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gun gamers covers a lot of territory

just because some dude in a stage used it once doesn't mean it's any good

for all anyone knows, they could be trying it out just before they ditch it

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so if a guy choses the LPV path and becomes proficient at the 1x setting, is there any reason for a rifle with an RDS in his inventory?

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so if a guy choses the LPV path and becomes proficient at the 1x setting, is there any reason for a rifle with an RDS in his inventory?

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prevalence isn't an indicator of a quality

lots of folks use offset sights, lots of others don't use a secondary system at all

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so if a guy choses the LPV path and becomes proficient at the 1x setting, is there any reason for a rifle with an RDS in his inventory?

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RDS is much more forgiving of awkward shooting positions and still faster up close than a LPVO.

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And is over 1lb lighter.

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Yep. Walk with an LPVO for 12 hours straight then throw on an Aimpoint micro to replace it.

There's a difference

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Is this an absolute? In who's hands is a RDS faster than a LPVO?

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so if a guy choses the LPV path and becomes proficient at the 1x setting, is there any reason for a rifle with an RDS in his inventory?

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RDS is much more forgiving of awkward shooting positions and still faster up close than a LPVO.

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I believe I see what you're trying to ask. This isn't about force on force training per say, but more a dynamic, opposition based environment.

In that reality, even mediocre LPVOs dominate all other offerings for the vast majority of uses you may encounter. You will not get killed from using the NX8 or other LPVOs.

Let's rewind a bit. Force on force training with rifles is difficult when using UTM-type rounds due to the level of PPE required. At times, this is such a hindrance to firing a rifle that it becomes detrimental, and encourages 'point shooting', probably the worst thing you can possibly do in close proximity engagements. If a CBRN environment is your concern, simply raising the optic in question generally works well.

Here's a couple truths :

1. The fastest way to prevent injury or death is to kill an opponent faster than he can kill you. The probability of injury or death increases with reduced proximity - find emotional control by accepting this, and function in the best way possible : as an unemotional machine. Again, the fastest way to prevent injury or death is to shoot a bad guy in the face or high center chest as distance increases past your ability to do so. The best way to do this is to level sights on the target and move the trigger to the rear without exceeding your ability to hold within an acceptable area. How is that any different from any kind of shooting, competitive or otherwise? How does this allow for blind point shooting? Is that not extremely dangerous and irresponsible?

2. Its 2018, bro. Competitive shooting has been shown to have a direct correlation with marksmanship ability and skill in an opposition based environment. The ability to think ahead and game a 'stage' (or target...), the ability to see and cover dead space quickly to fill gaps and weapon downtime, the ability to push speed of weapon handling and manipulations, the ability to function under great pressure (self imposed), a deeply emotional and personal attachment to performance such as seeing sights and moving the trigger correctly (technical skills), etc... all this is learned in competitive shooting. Is anyone seriously going to argue at this point that these things don't help? Are we seriously going to argue at this point that the potential of incoming fire is supposed to dictate how I stand (example, the stupid concept of standing square to present plates... how about this - stand in a way that allows you to shoot bad dudes as fast and accurate as possible. Maybe?)?

Folks have GOT to get over this fallacy that competitive shooting is so different from combative shooting. If it truly was so, competitive shooters wouldn't be called upon time and again to fix DoD units' shooting and weapon handling ability. Having lived it in training and combat, I can unequivocally state that every competitive shooter I know that went to combat (even the 'okay' ones) outperformed those around him when the moment came. This applies to USPSA shooters, CMP rifle and pistol shooters, Multi-gun shooters (although shotgun is pointless in many ways) etc.

3. There is also a fallacy that 'special' people have some kind of special weapon requirements (and equipment, ammunition, etc.). Really? What is the difference in need between a Marine (non 03XX) with a truck bearing down on his checkpoint in Ramadi, a civilian in fear for his life during a nighttime burglary attempt, a DEVGRU assaulter sneaking through a house prior to compromise after a 15K foot movement on the outskirts of a city, or a gate guard defending an Air Force base? Once they raise a weapon to their shoulder, all differences go away in terms of basic weapon functionality and need. What changes is the assigned mission, the level of funding, the training given to them, and their mode of transportation to the target. All have a need for a weapon that hits what they aim at. All have a need for a weapon that doesn't fight them in that moment. All have a need for ammunition that performs terminally.

