ARs EAT safe space. And...be sure and put a GoldenRod dehumidifier in the bottom of it. My GoldenRod has been going strong for eleven or twelve years now. Hope this helps. |
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Sturdy safe- safe buying info Surf the rest of their site, as they have info in several areas. |
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The electronic locks seem to be hit-and-miss as far as reliability and function (from what I've read). Of course, thirty people will now post that they love theirs. Internally hinged doors are made so in order to make them "safer" against somebody trying to get in. Of course, another factor is how many reinforcing bars are inside the door frame which reinforce the door and safe walls, and how many sides they do this on. Did that make any sense? 
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I will give you a little piece of advice from a welder/Fabricator and safe owner. Remember that the door, lock, and hinges are ALL ignored when trying to get into a safe. Even the thickest gun safes are barely over an 1/8 in thick, and all are easily cuttable carbon steel. The weakest part of any safe is the corners of the box itself. Even if it was 1/4 plate (none are) a rotary risk grinder can go threw the corner of that safe with just a sanding disk quicker than you can imagine, and if needed, a cutting wheel would tackle anything else. I could peal the lid off of a 1/8 normal size safe in probably 10 minutes. And add that most are in the basement, which hids loud noises well, you can see how easy it is to get into a "safe". When i bought mine, i clad all the corners with 1/4 stainless (which doesn't disapate heat, preventing fast cutting and grinding) and then put a shackle so it can be chained to the floor (its faster to just take the safe in many instances. So with this said, you can spend huge money on a tin can that you think is safe, but in reality, its not NEAR as safe as you think it is. Get a good thick can, a normal lock, and who cares about the hinges, they only HOLD the door on when its open, as most doors have hinge side locking bolts. thats my 2 cents |
Internal hinges are bad. They are less durable, more complex, and often prevent removal of the door if necessary. You could cut the hinges off any decent safe with external hinges and be no closer to getting inside than when you started. Adding multiple moving dead bolts does not improve security, but adds complexity and makes it more likely you will have a problem with the door. As noted above, people don't try to cut through bolts, or force them. If they know what they are doing they go for the linkage from the combination box- where they can drill a small hole and use a punch to get in quickly, or else they go in through a side. Read the link posted above for stuff about important aspects of construction. |
+1 Your typical 10 rifle safe will only hold 8, if you have bolt rifles it gets worse. The other issue is most cheaper ones are good for carbines, but not full length bolt rifles, even 22" barrels. Electronic locks are fine, but no better (or worse) than chapman, or a dial. Don't put your safe in the basement. Good luck, JP |
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If you like you can buy a security door mount it in place of a closet door. If you live in an older house plaster walls are much harder to get through than a flimsy safe and or sheetrock. It takes a while and requires alot of noise to demolish a lathed wall. Of course if you live in a mass produced "paper thin" wallwed house this would not be recomended unless you could reinforce the walls. Then again, security doors can run you as much and many times more than a really good safe. Just an idea I have been contemplating myself. |
| Personally, a safe in the basement is good for one reason, house fires burn up, not down. If you go in a house that has a basement after a big fire, you would be surprised to see what lived. You can also bolt the safe to the floor, for resistance to removal, and even if its not bolted to the floor, going up stairs is one tough bit of work. Remember that if your a person with tools, to keep them under some sort of lock, don't want to give the criminal a oxy/acetelyne torch or a grinder to use, that would be a real shame. |
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graffundersafes.com/ As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Start at 1/4" steel body and go to 1" steel. Start at 1/2" plate doors and go to 1 1/2" plate door. No low end drywall fire protection. |
Safes keep honest people out. Buy firearm insurance. Think about a high quality security system for your home. Think about getting a motion activated OC gas system, with delayed detonation & keypad disarming, for inside your safe. False walls are a possibility. Enclosing a small area in your basement with concrete block, reinforcement rods, and filling with concrete is another option. Use a safe door for entrance, and false wall over that. You can also hang or put out really crappy, non-functioning rifles/pistols: Turk Mauser, Russian M91/30, shotgun...just about anything that looks like it shoots, but doesn't. Pukes think they get something and split. Most burglaries are quick; pukes want in/out quickly and leave scene. In the end, not much will stop a determined, professional thief...except lead to the head. |
