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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:42:51 PM EDT
Seeming that there are so many choices now in Clones then perhaps what is really going on is a thing called market competition. When your the only game in town then it's easy to charge whatever you want but I say bring the clones, bring them all. Look how much a plastic LMT stock costs, when in reality it costs only about $20 to produce yet we fork it over. Look how much an Aimpoint costs, when in reality there isn't much to it considering. If something works and keeps the other producers on their toes to keep the prices reasonable then I am all for it. Course it's easy to knock a clone when you paid five times more for the real deal, it's a right I guess. Me, don't care, I imagine these clones will get better over time, soon we'll be asking ourselves why should we pay nearly a thousand dollars for a scope that has tritium inside when we could pay only a hundred or so for something that uses batteries and probably works just as well. Hell pocket the difference and buy two.

Kinda reminds me when I was a kid, everybody had to have the best, top name brand gym shoes, I couldn't afford them but then those others kids hated when I flew past them in my cheap $15 sneakers. One time when I was fifteen I went to a turkey shoot with a $125 Mossberg 20 gauge, I won the shoot, took the grand prize, against guys that had $1500 shotguns, they smirked at me when I went to the line, laughed under their breath, and then this damn kid took their cash prize with his cheap old Mossberg. So a little competition never hurt anyone, keeps the industry honest, and keeps the prices reasonable but more than anything enables us to keep our rights in more hands. Simply because the more voters who can afford our sport will only enable us to keep it longer.

Just my .02,

Creeper
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:35:39 AM EDT
Very well put . A+

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:46:01 AM EDT
+1

People don't try clones because they don't want to find out they spent $500 on a product that works the same as the $100 clone.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:29:44 AM EDT
So stealing of intellecture property that someone paid R&D and time to create is just part of the "revolution"?

I'm speaking of the clones that is purpetrated as an identicle copies of the original for apearances sakes.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:32:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:
So stealing of intellecture property that someone paid R&D and time to create is just part of the "revolution"?

I'm speaking of the clones that is purpetrated as an identicle copies of the original for apearances sakes.



Dunno if you realize this, ideas get stolen in the business world on an hourly basis, and that's not always in China.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:43:32 AM EDT
It would be one thing if they tried to improve a design, but when they try to make a cheap shit, good enough knock-off, NO THANKS.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:57:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 6:59:29 AM EDT by Stryfe]
Comparing a mossberg to another shotgun isn't the same as comparing a knockoff to the real deal.
Owning an expensive shotgun is an indication of wealth, not skill. You don't have to qualify to spend a lot of money.

I hated those 15 dollar shoes. Not out of envy, because I didn't even know what cool was, but because they didn't stop. Nothing like beating all of the other kids downcourt, and missing your mark sliding across the floor. I wasn't embarrassed to not have air jordans, I was embarrassed that my equipment failed.

I guess we learned different lessons.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:21:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 7:34:13 AM EDT by Onslaught]

Originally Posted By absit:

Originally Posted By Timanator:
So stealing of intellecture property that someone paid R&D and time to create is just part of the "revolution"?

I'm speaking of the clones that is purpetrated as an identicle copies of the original for apearances sakes.



Dunno if you realize this, cars get stolen in the real world on an hourly basis, and that's not always in China.



Does that help you realize the ignorance of your statement any better?

Some guys are just gear snobs, that's true, but you guys singing "Clones are great, they give us chocolate cake" are missing the point too.

When you start a thread that asks "what's the best ACOG clone?" and people call you a poser, how can you not understand that?

If your thread said "What's the best 4x optic for an AR15 that's under $200" then NOBODY could call you a poser because you wanted FUNCTION over FORM!

If you buy a $100 airsoft ACOG because you want a real ACOG but can't afford one, you're "pretending" you have an ACOG. Period, end of story. The product was designed from the ground up to look like an ACOG.

If you buy a tested and proven red-dot optic that fills a similar role as the Aimpoint you can't afford, you're doing the best you can with what you can afford. While some may still give you crap, and while it still may RESEMBLE an Aimpoint, it was not designed solely to LOOK like an Aimpoint, it was designed to fill the same role at a lower cost.

You do what you want... it's your money and your rifle. I've owned all sorts of cheap-a$$ optics trying to do "the same thing" as a higher quality optic. What I have learned through experience is, they seldom do.



Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:55:41 AM EDT
Creeper...


Clone wars...


Only in your head my friend... there is nothing to fight about. If you want to bolt toys to a real firearm, then knock yourself out.