There is a completely antiquated way of thinking in that a fixed 4X optic is somehow simpler and better for most jobs. I hear 'durability' tossed around a whole lot. Most are referring to the ACOG family of optics.

Here's the truth about them :
- The internals break more often than any other optic I've seen, in greater numbers, in greater frequency. Durability of the housings is assumed to transfer to the adjusters and prisms. This is incorrect.
- Put one on a gunner's quadrant some day to do a tracking and repeatability test. You'll see areas of dead clicks, so the adjusters are not actually giving the shooter what they say they are. Also, the elevation and windage components track about as straight as Freddy Mercurie's sexuality. The optics do not hold zero under impact. So if the optic doesn't track and can't hold zero... how are you ever going to achieve a true zero and fire the weapon at another human being, guaranteeing a hit?
- The eye reliefs and eye box of these optics are criminally short and small. To those saying you can get sight alignment in these optics easier than in most LPVOs, your assumed knowledge exceeds your actual capability.

I just helped run an event testing this exact thing, among other things. Out of 21 shooters (4 cadre, 17 students of all ground combat backgrounds), all performed better from 0-600 yards with LPVOs (Nightforce, Vortex, Trijicon) than ACOGs 100% of the time. Inside of 50M, the ability to go to 1X (mandatory prior to assuming movement in event of a critical short range engagement) dominated fixed 3.5/4X shooters, and the ability to zoom in further dominated all RDS (Aimpoint M4 and T1) and fixed 3.5/4X shooters. It wasn't even close. Training to use MILs took about 15 minutes for all (GASP! Impossibru they say!!). Shooting most marksmanship standards at 7M with red dot illumination was no issue. If a shooter has a massive issue finding his eyeball even moderately behind the optic, an RDS acts as a bandaid in a training environment, masking the fact that they are mounting the rifle incorrectly.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/317179/IMG_3044-603845.JPG

Above - Dudes doing CQB having zero problems with a 1-6 and 1-8 LPVO

So what about the times the shooter could not shoulder the rifle? This is why we have other sighting systems such as daylight visible lasers (MAWL, NGAL, etc.). Simplicity for the sake of simplicity creates a one trick shooter that runs into SERIOUS trouble the moment they are put into a situation they are now ill equipped for. The 95% range of operations is best suited to a LPVO in the 1-8 range, with a 30-34mm tube, a cat tail/throw lever, and is a MIL based system (no math required to zero or convert figures. How's that for simplicity? Aimpoint T-Xs are in what again? 1/2 minutes? TA31F RCOs? 1/3 minutes and now in 1/10 MIL with neither an MOA or MIL reticle? See the point?)

I've even had to use magnification to see inside of buildings before (the only thing worse than risking my own death is killing an innocent. PID before you shoot, even if you eat it! Know your line of work..) Think about it - what's the longest shot a civilian shooter may take? 3-7M based on the FBI average you say? Well, newsflash, gunfights normally END there, they don't START there most times. Ever look down a Wal Mart aisle? A parking lot? What's the longest distance in your house? I guarantee its more than 3M. I am not saying you will need magnification in your house. I am saying that if you were to pick one tool, you pick the one that isn't going to hinder your performance from 0-600M.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/317179/IMG_2717-603847.JPG

A rare picture of yours truly. Again, having zero issues with a mini 1-8 in weird positions. That little optic has been used in CQB, at speed, without issues. Clearing closet spaces or shooting out of the shoulder, the VIS laser goes on. When NODs go down, the PEQ15 or MAWL take over completely.