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I have a Remington Safe, internal hinges, a few door bolts and the electronic lock, (with an external battery connection just in case). Not for commercial use. I view mine more as keeping the kids, prying eyes, and a way to be organized more then anything else. I have mine hidden in the basement, bolted in place with a small dome light inside it. You would have to do a fair amount of demo around the safe to cut into anything but the door. I figure well hidden and 'non'-moveable cuts 80% of the risk, being a PITA to pry / cut open adds another 5% and that's about all you can do. I spent 5+ years at a Regional Bank running their Properties. I've seen some pretty interesting things happen with larger and smaller vaults. All you are doing is buying time. Alarms and physical security are your best preventive measure. |
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This topic comes up about once every 3 months. What I did was to set a maximum amount of money you are willing to spend on a safe and then go from there. There isn't a safe on the market that can't be broken into so as long as you go with a reputable company you will be fine. Measure the largest opening you have in your house and get the largest safe that will fit in it. I think the statics show that you are more likely to have a fire in your house than have it broken into. When I was done, I wound up with a Liberty Lincoln 25. |
I have a Liberty 28 gun safe in a locked room in a locked house and I'm comfortable knowing I've done everything I can reasonably do. Most home burglars don't carry all the equipment needed to cut through the metal on a really good safe. They come in and take whatever they can and get out. The only way to keep your guns completely safe from a thief would be to put them in the wet concrete of your home's foundation and build your house over them.  |
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MANUFACTURE RECOMENDATIONS / WARRANTY?? Champion, Summit, Ft Knox, Graffunder, Amsec, Superior. FIRE PROTECTION RATING & MATERIALS? Dry wall is what most safes are out there. Your higher end safes like Graffunder, and upper ends of Amsec use a cement-based composite. GUAGE OF STEEL? 12-10ga you can take a axe to. tho 11 and 10 will take you a while. 3/16" or better going to take cutting tools. EXTERNAL HINGES? Looks. ELECTRICAL LOCK? Will fail, just a matter of time. OTHER INPUT PLEASE? What ever size you are looking for go two sizes bigger. I left Liberty out of the list. After 2002 they went to a 12ga steel door on all there models. And do not use a full wield on the back of there safes (3 2" wields). If you can find a used Liberty made in the mid 90s and older, you can get one hell of a safe. New ones just have the name in common. |
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I also have a Liberty Safe. My electronic lock has been reliable, no problems. But like others say, its more than just the safe. Where and how you arrange/secure the safe. What room you have the safe in. Is that room armed with motion sensors? Is your house have a proper alarm with a phone/data/sattelite connection? Is your collection is insured to its *replacement* value ? |
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As others have said, just about any safe can be broke or cut into if someone has enough time and tools. A residential security container safe is made to stop your average thief. It is not meant to stop a professional safecracker who breaks into bank vaults for a living. With that in mind, buy as quality of a safe as you can afford then put it in a a place that makes it difficult to get to. For example, if you can find a spot like a closet or limited access location where you cannot get at the sides this would enhance the security of your safe. A good idea would be to place your new safe in a closet with obstructed access to the sides and then build a very sturdy set of shelves that limits access to the top. When I installed mine I had to remove and rebuild a doorway to a closet and part of the wall to get it in place. The safe is also bolted to the floor. All this work made it so the only access to the safe is from the front unless someone was to start dismantling the walls in my home. The front of a safe is usually the sturdiest part. In my opinion, placement of the safe is almost as important as the brand. If located properly, most thieves are not going to want to spend the time or energy to get into your safe when your plasma TV and stereo are easier to grab and run with. I would also stick with conventional dial locks and not the digital. I have only seen one digital lock malfunction/break but that was enough to make me go with the traditional style. I have read that digital type locks are harder to break into but if someone is enough of an expert to manipulate the dial on my safe then I am hosed anyway. Fire protection to me was an important consideration. I got my safe with the upgraded 1700 degrees for 90 minutes fire rating. Then I took my Costco style smaller fire safe and put it inside my big safe. I now store my important documents and computer drive in the "safe inside a safe". I have no documented evidence that this doubles my fire rating, but I figure it can't hurt the fire rating. One final thought. Think about how you will buy and install your safe. I considered buying a Liberty from the local mega store but decided against it. Liberty looked like they built a nice safe. BUT, not only did all the safes there have the combo stickered to the front, but every $6 an hour meth head who worked there would have the knowledge that I just bought a safe and this was the address that it was delivered to. Or God forbid, the losers there delivered it and installed it themselves. I ended up buying my safe in another town an hour away, I paid cash, and I brought it home in the back of my truck covered with a tarp. I then installed it myself with the help of my brother. Did that little bit of opsec really help? I don't know.... but it made me happier. |
