......... says the dude that attempts to throw a sly comment in, trying to paint me like some sort of idiot for suggesting a very good optic, linking (2) threads that have nothing to do with what Im talking about. I gave the OP a suggestion for what he / she is looking for, provided quality info and facts about the optic, the options, warranty differences etc..............all you do is come in here like a middle school bully, beat your chest about owning one of the cheaper Aimpoints, and attempt to make a sarcastic point with incorrect evidence and then fail lol

OP.....the Sig Romeo 5 is very good for the money....they can be had at Brownells right now for $129, lifetime warranty on housing and 5yrs on electronics

I ran two for awhile, one on an AK (put about 600 rounds through it - 7.62x39) and the other on my Mossberg 500 (about 50 buckshot and 30 slugs).........They held zero, the dot was sharp, the glass was clear for the most part (ill get to that in a second), and the housing basically disappeared when running it both eyes open due its stealthy kind of lines on the body.

As far as the glass being clear: Indoor ranges, outside, around the house it was VERY clear unless you had the sun directly behind you (or your in a standard home / apartment height hallway and a bright light is right behind you).........then it had a red reflection that sliced through the glass diagonally...............you could still see through it just find, just slightly distracting

The Holosun 503GU did not exhibit that in the same exact angle / lighting, so I switched out the Sig Romeo 5's to the Holosun im suggesting since I liked the 65MOA circle dot the Holosuns offered anyway

EDIT: actually tigwelder, enjoy your evening man.  lets not cloud up OPs thread any further with difference of opinion

OP: heres a little trick if you dont already know.  Whichever optic you decide on, find it on botach and "make an offer". When they come back to you with their best price via email, go to optics planet live chat and tell them you have an offer from a competitor in writing and they will usually match it................When I bought the new 503GU Elite, optics planet had it at $271 with "free 2 day air shipping".........eventually they got down to $237.........botach had offered it to me at $217, showed the email to optics planet and they matched it......got the much better price through the much better company

Some people can afford 3 T2's...

Some people like the best you can buy

Have a link for that USSOCOM claim? I think I remember approval for the LCO....

Like the paint job.

And your link leads to a story about a broken refurb optic

Something I'd like to point out - Eotech's are "Duty Grade" but I'd trust about anything else including PA, Vortex, Holosun, even TRS25 more then them.  Take it for what it's worth.. just my opinion based on countless reviews over the years but Eos have the most percentage of problems based on everything I have read.

And I keep saying this but I think most just overlook it because it doesn't go along with their train of thought and argument.  BACK UP IRONS!  If you have them then why do you have to have the toughest red dot out there?  It isn't exactly gambling with your life if you have iron sights as well... and the chances of your Holosun or Sparc or whatever dying on you the few minutes of a firefight and not the many days/months/years you used it at the shooting range or patrolling the area or whatever is pretty slim to start with.

I get why people buy Aimpoints, if I was wealthy and money didn't matter I would likely put them on more rifles.  I am not wealthy so I have no problem running cheaper sights even on self defense guns since they would have back up irons no matter what.  I guess it just gets to me that so many people act like you are going to die if you don't have an Aimpoint and that you are just risking your life based on the quality of the cheaper optic and fail to include the fact that there is also iron sights involved for that what if scenario.  Not ideal I know, and I'd rather have a red dot then irons but they are proven and on the 1 in a million chance you need them they are there.

I do the exact same thing.  Setting 10/12 on my ML2.

In my experience, you waste a lot of money on cheap optics and on BUIS.  Years ago I bought a Bushnell red dot for a 10/22.  Compared to an Aimpoint it had inferior battery life, brightness, lens quality, etc. and it actually stopped working properly within a month.  So I was out the money for the optic, the money for the ammo, my time, etc.