So here's reality. If you will ONLY shoot this optic at 50M and in, an RDS may be for you - some Conventional, SOCOM and JSOC guys can get away with it due to their availability of external security (ie, other dudes with long guns and magnified optics). The moment (because force on force presumably isn't what you're buying an optic for per say) you have to shoot further, you want a MIL based 1-8X LPVO with daylight bright illumination. If you can, stick a T2/H2 forward of the 1-8 and 45 degrees offset. Let your mission drive the gear train. If you can, get dual tube NODs and a VIS/IR laser... this changes the entire discussion - the laser BECOMES your RDS, and in some cases can be faster than an enclosed optic. Can't see the laser dot in a room or in the open? Then you are in fact Ray Charles and may want to seek a different line of work.

That being said, I urge you to not buy into the baloney that competitive shooting is somehow detrimental to your survival in a fight, and contradictory to the rational development of combat capabilities. The exact opposite is normally true, with few exceptions (except for shotguns. They are stupid. Highly stupid.)

ACOGs are decade plus old technology and architecture. Elcans were a good step forward, but have their associated issues too (mounting, weight, bulk, tracking, etc.). RDS are great for 100% compromised shooting positions inside of 50M, but if you are planning to default towards compromised shooting positions, you already have a losing mentality and will pay for it during... well, Force on Force.

Some folks just need to get with the times and go train with folks that take them well beyond their decade old comfort zones...

Goodness! Rant off.

If you need anything, give me a shout.

S/F

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Is this an absolute? In who's hands is a RDS faster than a LPVO?

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you're obviously getting upset about something here, but i'm not sure what it is

i didn't say they were worthless or better, simply because people use them or don't use them doesn't mean anything

Daniel Horner doesn't use one

Jerry Miculek does off-and-on

Joel Turner does

people are different, anecdotal use isn't empirical data

if you like them, nobody's stopping you. have a blast, or thirty

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In what scenario are you taking shots at someone lying prone in a field, hidden?

SHTF? I'm disengaging almost every possible point to stay alive. The weight reduction of an RDS for me is worth the trade off of PID'ing someone at 400y I'd never have intention to engage.

If I'm putting 26 ounces on top of my rifle, it's going to be a thermal scope where there is true differentiation.

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Daniel Horner uses a LPVO.

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Everyone.  Give a shooter otherwise identical set ups and he'll be faster up close with the red dot.  Put a silhouette at 25 yards.  Break out the shot timer and see which setup allows you to get a center mass hit the fastest. Then start shooting from unconventional positions and see which one works best.  It will be the red dot.  The magnification of the LPVO isn't a benefit at close range, and its parallax, eye relief, and narrow eye box are detrimental.

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A LPVO doesn't belong on anything other than a spotter's carbine on a spotter/sniper team, designed to play defense of the position or add additional firepower to a spotter/sniper position.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 14.5" fighting carbine made to play offense.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 10.3" or 11.5" fighting SBR to play offense.

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A LPVO doesn't belong on anything other than a spotter's carbine on a spotter/sniper team, designed to play defense of the position or add additional firepower to a spotter/sniper position.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 14.5" fighting carbine made to play offense.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 10.3" or 11.5" fighting SBR to play offense.

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A. Then likely he sees me first. That’s not the time to scan with an LPVO to see who blasts whom first.

B. I move the fight to my advantage or leave

C. My REAP IR makes it an eventual bad bad day for him

I had a LPVO and liked it. For day time I’ll take a lighter RDS. Night time is NODS and heat signatures galore. I’ll take an LPVO over a fixed mag any day

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You can think that all you want.

A LPVO is never on the correct magnification power in real life when the fight starts.  Just because somebody does well with it in 3-gun doesn't mean that applies to the real world.

It is never as fast as a RDS.

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A LPVO doesn't belong on anything other than a spotter's carbine on a spotter/sniper team, designed to play defense of the position or add additional firepower to a spotter/sniper position.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 14.5" fighting carbine made to play offense.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 10.3" or 11.5" fighting SBR to play offense.