+1 for Sturdy safes. I've had one for about 15 years and it is sold as a rock. Definately check out their website before buying. Lots of interesting stuff about safes and theirs specifically. When I originally bought this safe I was young and didn't have the money for a fire resistant safe. That is something I wish I would have saved more for. Their safes are....well....STURDY! I would definatley buy one again. Definately buy one to two sizes bigger than what you think you need! That's what I did and I'm glad....of course now, 15 years later I need another one!?! |
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Thank you all for the info!! I over looked many areas. As the # of guns multiplys so does the concern for protection. I have over looked many things. Alarm systems, Motion Sensors, and HOLLY SHIT >>>>> FIRE ARM INSURANCE!!!! WTF... Why dont I have this? I am still young and in my first home, but wow I didnt know! I am in the market for a decent safe that is fairly large. As with every thing else there is so much research to do. but all in all it doesnt really matter because all safes are not safe they can be broken in to. Fire protection is the other issue, Is the concrete stuff better than gypsum/drywall?? Will it cause moisture?? or will the dehumidifier take care of that?? I am looking at Amsec, Fort Knox, Liberty.... but stearing away from liberty due to the welds(*prior post). UUUUGGHHHHHHHHHH?? |
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The thing about fire protection is some use drywall or gypsum because they say it works, period. Liberty has independent labs do testing, or so they say, and it works. I paid 2K for my liberty and that was the max I was willing to spend. Ya I could of bought a grauff. or fort knox but I am not rich. Another thing you want to look at is the ability to move the shelving systems around. For example, and if you look at those other pictures up there, you need long rifles in order to reach the cuts to hold them. Gun safes are not designed for AR, AKs, SBRs. What I did is use one shelve on the lower setting and throw my SBR, and M4 on that side and the longer guns on the other side. If you want your weapons to stand nice and neat, make sure you can adjust the shelving. |
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After watching THIS VIDEO I realized that given enough room and time to work a safe doesn't offer much more protection than a locked room. I bought a Dakota Safe. Yeah, it's a low-end safe (under $600) but offers quite a bit more security than my old "security cabinets." THe big plus for me is that you actually build this safe. You bolt it together (all the bolts/nuts are inside the safe) so I could build it into a space that it would be physically impossible to remove it in one piece. It simply cannot pass out through the door and the space is small enough there's no room for big pry bars. There's at least one other safe that you build. Zanotti Safes are a lot more expensive than the Dakota but probably offer a lot more security (and more size/configuration options). Put something like this in a closet and a thief would have little or no access to cut through the sides. A locked closet with a good, sturdy door would slow the thief down even more. |
I was going to buy one of those "sale" safes until I saw that video. Did the research and decided on the Amsec. Mine is butted up to a wall on 2 sides in a closet and bolted with 3/8" lag bolts through the hardwood, the subfloor, and a 1/8" piece of steel plate. I figured if they can't tip it over onto it's back, they won't be able to get as much leverage to pry it open. I ended up spending a lot more than I originally budgeted, but still only spent a fraction of what I have invested in my rifles and pistols. |
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MANUFACTURE RECOMENDATIONS / WARRANTY?? FIRE PROTECTION RATING & MATERIALS? Depends on your community and where in the the safe is stored. In a rural community in the basement, you'll want a higher degree of safety. In a urban area inside your garage, you'll need a little less. But at least get a minimal UL rating. GUAGE OF STEEL? Let your wallet make this decision. EXTERNAL HINGES? YES. Once the door is locked, the hinges serve no purpose, if the door has locking bolts on each side. An external hinge allows the door to open beyond 90°. Plus it serves as a distraction to the average smash and grab thief as he is likely to waste time attacking the hinges, which have no impact on the status of a locked door. ELECTRICAL LOCK? Yes. You set you own combination. Beyond that I say look into a Biometric lock, aka fingerprint. It is the quickest way to get into your safe. The drawback of an electronic is obviously a dead battery. Buy a lithium 9V and replace it annually, you will never wear it out. I've had the same one in my Cannon safe for 2 years. Another draw-back is using the same combo for a long period of time. A good thief can look and see which buttons are more worn than others. This will narrow down the possibilities and he might get lucky. Keep the buttons clean and if they get worn get new ones. OTHER INPUT PLEASE?Get a powered dehumidifier. Nothing degrades the value of your firearms like rust.
