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Posted: 8/3/2015 4:58:55 PM EDT
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So I just built my first complete ar.. Has a Yankee hill barrel, dpms float tube, Anderson recievers, etc etc... I put a tasco world class scope on it (yeah yeah I know the thing about cheap scopes).. So anyways I went to the range this morning to break the barrel in (forgoty damn cleaning kit but had at least a bore snake in there). Took a couple shots and they were off paper, finally found where it was shooting and adjusted the scope accordingly. Could NOT get this thing to group. Would shoot 6" left, 8" right, then one in the bullseye, etc.. So basically shooting about the size of a large dinner plate.. And this was all at only 50 yards. I'm positive the barrel is tight. Torqued to 30 lbs, backed off, and re torqued. Repeated this 3 times then did a torque again at 30, then moved tighter to the next hole that the gas tube would fit thru, so I'm estimating about 60 lbs... Is this just a simple sign of a bad scope? I took it off and remounted it to make sure it wasn't something I did while mounting, but I have a cheap barska on my .22 squirrel gun that I know holds zero well, may swap them out to eliminate it. Ammo used was 20 rounds of American eagle and then 20 rounds of armscor.
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| Just went to scheels and got some p series mounts from Nikon.. I'll try them to see if its in the mounts, if not I'll switch scopes. The only thing I can think otherwise is when I put the muzzle brake on.. But I only had to turn it about 1/4 turn to be aligned and the barrel seems centered in the float tube. |
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Before we start blaming equipment, can we examine the shooter?
OP, you say this is your first AR....how much rifle experience do you have? What if any front and rear support were you using? What was your shooting position? ETA: Yes, I saw your .22 in the OP...but still ETA2: I ask, not to be condescending, but because if you were shooting unsupported, a 12" group for a new shooter wouldn't be so horrible. (wouldn't be so great either...but still...) |
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Do you have irons? If so shoot with them and see how it groups.
I will not buy anything gun related made in China if I'm serious about good results. I have a Primary Arms red dot that I put on the cheapest AK47 money could buy because I feel a low quality cheaply made rifle doesn't deserve anything better. Your scope, the base and rings are all suspect. M193 and M855 ammo, especially foreign made copies, is the least accurate ammo on the market. Even the USA made Winchester, Federal etc. M193 is probably sold to the civilian market because it failed acceptance for use by the Armed Forces. The military has a mean rounds accuracy test that all ammo must meet to be placed into inventory. What do you think the companies do with ammo that fails the test? Junk it at a loss or sell it the civilian market for a profit? I have not purchased any ammo other than .22 rimfire, .25acp and .32acp for over 30 years. Quality bullets shoot like crazy. Sierra Match Kings would be my first recommendation. Buy some from Black Hills, Federal or Outback and give it a try. Quality ammo makes all the difference in the world. |
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Quoted:
Do you have irons? If so shoot with them and see how it groups. I will not buy anything gun related made in China if I'm serious about good results. I have a Primary Arms red dot that I put on the cheapest AK47 money could buy because I feel a low quality cheaply made rifle doesn't deserve anything better. Your scope, the base and rings are all suspect. M193 and M855 ammo, especially foreign made copies, is the least accurate ammo on the market. Even the USA made Winchester, Federal etc. M193 is probably sold to the civilian market because it failed acceptance for use by the Armed Forces. The military has a mean rounds accuracy test that all ammo must meet to be placed into inventory. What do you think the companies do with ammo that fails the test? Junk it at a loss or sell it the civilian market for a profit? I have not purchased any ammo other than .22 rimfire, .25acp and .32acp for over 30 years. Quality bullets shoot like crazy. Sierra Match Kings would be my first recommendation. Buy some from Black Hills, Federal or Outback and give it a try. Quality ammo makes all the difference in the world. I'd have to respectfully disagree as buying and shooting $1/rd Black Hills is a quick way to get disenfranchised with the hobby/sport and leave. OP, bulk M193 should do 3-4MOA out of most rifles. Some will do better, some worse. I'd recommend you ditch the cheap scope and rings and try it with irons. I think you'll be surprised. Oh, and get training if you haven' already. It's one of those things nobody believes until they've done it, but 2-4days spent at a good school or course will save you thousands of dollars and lots of frustration. Get good training early, and the law of primacy in training will be on your side. ETA: To answer your question, it sounds like your mounting system is suspect. I had a friend experience that exact same issue. I reached over and wiggled his scope and he went "Ohhhhhhhh!" 