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A LPVO doesn't belong on anything other than a spotter's carbine on a spotter/sniper team, designed to play defense of the position or add additional firepower to a spotter/sniper position.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 14.5" fighting carbine made to play offense.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 10.3" or 11.5" fighting SBR to play offense.

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50 yard target that is concealed with some camouflage, in the shade, behind some cover- good luck seeing it, let alone hitting it.  Even just 2x or 3x magnification in this instance is a huge improvement over a 2moa red dot.

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A lot of you guys seriously need to buy a pair of binoculars. Talk about escalating a situation and probably putting yourself in trouble quick. Seriously carry some binoculars or a G33 magnifier that can be used to just look through or attached to a rifle if needed.

I'm amazed how many people want to identify other people by pointing rifles at them. WTF? If I were hiking/driving and someone was pointing a rifle at me, I would assume the worst and either shoot back or call the police depending on the situation. Pointing a rifle at someone to identify what/who they are and what they are doing is a very quick way to escalate a situation and probably get shot. You think you're better than them? you think they are alone? you think you're going to "win" in a gun fight? The best thing you can do is have binos, friends, a dog, food, water, phone, and a safe place to go. A rifle or handgun for serious DEFENSE of self/family, that's about it.

I've thought about this topic a lot because I've had to evacuate from hurricanes and I've seen flooding and bad stuff, but honestly the world isn't ending and mostly I was concerned about having a charger for my phone, laptop, a flashlight, wallet and cash, water, food, and my concealed G19 for DEFENSE. But I can't imagine carrying a rifle, you would draw a lot of attention and its not necessary.

I have also lived in Nevada for 10 years, so I understand some of these guys with the open land, but still, why not use binoculars?? When I'm driving out in the middle of nowhere just for fun, I bring a mk18 and a precision rifle, got a lot covered there, but I ALWAYS use binos to look out at other vehicles/animals/desert...whatever. I can't imagine pointing my rifle, thats nuts. And I dont want anyone pointing a rifle at me. I'm also always with at least two other guys who use rifles for work. I am very confident in our ability to protect ourselves, but I don't want to be in that situation. Why escalate things? why have people get hurt?

The only situation where I could see using a magnified optic is for defending your own home on a big piece of land, but again then this is not "bail out", this is you in your own home so might as well have a bunch of different stuff that fits every need.
"Bailing out" you are no longer defending your own home, so if you are using a rifle you are going to quickly be considered a threat by everyone. Maybe bail out with it in a backpack to then set up somewhere else to defend that, but again you're defending. Remember, the world is not ending, so when the dust settles you will have to defend your actions.

Defense, "Bailing out", do almost all = red dot.
Hunting = NF ATACR
Hiking while daydreaming about the world ending or whatever fantasy = LVPO, PEQ15, M600, beta mag, VFG, backpack with 8 mags and no water.

Quoted:
A LPVO doesn't belong on anything other than a spotter's carbine on a spotter/sniper team, designed to play defense of the position or add additional firepower to a spotter/sniper position.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 14.5" fighting carbine made to play offense.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 10.3" or 11.5" fighting SBR to play offense.

Quoted:
A LPVO doesn't belong on anything other than a spotter's carbine on a spotter/sniper team, designed to play defense of the position or add additional firepower to a spotter/sniper position.

A LPVO doesn't belong on a 14.5" fighting carbine made to play offense.

A LPVO doesn't belong on an 10.3" or 11.5" fighting SBR to play offense.

Quoted:

You can think that all you want.

A LPVO is never on the correct magnification power in real life when the fight starts.  Just because somebody does well with it in 3-gun doesn't mean that applies to the real world.

It is never as fast as a RDS.

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I consistently put up times on up close drills faster with lpvos than I do with red dots. Also have had zero issues working vtac boards with lpvos in and out of gear.

RDS rifles' only advantage for me is that they are lighter.

This was my recent Run N Gun rifle and it was amazing.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1874/30962985778_ad6b807d2b_k.jpg20180908_170019 by B A, on Flickr