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if comparing a razor to a mk4 , there is no comparison. razor blows it away. a pst would be more in line with a mk4, and we wont know till a few months until they are released.

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First and foremost, unless you're looking specifically at the Razor HD 5-20x, you're referring to an Asian-manufactured scope. Who cares about the warranty? It's still an outsourced optic with American CS.

Secondly, the Leupold Mk4's are actively used by troops and have stood the test of time, both on the range and in combat. The Mk4 blows everything Vortex has away in quality, construction, AND customer service. I'll take a big-name company with proven customer service over a small operation that outsources their scopes any day. The only edge the Vortex has is with the 5-20x HD, but that's simply referring to the glass and adjustments... yet for $2,000, you had better offer those, so it's a moot point. If you intend on putting it through serious use, the Mk4 gains the advantage yet again. And if you are looking at spending $2000 on an optic, there are better choices, such as Nightforce.

The 1-4x HD looks promising, yet it has a MSRP of $1,599? The irony here is that Vortex optics have always sold at Vortex's "bargain" price and the price is rumored to be sub-$1000. To me, that's blatantly pricing it to get it in with the big-names by appearance only. Yet again, that's typical of Asian optics: price the MSRP at $3000 and sell them for $499. Same story, different day.

Stick with proven quality, like the Leupold.

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Go talk to Lowlight over on Sniper's Hide. He's in the industry and runs training with military all the time and through his actual first-hand experience he has a vastly different opinion of Leupold quality.

As far as Vortex customer service, they are widely recognized as having among the best customer service in the business.

Regarding the "Asian-manufactured" thing, you've got extremely high quality scopes like Nightforce coming out of Japan, so I wouldn't try to lump all "Asian-manufactured" scopes in together as low quality optics. The Vortex Razor HD is also made in Japan, and the word in the optics world is they're actually made by the exact same people who make the Nightforce scopes. Myself, I actually replaced a Nightforce NXS with a Razor HD and I am extremely pleased with my choice.

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No, you don't have Nightforce scopes "coming out of Japan," to quote you. You have components that are outsourced, which ALL manufacturers do, but the actual assembly is done in the US, as well as the Q.A. and maintenance/repairs.

The Vortex scopes are made ENTIRELY in Asia, not only in Japan, but in Korea and other counties as well.

The Razor HD 5-20x might be the one exception, as I clearly noted before you replied, hence your point being irrelevant. Good glass is good glass and the HD does have it, but that doesn't mean anything except that it has good, clear glass. You can put top-end glass into a Barska and it will look better than a S&B, but that doesn't mean it will function as one. Throw your Razor HD 10ft down onto concrete, or submerge it in 50ft of water for 2 hours, THEN tell me it's "better" than an NXS. Oh sure, you might get a free replacement, but who cares? I'll enjoy the fact that I can beat the heck out of my scope and take it into combat if required without needing a warranty (even though my Nightforce does carry a lifetime warranty).

I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it: if Vortex optics were so good, then why don't you see them used by military units (and why do they insist on knocking off Aimpoint)? And further, everyone tries to whore out how good Vortex is, yet the ONLY scope the can possibly use to try to prove their point is the HD 5-20x, the most expensive end-of-the-line scope they offer. And it's $2,000. You said it was better than your NXS? LOL. At that price, it BETTER be, as the top-tier NXS don't touch $2,000 unless you start adding FFP reticles.

Vortex optics can't hold a candle to Leupold, let alone Nightforce, except for their flagship Razor HD. And even then, it's a fragile benchrest scope compared to them. Their 1-4x looks promising, but Vortex holds a track record of offering budget scope solutions, so I'm extremely doubtful. Their initial tactical website (lol at the fact they actually have a "tactical" website) said "We'd list our clients, but they're classified." If that isn't a mall-ninja quote that signifies a lust for market share and a lack of quality, I don't know what is.

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First and foremost, unless you're looking specifically at the Razor HD 5-20x, you're referring to an Asian-manufactured scope. Who cares about the warranty? It's still an outsourced optic with American CS.

