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Posted: 4/11/2011 5:22:47 PM EDT
| I recently purchased a primary arms M3 red dot that came with the mount. I went and sighted it in today at 25 yards and then went out to 50 yards. My question is this; how type of groups do people get with there red dots? And, how much difference would an eotech or aimpoint give me if any? My bull barreled AR with my 4X16 scope get sub MOA with no problem. I just wanted to try a red dot for the fun of it. By the way, I was getting an honest 5" group at 50 yards. I guess I was just wanting a tighter group. Anyway, thanks ahead of time for the input. |
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Red dot accuracy is tougher than with a regular scope. The problem is repeating your aiming point. Different targets help sometimes, practice holding the same with the dot...
It also depends on your dot. if you got the regular PA M3 you don't have a tiny dot so you have to treat it like a large front post on iron sights. The way I see it, if I'm using a red dot I'm less concerned with a tight group and more concerned with the bullet going where the dot is. Meaning, minute of DOT rather than minute of angle. If I'm shooting far enough out that the dot completely covers the target I'm going to be holding over the target so I can align using the lower edge of the dot. All that said, for me it really depends on the targets, some targets are a REALLY big pain in the butt for precise use of a dot, others work well. The way I play with my dots for accuracy is with pop ups and steel plates, I don't care about the group, if the shot does the job it's on target, if the plate doesn't ring or the popup fall, I missed. |
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I have an eotech and a PA M3 at 50 yards I group at around 3 1/2 with both. I am not a marksman by any means.
As far as shooting better with the eotech I would say not really.the glass is clearer on it and it is faster. But the primary arms is a good red dot scope for what it is. I have found with both if I use a 2" bulls-eye target center my groups are tighter. You gotta take into consideration the groups you are shooting would still be a headshot at that distance.. I'd say put several hundred rounds through the M3 and see if you get used to it... I know I did. |
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So far, my best average to center group unmagnified is .575 MOA (200 Yards): http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=203007 |
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The problem is how ppl site in their RDS. Here's how I do it. It gives better accuracy and works better at distance too. Do not try to cover the center of your target with the center of your dot. You are just guessing. Sight in so the 12 oclock position of your dot is your point of impact. At 100 yards use a target with a black circle with around an 8 to 12 in. diameter. Now hold your sight picture so the 12 oclock position of your dot is at the X or center of the circle.
When you sight in in this manner you have a better reference point to aim with. At close quarters you are going to put the dot right at center mass so you will hit center or upper chest from 5 yards on out. With a 2 min. dot you will cover 4 inches of your target at 200 yards. With a 12 oclock sight in your rounds will impact in the area covered by the dot. At 300 yards your 2 min dot will cover 6 inches. Your rounds will impact approx. 6 inches below the bottom (6 oclock) poistion on your dot. Sighting this way allows me to get much more accurate shot placement with a red dot sight out to 300 yards. YMMV. |
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~1 1/4" 10 shot group at 25 yards is the best that I have done with my Aimpoint Comp ML3. I'm not expert, so I was very impressed with the ML3.
Conditions/equipment.... Indoor range (semi-well lit) from the rest with bipod, bag under grip, and ass on bar stool 
aging eyes Federal XM193 Colt 6940 upper w/ A2 FH Geissele DMR with milspec trigger spring dot barely visible orange 25 yard silhouette target |
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The joy of dots is that they are round.
The joy of a lot of targets is that they too are round. Put the red round thing in the round target, and squeeze the trigger. There is absolutely no reason that you shouldn't be able to get tight groups doing this. Just make sure you select a target that is larger than your dot will be at the distance you are zeroing. I like to use a 6" shoot and see at 50 yards. Dot size is irrelevant. Consistency in your sight picture is. It helps to have the dot turned down too. Just bright enough that you can see it. If its blooming, you're doing it wrong. |
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Quoted:
The joy of dots is that they are round. The joy of a lot of targets is that they too are round. Put the red round thing in the round target, and squeeze the trigger. There is absolutely no reason that you shouldn't be able to get tight groups doing this. Just make sure you select a target that is larger than your dot will be at the distance you are zeroing. I like to use a 6" shoot and see at 50 yards. Dot size is irrelevant. Consistency in your sight picture is. It helps to have the dot turned down too. Just bright enough that you can see it. If its blooming, you're doing it wrong. +1 AMEN! I see shooters with tiny front sight posts because they think they will get tighter groups etc. but if you struggle to see the front sight everything else is moot. Some very good HP shooters shoot a typical GI width front sight post. |
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Power the optic down, index a particular point on the target, as mentioned not necessarily covering the bull with the dot and find a repeatable point of reference. There is no reason not to be able to shoot near the inherent accuracy of the rifle at 50 even 100 yards with a red dot. As distance increases with the lack of magnification this starts to make it difficult to hold as repeatable of an index for a point of aim with the dot.
Test firining a new custom build. EoTech 553 @ 50 yards. First target is slow fire but not a zeroing type of slow fire with a 10 shot approx 1" group with 1 called flier. Second target is a more rapid fire group at approx 2". Granted I am a fairly experienced shooter however learning a red dot or irons and applying good fundamentals can produce very good results. Firing a slow fire or zeroing 10 shot group within 2" at 100 yards is the norm out of a quality rifle with a red dot or irons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szqPwWeYCPU |
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With my Aimpoint M2 and XM193 I can achieve about 3/4 groups at 50 yards proned out resting on a backpack with no wind.
I am thinking your sight might not hold dope well and you may want to look at it and make sure its mounted on the rail properly with no wiggle. Depending on the mounting system. Buy cheap buy twice. |
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My Steyr AUG A3 and my FS2000 can get 10 shots into 1-1.5" with 4 MOA Aimpoint Micro's at 50 yards, the same 10 shots will be 3" at 100. These are not good triggers so an AR should do better.
I have found that if I shoot into a SQUARE with the round dot it gives me up down and left right references better than a circular target. At 50 I shoot into a 2" square at 100 about a 5" square. |
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Quoted:
So far, my best average to center group unmagnified is .575 MOA (200 Yards): http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=203007 Average to center is like a joke measurement... Shit everyone is a submoa shooter with average to center. That same .575ATC group was really ~2moa group...more than 3 times your ATC measurement, heck nearly 4 times. No need to try to make the original poster feel bad with trumped up numbers. |
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