BUIS adds a lot of complications.  A quality one or a set will run you between about $50 and $150.  Then you need to decide how you are going to sight it in.  You will have a zero for your BUIS with the optic off the gun and a zero for it with the optic on the gun, which will probably be different than lining your BUIS up with the dot due to parallax.  Just moving the dot to line up with the BUIS is inappropriate.  You need to decide now if you need a QD mount for your optic, which might cost you more.  Whenever you pick up your rifle you will be inclined to check the BUIS, play around with it, make sure it folds right, etc. which is a distraction.  You need to carefully zero it, which will require you to expend some ammunition ($$$).  If you make a modification to your AR (new handguard or something), and you might have affected the zero, you need to repeat the entire process.  And even after you've done all this you have a back-up sighting system that is inferior to your red dot because you can't see it in the dark.

Alternatively buy a $250 Aimpoint from the EE, put it in a simple non-QD mount like on from Aero Precision, torque the screws to the appropriate level, put some spare batteries in your gun, and be done with it.  If you need BUIS use the Aimpoint like a big ghost ring for the rear and the FSB for the front.

I don't care how expensive or great the red dot is on my gun I will always have backup irons so that doesn't cost me anymore to have them no matter what optic I go with.  I just wouldn't trust a self defense rifle no matter the optic without iron sights there as well.  And it really isn't that complicated to just sight the rifle in without a red dot on it, should take less then a box of ammo to get a pretty good zero.  If you ever need to use it in a pinch and you don't have time to flip the QD lever on the red dot chances are you don't need a sight anyways because your target is so close but if you do the zero isn't going to be off enough to hit what you are aiming at.

Right now all but one of my guns have a fixed FSB as that is what I like, but the other one with the Troy Alpha has a fixed LMT front sight on the front.  Not a big fan of flip front sights, but they are better then nothing.  On the rear it's a toss up for me on fixed DD,cut carry handles or flip up Troy,KAC ones.  I don't have the desire to fiddle with them all the time to check function - they just work like they are suppose to and IDK why they wouldn't.

You shouldn't write off all cheaper red dots just based on your past experience with a bad optic of a certain type.  The Holosuns I have are clearer and more crisp then all of the Aimpoints I have used, I figure the T2 is up there with them if not better though I just haven't had the chance to use one yet.  Battery life is also just as good at 50k hours, an ADM QD mount will set you back about $50-60 used here on the EE which most people put on their Aimpoints as well.  For me all the costs would be the same no matter if I used Aimpoint or Holosun etc., all except the red dot itself that is.

Not knocking what you like, just saying things aren't really as bad as you make them out to be - At least not for me.  Everyone has different experiences and opinions on what works for them though.  And as I said I can understand why others choose Aimpoint if they have the money to put them on all their rifles.  I'd likely put an Aimpoint on my main go to rifle if it had an ACSS style reticle like my PA Holosun does but I doubt that ever happens.  I just don't feel under gunned without the top name brand and wouldn't have an issue using it for whatever scenario came up.  As crazy as it sounds I prefer the Holosun ACSS on my main go to gun over any of my Aimpoints due to the reticle itself - it's just much quicker for me to get on target and put rounds where they need to be.  It is also an amazing reticle with my 6x magnifier I throw behind it sometimes as it has bullet drops out to 600 yards for when I wanna have a little fun out at some distance.  I know it's not the best optic out there but it's plenty good enough and I'd trust it over an Eotech anyday of the week which people have used for decades now in harms way.

This isnt a thread for those "some people"........this is a thread asking about small $250 red dots, which even then, the large Aimpoint PRO is not

Correct.......my link is about the correct model (unlike the reference that was made toward me) , the Aimpoint Pro, breaking AFTER it already broke hence why it was a refurb.......that means it broke twice, and AFTER Aimpoints "top knotch" guys rebuilt it.........prettty fitting

Primary Arms with mount for <$200. a couple different ones to choose from

yes wow, your still in a $250 red dot thread that has nothing to do with your economy aimpoint pro, contributing nothing at all to the topic at hand?

