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Posted: 2/27/2011 9:46:12 PM EDT
| I am going to purchase an Armalite AR-10 SuperSASS in the near future and I will need a scope for long range target shooting. I would prefer a variable power scope with as much magnification as I can get. From what I have seen, most optics manufacturers don't make anything over 32x. I have been looking at some cheap scopes made by Tasco, Barska, and NcStar that are all 10-40x50. I have also been looking at the Nikko Stirling with 10-50x60 and the Nightforce 12-42x56. I am sure everyone will say 'get the Nightforce', but it will be hard to come by another $1500 for a scope after spending close to $3k for the rifle. And I am well aware of the 3 cheaper scope companies reputations, so I guess what I really want to know is if the Nikko Stirling is any good? Or should I just get one of the cheaper ones for now, until I can get the Nightforce? |
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Any of the scopes you mentioned would be bad choices for long range shooting. The cheaper glass gets very dark at higher magnifications. They would be harder to aim with on even a sunny day than a much lower magnification optic with good clear glass. Mirage makes shooting difficult too, and the only way to minimize the effects is with magnification under 10x. Also none of them will have enough elevation adjustment to dial out to any distance. You will loose windage and elevation adjustment with higher magnification. 30mm tubes offer more travel, but with that much magnification it's still going to be limited.
I have a Millett TRS-1 on an AR now and it's getting replaced with something smaller. It's just more magnification than I need on a rifle that really only shoots well too 600-700 yards. After playing with it for a couple years I realized that it is better suited for a 1,000-1,200 rifle. It is waiting for me to buy a nice 308 to set it on. You would do best to look for a 12-20 top end max. Some affordable options Millett TRS-1 Konus M-30 (4.5-16 or 6.5-25) Falcon Menace Vortex Viper Edit- Wow, the Nightforce even only has 45" of adjustment! This is obviously designed for 100 yard paper punchers. |
| Cheap glass looks horrible (in addition to all the other problems with bottom-of-the-barrel optics) and cheap glass at high magnification looks even worse. Odds are you need a lot less magnification than you think and there are decent enough scopes out there than can be had for just a couple hundred dollars, some were listed in the first response. Don't waste your money on NCStar, Barska, or Tasco garbage. |
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Quoted:Edit- Wow, the Nightforce even only has 45" of adjustment! This is obviously designed for 100 yard paper punchers.
Not necessarily. If you only shoot to 100yds, 20MOA is plenty of adjustment and even that is overkill on a straight receiver with a striaght set of mounts and rings. That scope is meant for fixed distance shooting where the elevation is built into the mounts, the scope is zeroed and only minor corrections are needed for conditions after that. That scope would be entirely suitable for 1000 yd shooting with the understanding that it would be unusable for, say, 300 yds without different mounts. |
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Quoted:
Cheap glass looks horrible (in addition to all the other problems with bottom-of-the-barrel optics) and cheap glass at high magnification looks even worse. Odds are you need a lot less magnification than you think and there are decent enough scopes out there than can be had for just a couple hundred dollars, some were listed in the first response. Don't waste your money on NCStar, Barska, or Tasco garbage. I second that. My first "high power" scope (over a decade ago) was a 4-16X40mm BSA scope... It looks horrible above 6X. My cheap Bushnell shotgun scope (2-7) that I use for hunting looks WAY better, and to add insult to injury, the BSA cost more than the Bushnell! I've left that world, and now have an ACOG, and just ordered a Vortex Viper PST, after reading numerous reviews on this site, and others, which compared the glass of the PST to the glass of a Nightforce and said "its not quite as good as Nightforce glass, but its close".... Well, I'll take CLOSE for $1500 less. 