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| Also how much did you tighten the rings around the scope tube? I had a scope that wouldn't hold zero and adjustments were all over the place. I used a caliper and measured the scope tube at the rings, come to find out the scope tube was bent in from one of the rings being too tight... |
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I own several rifles, nothing special but able to get great groups out of all of them (.223, .243, .308). My marlin model 60 .22 with a $30 barska scope out shoots this AR at 50 yds. I'm shooting with a bipod, on a bench, proper position (loose arm folded under)
Went out with a buddy today, he got his first AR not too long ago (dpms oracle with a wal mart scope) and he's shooting circles around me. To rub it in he tells me about the coyote he shot at 200 yds with it last week. So anyways the gun grouped slightly better. By better i mean approx. Palm sized groups, them I would get an occasional flyer. I did manage to get about a 2-2.5" 4 shot group then the 5th shot went about 2.5-3" away from that group. I was dumbfounded, because I focused hard to get that 5th shot to group. This was all at 50 yds while my buddy was rag holing his bullseye all day with a stock dpms. So I'd say it was a slightly better day, but not the best. These mounts are definitely sturdier. So I'm now wondering if it isn't a mount AND scope problem, or a problem with the barrel. I broke it in per instructions but a Yankee hill barrel should shoot great at 50 yds whether proper break in or not. As for tightening, tightened even criss cross pattern, at approx. 25 in lbs. I do not have anything to measure torque but I'm a machinist and I change my tooling every day from 15-30 in lbs, so I have a feel for what it is. All your guy's help is appreciated, BTW. |
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Quoted:
I own several rifles, nothing special but able to get great groups out of all of them (.223, .243, .308). My marlin model 60 .22 with a $30 barska scope out shoots this AR at 50 yds. I'm shooting with a bipod, on a bench, proper position (loose arm folded under) Went out with a buddy today, he got his first AR not too long ago (dpms oracle with a wal mart scope) and he's shooting circles around me. To rub it in he tells me about the coyote he shot at 200 yds with it last week. So anyways the gun grouped slightly better. By better i mean approx. Palm sized groups, them I would get an occasional flyer. I did manage to get about a 2-2.5" 4 shot group then the 5th shot went about 2.5-3" away from that group. I was dumbfounded, because I focused hard to get that 5th shot to group. This was all at 50 yds while my buddy was rag holing his bullseye all day with a stock dpms. So I'd say it was a slightly better day, but not the best. These mounts are definitely sturdier. So I'm now wondering if it isn't a mount AND scope problem, or a problem with the barrel. I broke it in per instructions but a Yankee hill barrel should shoot great at 50 yds whether proper break in or not. As for tightening, tightened even criss cross pattern, at approx. 25 in lbs. I do not have anything to measure torque but I'm a machinist and I change my tooling every day from 15-30 in lbs, so I have a feel for what it is. All your guy's help is appreciated, BTW. OK....well, assuming we've eliminated you, the shooter, as a variable (although I'd still like to see you using a rear bag for this purpose)... You need to try shooting the rifle with your other (or any other) scope asap, so we can eliminate the rifle itself as the next variable. I'm not quite sure if you're using the UTG mount or the Nikon mount at this point, but either way once you eliminate the rifle, you can move on to swapping out and testing the scope and mount(s). Looking forward to an update... |
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Got a better group today, any way to load a pic off your phone or do you have to use a website for it? AR15.com does not allow for direct uploads. You need to use a hosting site like http://photobucket.com/ (free) For more info on how to upload photos to ARFcom, read here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/876558_.html |
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Got a better group today, any way to load a pic off your phone or do you have to use a website for it? What ammo are you using? An average barrel shooting average ammo should shoot around 3 MOA. If you have a below average barrel (if assume Yankee hill would group roughly average), or substandard ammunition (tulammo, the 'bears', wolf, etc) expect that to open up to 4 or even more MOA. This is if you're doing everything correctly, any fault in your shooting will cause it to open up from there. I wouldn't trust UTG further than I could throw a midget, but under light range use it would probably hold up fine assuming it arrived functional in the first place. A good trigger will help you a ton also. |
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Used American eagle 55gr FMJ today. Ditched the tasco scope, when I took it off and held it by the optic end, and tapped the Bell end with my other finger it had a twang inside like a spring was in there... Guessing that's not good. Put my $30 barska scope off my old .22 on, and I shot this group, guessing I need better glass (this one doesn't view well in the sun and heat).. The bullseye on this target is approx 1.5-1.75" across, so I figure this at about a 1-1.25" group.. Which would put me around 2 MOA correct? (This was all again at 50 yards) and I was shooting off my cheap Caldwell rest, not bags.