Soldier Systems reported a while back that USSOCOM had determined that five optics met its durability and performance criteria for replacement of the EOTech red dots and were being evaluated for final decision.  To my knowledge they have never reached or have never reported the final outcome.

They were:  Aimpoint’s T2, Leupold’s LCO and Delta Point PRO as well as Trijicon’s MRO and SRS.

Can't find the link now but could probably "Google" it.

Of course, none of these are in the price range of OP's post, but my point was and is that Aimpoint is not the only duty grade red dot as someone suggested above.

Link to Atlantic Firearms

$140 and a lifetime warranty.  What else do you want?

My LGS swears by them.

Forgot about Sig Romeo 5's.  I have 4x of them on various Buckmarks/Mark series pistols.  For some reason, I can acquire targets faster using them than FF III reflex sights.  If I am not mistaken, they are made by Holosun as well.

I used several APs in the military that were POS. That being said, who knows how much abuse they suffered before they even ended up being issued to me. They did not hold zero and had terrible battery life (granted, this was 07,08,09) I’m sure AimPoints have changed quite a bit. EOTechs were a bit better, but apparently a lot of people on here don’t like them. I never had a single problem issue with any of the EOTechs I’ve used, and I have one on my HD rifle right now. I own Holosuns, DI Optical, MRO, EOTECH, and two Vortex optics (spark AR and Strikefire II). I do not own and will probably never own an AimPoint, especially at the prices they charge.

Anyway, the OP asked about budget optics, that are small and cheap. I would recommend Holosun. I have a HS515C on a Tavor. Another optic I’ve also had good luck with is the DI Optical RV2. It doesn’t the best battery life though, and is fairly large (about the size of an AP PRO).

BTW, I’ve even reading forums on this page for years and I have only posted several times.

For HD use... You just need a reliable red dot with an always on dot, and plenty of battery life.

Something like the PA Advanced Micros, works fine for that. Reliable enough that you don't need to worry about them crapping out, and tough enough to handle a bit of abuse.

HD isn't a combat environment. You don't need extensive waterproofing and beat it with a hammer ruggedness.

Plus, even if the dot does crap out, at HD distances, using the red dot like a giant ghost ring, works fine.

I don't recommend Vortex red dots for HD on battery life alone. They also have automatic power down, based on a timer. No go on a HD rifle for me... Always on, or motion activated if I can't get always on.

So if you are on a budget... Go with a PA... Or the Sig Romeo, as I hear good things about them.

That being said, all of my serious rifles have Trijicon or AP optics. And if the budget allows, I always recommend the AP PRO or Trijicon MRO for HD use. (I do not recommend the AP ACO, price is too close to the superior PRO)

The MRO would be my top recommendation, as I prefer the smaller size, but the exposed zero adjustments give me a bit of a pause... I have not read any reports of the exposed adjustments causing issues, but I haven't really looked very deep into it. Just the reviews and reports on the forums and some youtube vids. So in the end, it ties with the PRO for recommendation, and the PRO may have a bit of an edge, due to lower cost.

(And I know the OP has already made their choice, but others may come looking in the future)

For $250?

Di Optical RV1

Built like a tank by an actual military grade optics company.



http://www.primaryarms.com/di-optical-raven-rv1-32mm-red-dot-sight-2-moa-rv1

Optics planet has "demo" units and with the 12% off code from this site it is about $170 delivered.  I ordered one to try.

I will.   I had a friend run one, and his only complaint was the screws for the one he had holding the optic to the base were not loctited (I forget which DI model it was), but this is common with other brands and he should have loctited it before sighting in and going to the match.  In the Henderson Defense optic thread they ran them without issue on machineguns, but had an issue with the company so sent them back.

For what it is worth, PrimaryArms has always shipped everything fast.   OpticsPlanet was very slow in shipping my order.   They also canceled another order saying the item was not in stock, offered me a 5% off coupon to replace the 12% off one time use coupon I burned, and then a few days later sent me an e-mail saying the item which was out of stock is suddenly back but at an inflated price.   Therefore, I DO NOT RECOMMEND OPTICSPLANET TO ANYONE, but it was worth ordering for shits and giggles to throw on a very inexpensive build.