Secondly, the Leupold Mk4's are actively used by troops and have stood the test of time, both on the range and in combat. The Mk4 blows everything Vortex has away in quality, construction, AND customer service. I'll take a big-name company with proven customer service over a small operation that outsources their scopes any day. The only edge the Vortex has is with the 5-20x HD, but that's simply referring to the glass and adjustments... yet for $2,000, you had better offer those, so it's a moot point. If you intend on putting it through serious use, the Mk4 gains the advantage yet again. And if you are looking at spending $2000 on an optic, there are better choices, such as Nightforce.

The 1-4x HD looks promising, yet it has a MSRP of $1,599? The irony here is that Vortex optics have always sold at Vortex's "bargain" price and the price is rumored to be sub-$1000. To me, that's blatantly pricing it to get it in with the big-names by appearance only. Yet again, that's typical of Asian optics: price the MSRP at $3000 and sell them for $499. Same story, different day.

Stick with proven quality, like the Leupold.

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No, you don't have Nightforce scopes "coming out of Japan," to quote you. You have components that are outsourced, which ALL manufacturers do, but the actual assembly is done in the US, as well as the Q.A. and maintenance/repairs.

The Vortex scopes are made ENTIRELY in Asia, not only in Japan, but in Korea and other counties as well.

The Razor HD 5-20x might be the one exception, as I clearly noted before you replied, hence your point being irrelevant. Good glass is good glass and the HD does have it, but that doesn't mean anything except that it has good, clear glass. You can put top-end glass into a Barska and it will look better than a S&B, but that doesn't mean it will function as one. Throw your Razor HD 10ft down onto concrete, or submerge it in 50ft of water for 2 hours, THEN tell me it's "better" than an NXS. Oh sure, you might get a free replacement, but who cares? I'll enjoy the fact that I can beat the heck out of my scope and take it into combat if required without needing a warranty (even though my Nightforce does carry a lifetime warranty).

I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it: if Vortex optics were so good, then why don't you see them used by military units (and why do they insist on knocking off Aimpoint)? And further, everyone tries to whore out how good Vortex is, yet the ONLY scope the can possibly use to try to prove their point is the HD 5-20x, the most expensive end-of-the-line scope they offer. And it's $2,000. You said it was better than your NXS? LOL. At that price, it BETTER be, as the top-tier NXS don't touch $2,000 unless you start adding FFP reticles.

Vortex optics can't hold a candle to Leupold, let alone Nightforce, except for their flagship Razor HD. And even then, it's a fragile benchrest scope compared to them. Their 1-4x looks promising, but Vortex holds a track record of offering budget scope solutions, so I'm extremely doubtful. Their initial tactical website (lol at the fact they actually have a "tactical" website) said "We'd list our clients, but they're classified." If that isn't a mall-ninja quote that signifies a lust for market share and a lack of quality, I don't know what is.

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It's not even worth arguing with you. Take a look at NF's webpage. They prominently display "Made in USA" for the NXS F1 and the mini NXS line. Guess where the others are made.

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IMO Leupold is the worst buy out there. The only scope manufacture that I've had more warranty returns with that Leupold was USO, I had one MK4 6.5-20X50 that was sent to leupold 3 times within 4 months, came with a hugely canted reticle, went back to be repaired, came back and wouldn't zero or hold zero, came back and within 10 rounds broke again and wouldn't hold a zero. I've had plenty of other's with canted reticles, one's that wouldn't track, and various other failures. Then there's the sub par glass, a $400-500 bushnell elite 4200 has higher resolution and brighter glass than a MK4 does. Also hate to break it to you but MK4's are no longer american made scopes, notice how it isn't stamped on the box or scope anymore? And whereas NF outsources their part's from Japan, Leupold sources most of there's from china... no thanks. But the good news is when their scopes keep failing they have good customer service

As to MK4 blowing everything Vortex has out of the water... that's hardly the case. No MK4 even begin's to measure up to the Razor. The closest MK4 that compares to the Razor is the 6.5-20X50 ER/T, it's MIL/MIL like the Razor, but doesn't have as nice a reticle, doesn't have zero stop, doesn't have a fast focus occular, and doesn't have illumination all of which the razor has and is only $300 more, and the Razor has a 4X erector while the leupy only has a 3X. Those features plus the fact it's higher quality, has MUCH better glass and has BETTER customer service than the MK4 make's it not just a better scope, but a much better scope for your $$ too. I also like being able to hear and feel my clicks, every MK4 I had except for a 10X Ultra had mushy clicks that you couldn't hear. My Razor compares in quality to my NF F1, and S&B PMII 4-16X50 both of which cost more.  Vortex's new viper PST that is $500-900 will most likely be higher quality and has better features than anything the MK4 line offers aswell.