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| Got a cheap safe now and have been looking at them all because I want the next one I buy to be the last and after seeing the Grafunnder safes at my dealer I believe that it will be the next one I buy. It is closer to a commercial safe rating than a homeowner safe which I was told all had the same break in rating whether its a $600 OR A $5000 Fort Knox.If you have the opportunity to see them in person and compare to other quality safes in the show room you can really see the difference. Just my .02$ |
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As a fulltime firefighter and who also shoots a lot, I have to say I'm not as worried about the fire rating. 1700 degrees for 90 minutes is one HELL OF A FIRE. Basically your house is burning down to the ground. When considering fire protection, you have to consider where you live. If you live in a rural enviornment where the local fire department might be small, volunteer, or a ways away, then I might consider going with the higher rating. In most big cities, I'll go out on a limb and say that your safe will not be exposed to anywhere near those temperatures and times. Here in Vegas, we have great fire departments and good hydrants. I cannot imagine where a private home (not office building, commercial structure, etc) would burn for over 90 minutes straight. And 1700 degress is damn hot, way past flashover point. I went with 1200 degrees for 45 minutes. I have two stations each within a 4 minute window. Add another 3 minutes for them to turnout and another 5 (10 if they are really crappy FF's) to get water on the fire. Just something to think about when purchasing a safe. I went with a lower rating and got a bigger safe. Its all about trade offs. |
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Check out Rhino safes.For the money they seem to be a good buy,thicker steel and a higher fire rating than other safes in the price range.External hinges are better in my opinion,and the type of lock is a personal preference. As far as a safe in the basement,a neighbors house burnt down and all of the house fell into the basement making for a very nice fire pit where his gun safe was.Needless to say his insurance had to pay out for the guns and his will,etc.. were ruined. |
A regular $10 Axe from the hardware store can defeat most $1600 gun safes. If you own your home, take that $1600 and build a gun room. Concrete, iron bars, and 5/8 fire rated sheetrock along with FireStop for the seams is a much better solution. |
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I have a Browning Medallion safe and its pretty nice but my parents Liberty is finished better if that matters to you. We both went with the non electronic entry. How i have my safe arranged you cant really get to the sides or top without a little work but the front is open to attack. With that said if i had a house with room to make a dedicated room i would do like others have said and make a room. Especially if i were building a house. Block walls with poured concrete and rebar would be a must along with a concrete floor. The roof would really depend on how the house was built but concrete there would offer better fire protection and security. I do know that browning makes a vault door that looks like a door but i would be more apt to use a real door and inset a vault door behind it. With having a room you could make your workbench in there too so there would be a safe haven for the gun projects. As a selling point if you have kids it would keep them from getting into the weapons if they didnt respect them yet. It could also make a nice storm shelter. |
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Just bought the one from SAM's. http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=373882 Same safe as this one on thier site: http://www.granitesafe.com/silveradosafes.html They don't have the Winchester ones anymore. Selling the Granite Security. Paid $799 no interest for 6 months. Good looking safe. 60x30x22, 12/24 guns, 600 lbs, electronic lock, 50 min fire protection at 1200 degrees, 12 bolts in the door, nice gloss black. They loaded it in my pickup and me and four buddies got it off the truck and into the house with not much trouble. Getting off the truck was the worst. I'm very pleased! |
 Mine hasn't.... Not because a lack of want... more like a lack of $$$$ But likewise, buy big, buy once... Mines HUGE!Champion 41"x72 1/2"x27 1/2    Just my insight.. I love my electronic lock.. I can be into my safe in a matter of seconds, without fumble-fucking around with a manual combination... Just change your batteries yearly (or even 6 months if your worried about it) to avoid having no power when needing to gain access in a hurry. |
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read you posting on fire ratings. I am concerned with this issue. The folks at sturdy safes have lots of info on their site about the correct insulation technology. They say most of the schemes are not that good. They use a pretty hefty amount of fire glass and insulation. What is the highest temp your guns can stand without damage for instance? What will the temp inside the safe get to? These are my questions. Do you have any good references on this? |
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The only place I can put a safe is in my garage which has a non-insulated garage door... That is why I haven't upgraded from a locking cabinet which fits inside my home. So if I buy a safe I also have to upgrade to an insulated garage door to cut down on temperature and humidity changes. Any thoughts? I have seen some models which come in pieces you can put together but I'm a little apprehensive as to their reliability. |
Higher up this page, I mentioned two brands that you put together yourself. Like I said, I have the Dakota:
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