P.S.

If you get any Klingon disruptors in, please let me know.   Do they need to ship to an FFL since technically they are not a firearm?

The OP didn’t ask for duty grade. He asked for sub $250. Reading truly is fundamental.

OP, Sig Romeo 5 and the PA are both great choices. You tube has great torture test on them.

We all have opinions.  And for many, just a little time can take a budget of 250.00 and make it 350.00.  Why not wait and get something better?

Yep...  Though I'm really impressed w/the Trijicon MRO's FOV...not hating on Aimpoint (I've got five M4s), but the MRO's FOV is something else.

Because I have 30 plus firearms and at least a third of them need this or that.  Some of them are outfitted with with no expense but others I stick to a budget.

Discounting an M2/M3 due to size in this application isn't reasonable.  Neither is ruling it out over 50 bucks plus or minus.

Used full size Aimpoint is the way to go hands down for a bedside rifle if you're looking to spend as little as possible.

Nothing just happened.

Acceptable quality mid-tier red dots - of which I believe there are now quite a few good ones - have simply not been around long enough to have a proven track record.    That will probably change in the near future, but the near future isn't now.

The average citizen using a red dot on a home defense firearm will likely go very long periods of time without shooting it, checking zero, or checking that it even functions.   That is precisely when you want reliability.

On an HD rifle I'd worry less about smashing against trees and more about falling down in a closet.  People drop their stuff and bang it into stuff way more often than they'll admit.

Aimpoint micros are way overpriced, but they still sell them because people with pocketbooks are willing and able to pay for the reliability coupled with the small size.    If you can't, then a PRO/M2/M3 is the next best thing for half the price (or less, used).

Nothing wrong with throwing one Aimpoint on a rifle and then picking something else for the rest of them.

In what way is FOV important on these?   They are non-magnifying and are (in theory) shot with both eyes open.

FOV is constantly misused in this sub forum. He’s referring to the size of the ocular/objective lenses which can be more forgiving in finding the dot.

Would love to see that video. If done well it should be tacked

The eternal brand debate, they're all the same.  When it comes to firearms and accessories, there is generally duty grade and hobby grade.  It's up to each individual to decide how much "duty" grade one needs, or more likely wants.  If money were no object, these decisions are almost always easy and obvious.  That should tell you something when it comes to brand debates.  But, money is almost always a concern, so the discussions and brand debates rage on.  Everyone knows which brands and products are superior, but most will simply chime in to extoll or defend their own purchases in hopes of affirmation or assimilation.   After all, the more people that agree with us or follow us, the better we feel.  Affirmation and assimilation.  There is no other rational explanation as to why people will go on for hours, days, even years trying to convince total strangers on the internet to see things their way.  But I digress, so back to RDS optics...

Generally accepted RDS truths:

There is Aimpoint, Eotech, and some would say Trijicon.

Then there is everything else.

Determine your wants vs needs vs budget, make your choice, and live with it.   If a $140 RDS works for you, great, it will probably serve you well within it's intended scope of use.  That said, the Voltron Strike Ninja 2000 or other budget RDS is not an Aimpoint or Eotech with a decade of use in combat by line units.  If you want or need that level of proven reliability and toughness, then spend the money and buy it.

I have owned 3 DI optical products. Each one has been beaten, slammed, submerged, and impacted against trees as a self directed confidence test. They have been frozen, overheated via heat gun, and generally tossed about without loss of function.

Mil std 810g tested and for a far better price than aimpoints and many other "hobby" red dots.

In use by korean military. In use by the US on crew served weapons.

I trust these optics with my life and I can afford to outfit multiple rifles with them.

I would ask shooters on a budget to strongly consider them.

Just be sure to use loctite on the mount before you take it out. Thats my only gripe.

I meant your terminology video