I am shooting an ALG ACT trigger with their lighter "4.5lb" spring installed. Its still a little heavy. I think with some better glass and nice large bags I could do somewhat better. http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w679/herzberg123/20150807_151423_zpsdpunmfjc.jpg |
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http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b555/Hollywood_Shooter/arfarf_zps2fpmqghh.jpg You're at 50-yards, so your group spread is actually 2.736 MOA....still, an improvement!  Considering I'd estimate a ballpark 3 MOA pattern if you shot a full ten round group to improve statistical significance, a group with less rounds grouping around 2.7 MOA is right in line with expectations. If you want much better you'll need to upgrade ammo, barrel, optics, trigger, or all. A nice stainless barrel, black hills/hornady match, American eagle varmint, or higher-end optic will shrink it down quite a bit if that's what you're after. ARs are combat rifles intended to hit people within the range of a .223. They can be made to do much more, but in their standard configuration, the results you're getting is all I'd expect out of them. ETA: If PSA is still doing their sale, pick up some of the American Eagle 50gr varmint ammo they were selling for <$6/20rds. For the price, it's possibly the best shooting ammo you can get. Hornady steel match 55gr is roughly .32 cents per round, and is also top notch MOAish ammo, though I can only personally vouch for the 75gr loads. I think you'll find your group shrink noticeably, and it's not much more or possibly cheaper than what you have been shooting. |
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I have some boxes of the American eagle varmint, I'll try them. Plan on getting a little better scope as well.. Lotta good deals on Nikon's right now, they've never let me down. What do you guys recommend for a trigger? Something under $120 if possible I'd spend a little more and get a Geissele (sp?). I was very hesitant when I was considering purchasing, but I've had my SSA-E for about 5 years now, it's easily the best single AR investment I made, and I'm very glad I went with it. Check the used lower parts EE section you'll find some good deals if you're half-patient. They completely take trigger press out of the shooting fundamentals for me. Just press and it cleanly and lightly breaks every time, too easy. The hardest part is adjusting back to a standard gritty mil-spec trigger after being so spoiled. |
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How did you get my picture to post on the thread? I copied your picture that you posted in the thread to my desktop, then I ran it through the analysis software (called "OnTarget"), then I resaved the 'marked up' version, then uploaded it to a photo hosting site (Photobucket) and then embedded the link in my post. EZ-PZ. |
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I'd spend a little more and get a Geissele (sp?). I was very hesitant when I was considering purchasing, but I've had my SSA-E for about 5 years now, it's easily the best single AR investment I made, and I'm very glad I went with it. Check the used lower parts EE section you'll find some good deals if you're half-patient. They completely take trigger press out of the shooting fundamentals for me. Just press and it cleanly and lightly breaks every time, too easy. The hardest part is adjusting back to a standard gritty mil-spec trigger after being so spoiled. Quoted:
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I have some boxes of the American eagle varmint, I'll try them. Plan on getting a little better scope as well.. Lotta good deals on Nikon's right now, they've never let me down. What do you guys recommend for a trigger? Something under $120 if possible I'd spend a little more and get a Geissele (sp?). I was very hesitant when I was considering purchasing, but I've had my SSA-E for about 5 years now, it's easily the best single AR investment I made, and I'm very glad I went with it. Check the used lower parts EE section you'll find some good deals if you're half-patient. They completely take trigger press out of the shooting fundamentals for me. Just press and it cleanly and lightly breaks every time, too easy. The hardest part is adjusting back to a standard gritty mil-spec trigger after being so spoiled. +1 for GEISSELE TRIGGERS --- They're worth the $. I prefer their SSA-E and their Hi-Speed National Match Designated Marksmen triggers myself. Geissele makes a variety of triggers for every purpose. Timney also makes great AR triggers too. ETA: If you're considering the SSA trigger (not the SSA-E), you might also want to consider another great trigger: The LaRue Tactical MBT.....fantastic trigger and an excellent value. ETA2: If your budget is hindering you, a lower cost trigger that's really smooth, but a bit heavier pull, is the ALG Defense ACT (it's made by Geissele's wife's company) |
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I have the ACT trigger already installed.smooth but still slightly heavy.
As for the photo, I put the link in my post, and it just posted the link (yes I clicked the image button first As for scopes, I have it narrowed down j think to a Nikon buck master, vortex crossfire 2, or redfield revenge. Nikon's warranty is junk compared to the other 2, and the more reviews I read about the vortex crossfire 2 makes me not want one. However I can get a Nikon buck masters for around $100 right now. Opinions? |
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Of those three, the Buckmaster would be my choice. Redfield Revenge or Vortex Crossfire II, no. Chinese. However, Redfield Revolution and Vortex Diamondback are much better and still budget priced.
A good read: Ilya knows his stuff. http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=77 |
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