Vortex is a very proven company with EXCELLENT customer service that you most likely won't have to use which is the best of it all. Their Viper line that has been out for some time are some of the best scopes for the $$ out there. Right now there is a thread over on the hide were some guy crushed the tube of his Razor because of a defective ADM mount, the Vortex rep was responding to the thread, and ended up sending him a new scope AND a new mount. If you crushed a leupold tube mounting it regardless of whether it was a defective mount or the idiot mounting it, they would tell you to go pound sand.

The reason you see so many Leupold's in service is because of $$ and that's what they still have. More and more are branching out to higher quality optics like the S&B PMII 3-12X50 MTC on the M40A5's, and NF F1 on the XM3. I almost guarantee if you let some army sniper's or LEO's currently using MK4's try out a razor they would take it over any MK4 any day of the week.

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Good post... and I agree with you. The thing is, you're saying exactly what I'm saying: The Razor HD 5-20x (note i'm talking about the $2000+ optic) is a good scope, but it's not a combat scope. For $2,000, I'd rather spend my money on a tried and true combat scope such as S&B and Nightforce (and who else wouldn't?).

The other thing is that none of the other Vortex optics come close to the 5-20x HD, either in price or in quality, further proving the point. We can bash Leupold for selling lemons every now and then, but the fact remains that they still have decades of proven use. Vortex optics cuts too many corners and commits too many faux pas. They manufacture virtually all of their optics overseas for costs and then tout them as dependable. If I owned a company and truly wanted to give my customers dependable, solid quality, I'd oversee the construction in-house to ensure it was done right, not hire the cheapest Asians I could. They also blatantly copy Aimpoint in an attempt to steal the tacticool crowd - now that isn't really quality, is it?

Who cares if it has good glass or that it carries a lifetime warranty? I'm more concerned that it's truly waterproof (and not just water-resistant down to 5 feet).

I want to be sure that my mil-dot reticle is perfectly in-spec in the rare case I had to use it for actual ranging.

I want to know that the sealant and glues used in the scope are durable and won't fail under hard use.

I could keep listing point after point, but you get the idea. With this in mind, to me, the choice is clear. I'll go with the company that doesn't openly cut corners.

I'll also go with the company that doesn't need a "tactical" website to sell tactical gear.

It's not a combat optic? Why because it doesn't have any contracts?

You also seemed to read right over where I said that most of Leupold's component's are made in CHINA... the SHITHOLE of optics manufacturing, and even a lot of Leupold scopes are assembled there now aswell. How do you think they sell a Mark AR which is essentially the same thing as a Mark 2 minus windage turret for over $100 less?

I care that is has good glass, like everything else on my optics I want only the best. Good glass let's you resolve the image much better when shooting long range, and also eliminates fatigue on the eye for long periods of shooting. I also care that is carries a lifetime warranty but more importantly that I don't want to ever have to use that warranty, which is why I will NEVER own another Leupold product.

I do too, and I NEED my reticle to be PERFECTLY plumb, not +/- 3 degrees which is another reason I will NEVER own another Leupold product.

This and your comment about it being "truly waterproof" shows me what you know about optics. A scope failing due to ruptured seal and letting water in is very rare, most scopes fail due to the internals breaking and not holding zero or adjusting correctly. Good glass, audible tactile accurate adjustments, plumb reticles, and overall quality should be much higher concern than is it waterproof, most $50 tasco's are perfectly waterproof, hell with all the failures of leupold's I've had and seen happen not one has been it letting water in due to not being sealed correctly. Besides the fogging that would happen if the seals are jacked and the nitrogen purged out would be much more of a concern to me.

Me I'll take a QUALITY product that's both manufactured and assembled in a country with good parts and good QC from a company who isn't afraid to say where they're made.