As far as magnification goes, what you need is CLEAR glass, and not high magnification. I can identify targets better with my Bushell 2-7 than I can with my BSA on 16x. And, you're adding this to a nice 308. IMHO I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice if you don't get a scope with clear glass, zero stops, and a ranging reticle, and learn how to use them. |
| I should mention that I am new to scopes and long range target shooting. So all of this information is very helpful, but at the same time obliterates everything I thought I knew about scopes. I only have 1 scope at the moment which is a cheap 3-9x42, which is what I am comparing other scopes to. I know the glass is not crystal clear, but it is clear enough that I can see the target at 100 yards. I have looked at alot of different scopes, high-end S&B to low-end Bushnell, and looking through them I cannot tell a big difference (not enough to justify spending thousands of dollars). A hunting friend of mine said that I probably won't be able to tell much of a difference by looking through them inside a store, the real difference is when you use outside in low-light conditions. Since I am only shooting during daylight, the quality of the glass shouldn't have too much effect on how well I shoot at 100 yards, but I guess it definitely will matter at 1000 yards. I am still puzzled about the magnification though. The scopes that I have been looking at (especially the Nightforce) say that they are for long-range target competition. The Nightforce even claims more wins in long-range competitions than any other scope with their Benchrest models. The higher magnification says approx. 2.5' FOV at 40X and larger. At 100 yards, the target would completely fill up my sight picture. I always figured that at longer range, you would need more magnification to see such a small target. I will be shooting by myself, so I guess I was also trying to eliminate the use of a spotting scope. I know this is not normally how it is done, but wouldn't it simplify things if I just used one scope to spot & shoot? I have looked throughout the archives about scopes, but couldn't find anything about what scopes are best for certain applications. Could you please educate me or point me towards some literature so that I can learn? |
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Optics for long range competition
scope mag how much or how little Now you may not want to follow everything this guy says, because he preaches buy once cry once. I agree with it, but at the same time one does not need the most expensive gear to do well. I have a Bushnell 4200 6-24 and have used it out to 1000 on a 8" target where it was more than enough. I have also used it for prarie dogs that are small and blend in, so while shots may only be 300 yds I like it up at 24x for target ID. I am a fan of lots of zoom, and 25 is IMHO the practical limit for field guns. If you are talking benchrest that is a different game, but you aren't going to use a semi auto for that. I can see bullet holes to about 200 yds tops with mine. I bought a cheap 50x spotting scope and I could not see the holes any farther because the clarity just was not there. You are paying more for than glass quality when you buy a 3k scope vs a $600 Bushnell, name, build quality, repeatability of adj, zero stop, top quality reticule, more erector travel ect. I understand not having the budget for a $1500+ scope after buying that rifle. Only you can decide what power range to get, but if you are serious about long range shooting everyone seems to be moving towards mil/mil scopes, with zero stops. The cheapest quality 6-24 options with those are the new bushnell 4200, and the viper PST. iirc midway had a sale on the bushnells, and the PSTs will cost around $900. If you don't have that kind of dough and just want to shoot get a bushnell fixed 10x 3200 for $150 and start shooting. Save some money and you will know what you want/need later. |
| Thanks for the link to that article. It was very informative. I am still hung up on the magnification though. The article mentions that 16X is plenty for a .308 to 1000 yards, but what is the sight picture going to look like? I don't have very good eyesight, so I would prefer that the target would be 50% or more of my sight picture. What percentage would a 2' diameter target look like at 1000 yards with 16X? What about 25X? |
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Eyesight is not an issue with scopes provided you have glasses. I am 20/300 near sighted, and can't read the big E on the chart without my glasses. Quality scopes will have a diopter adjustment that you can use for small eyesight corrections.
You will not get a scope that has that small of field of view nor do you want one. A 42x Nightforce has a 2.4 foot FOV at 100 yds which is tiny, at 1000 yds it would be 24 feet. You would need a target 12 feet wide to cover half the FOV, which at that point is big enough to shoot with iron sights. My Bushnell is 4.2' per 100 yds at 24x. That would be 42 feet at 1000 yds. At 6x it is 16.5' at 100 yds. Someplace in between is 16x, and I will let you do the math for % of scope covered. If you don't intend on shooting targets smaller than 2' a 16x would probably be fine, and would be better if you going to shoot movers or snap shooting at closer distances. 6x in brush hunting can get to be too much, but I like 24x for target ID so its a trade off I was willing to make. Shoot some 1" targets at 100 yds with the 3-9 that you have and see how you feel. That is close to a 10" target at 1000 yds except you won't have mirage or hazy/dusty air to look through. Personally I would skip the SASS and go for a cheaper model without the quad rail handgaurds and use that money to increase my scope budget. |
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Quoted:
Well, thanks to everyone for the information. I will restart my search. Sounds like I should stick with a 6-24X. Just curious though, what would you use these larger magnification scopes for, if not for long range? Mostly bench rest shooting at relatively short distances (100yds) using ultra precise bolt actions in a vise with pneumatic trigger pushers. Its not really very sporting, but then again the paper they kill doesn't care. Also, I feel I am doing well if I can shoot MOA, these guys get ticked if they screw up and shoot as bad as 1/4MOA. It's amazing to watch the bullets going one after another through one hole, but its more about equipment than skill, aside from slight wind calls and learning to perfectly dial in your handloads. |
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A lot are for short range bench rest, but others are used for long range bench rest. When you build a gun that will only be used at one range then FOV and other considerations are not as important.
Check out BR scopes they have some other good articles on there about BR. |
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How much can you spend on the optic? That'll help with the suggestions. I would'nt put cheap glass on a $3k rifle unless I was a masochist. If you are going to shoot that thing at LR, your going to need a scope that you can dial with, and those turrets need to track correctly. Depending on how small your targets are a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20X50 with the Rapid Z 1000 might work well, no need to dial. SWFA has them for about $1,100, and I saw one a week or so ago on snipershide used for $775.
As mentioned above, if your shooting on a warm day, the mirage at higher magnification is going to make the scope unusable no matter how good it is, so you need to be able to roll the magnification back. |
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