Better sell off them Leupy's!!! www.leupold.com/tactical

It also seems that the very larger retailer SWFA has a seperate section for leupold "tactical" optics, meanwhile vortex's Razor and PST line are just under the regular old vortex section

You seem to really not have a clue about the company you are bashing or the one(s) your supporting. I think you should actually TRY a product and have some knowledge and experience with it before giving your opinion on it. It seems to me your pissed off at vortex because they made a red dot that is of similar design to the aimpoint and because they make a nicer scope with better features than your precious leupold's and NXS's.

Premiere Reticles didn't have a military contract until recently, yet their scopes met and exceeded military-grade in terms of durability and usability. It's not about if they have a military contract or not; it's about the durability being good enough to hold up under rigorous use and military specs can be used somewhat as a benchmark.

The Vortex scopes do not meet this benchmark. Simple examples? A simple look at the first S.P.A.R.C. review shows that the unit started flickering after riding a .50BMG. There was an entire batch of Strikefires with illumination issues that made it past Q.A. because... they weren't actually Q.C.'d and they simply sent them directly from receiving from "Asia" to the resellers. It's not WHERE they were manufactured - it's the lack of quality in production. Again, Nightforce uses outsourced parts, but they don't cut on quality. This is a far cry from assembling an entire optic overseas and then giving it a quick once-over and saying "it's good to go" (i.e. Vortex).

No, I didn't read right over it. It's simply that where a part comes from is irrelevant in and of itself. It's how it fits into the big picture. There is a MAJOR difference in getting subcomponents from China, Japan, etc. and putting them together in-house where you can oversee the final product and know it's quality inside and out, compared to simply having them manufactured overseas in their entirety. Even if both optic manufacturers (Vortex and Leupold) have issues, at least one has an extra step to potentially catch problems.

If you want only the best, then we'd be talking $5,000-$10,000+ optics, so your statement is subjectively irrelevant.

That aside, what does the Razor HD have besides good glass? Well, the website says this:

The all-new Razor HD 5-20x50mm riflescope was designed from the ground up to meet the demanding needs
of military and law enforcement precision shooters.Packed with more than a dozen unique performance and
optical features,the Razor HD delivers superior ranging and accuracy at extreme distances — and absolutely
reliable performance in the most demanding shooting conditions.

Hmmm... so it caters to the military and law-enforcement market? Interesting, since the military has specific shock and waterproof ratings. For example, Nightforce's scopes are waterproof rated at 66ft for two hours. I called Vortex Optics a week ago or so (after my friend and I had this very discussion) and asked about the Vortex HD and it's specific specifications. My first question was "How are they manufactured?" The Vortex person responded, "They're made in, uh, Japan." I asked him if they did an in-house QC check. He said "We look them over." I asked him to explain and he said they simply check them out externally. If they seem to function good, they ship them out.

I then asked about the waterproof and shock ratings. He said "Oh, you won't hurt it." I asked him to explain more, as other manufacturers provide specific ratings (such as Nightforce) and explained NF had a specific waterproof rating and I'd like to know theirs. There was a somewhat awkward silence and he said, "Well, I'm not sure, but you won't hurt it getting some water on it." The same went for the shock tests. He couldn't tell me what method they used for waterproofing it either.

For a $2000 "military-market" scope, that isn't reassuring whatsoever. Even Leupold has specific ratings on their scopes.

I wasn't referring to canted reticles, as canting is decently common, even with Trijicon Accupoints. If it wasn't, you wouldn't need reticle levelers (or even bubble-levels) - all you'd have to do is use a feeler-gauge between the turrets and mount. Even so, by your statement, you'd never buy a Trijicon, Meopta, OR a Vortex (lol). Yep, give me a few minutes to find the thread about the Vortex with a canted reticle. Great argument.

How can they possibly QC a scope they DIDN'T MAKE? It's not a hard concept to understand. They outsource all of their scopes, so they can't possibly do anything but look over the outside and say "yay" or "nay." That is not quality - that's haphazard.

I HAVE tried MANY products, Vortex included, and my opinion stands. I could care less who copies who - it's the image they try to put forth while doing so. Primary Arms makes clones of Aimpoint, yet I have no problem with them. Why? Because they're up-front and honest. Marshall has openly stated many times that, while his optics work, they shouldn't be used for anything strenuous and are, in the end, clones of a superior product. I respect that and support it fully. Now Vortex? They list their Aimpoint clones on a site that's caters to "classified clientele." Then again, we knew that.