Just don't try to pretend that you are doing otherwise or that the toys are just as good as the real thing.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:31:51 AM EDT
This just might be the dumbest thread in the history of ARFCOM.

A few of you guys agreeing with this BS might as well put up a 20' x 20' neon sign that reads:

"I Don't Know Shit"

It's perfectly obvious you don't have a damn clue what your talking about.


When is KevinB getting home so he can moderate this crap?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:06:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 9:07:52 AM EDT by Timanator]
Maybe I am not being clear enough. There are enough threads like this lately that I have chimed in on already.

The point is that "cloning" a good product is/might be good for competition as long as you guys dont lose the perspective of what these optics are for. This is a weapons forum, so the product should be rugged inside and have the same benefits/better than the original idea, but not cloned to look like the real deal on the outside only.

Because then, you will just have a useless piece of crap. Unless this wasnt intende to be used in the first place.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:31:43 AM EDT
Here and I thought this was going to be a Star Wars thread.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:46:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Onslaught:
Some guys are just gear snobs, that's true, but you guys singing "Clones are great, they give us chocolate cake" are missing the point too.

When you start a thread that asks "what's the best ACOG clone?" and people call you a poser, how can you not understand that?

If your thread said "What's the best 4x optic for an AR15 that's under $200" then NOBODY could call you a poser because you wanted FUNCTION over FORM!

If you buy a $100 airsoft ACOG because you want a real ACOG but can't afford one, you're "pretending" you have an ACOG. Period, end of story. The product was designed from the ground up to look like an ACOG.

If you buy a tested and proven red-dot optic that fills a similar role as the Aimpoint you can't afford, you're doing the best you can with what you can afford. While some may still give you crap, and while it still may RESEMBLE an Aimpoint, it was not designed solely to LOOK like an Aimpoint, it was designed to fill the same role at a lower cost.

You do what you want... it's your money and your rifle. I've owned all sorts of cheap-a$$ optics trying to do "the same thing" as a higher quality optic. What I have learned through experience is, they seldom do.






Onslaught, you deserve a golf clap for this post. It's one of the best I have ever read on the subject of “Clones” and airsoft optics threads on ARFCOM.

Damn outstanding post.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:53:53 AM EDT
Well of course we all knew the responses. My point is that many times equipment manufacturers have zero competition with their products, they charge high prices, and people pay them. However it is only taking the sport away from regular guys. Plenty I know would love to have an outfitted M4 but can't afford to do so with the exception of adding items that may not be some name brand. If the clones help keep prices in check but more so help people question weather or not paying the extra dollars for something that doesn't work all that much better then so be it. I think in time the clones will be on the same level as what is currently offered. I have friends that bought Blackhawk gear clones from South Korea, then used these "knockoffs" in combat over in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have read threads where guys have used cheap ACOG clones in combat and made comments that they worked just fine. The gear snobs of course will chime in, they have an elitists mentality, and believe anyone not outfitted with only the top of the line name brands wouldn't suffice. I only want to see these "knockoffs" keep the prices down on the real items, keep the game at a level for the masses. The more gun owners, the more voters, the more we get to keep our rights. Why do you think Class III is dying out? The prices, no one can afford them so they don't get much support by the average voter, and eventually only the richest of people can afford them. The 2nd Amendment is for the people as a system of checks and balances. Every able bodied man in this country is part of that system of checks and balances. The average man should be able to afford to be outfitted in small arms and equipment just the same. I am not an elitist, I own guns worth more than most on this board, but I wish that wasn't the case, I believe they should be affordable to everyone, the equipment the same.

Creeper
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:49:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:59:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:02:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Onslaught:

Originally Posted By absit:

Originally Posted By Timanator:
So stealing of intellecture property that someone paid R&D and time to create is just part of the "revolution"?

I'm speaking of the clones that is purpetrated as an identicle copies of the original for apearances sakes.



Dunno if you realize this, cars get stolen in the real world on an hourly basis, and that's not always in China.



Does that help you realize the ignorance of your statement any better?



While I appreciate a lot of what you said, especially because most people will always tell you to buy the most expensive piece of equipment you can find just because it's the "standard" gear and everything else must suck, I have to disagree with your cars analogy. When someone steals a car, the car is gone from the owner and that's all there is to it. When someone steals a business idea, it creates competition, the basis of capitolism.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:03:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:


NO clone ANYTHING matches up to the real deal currently. Maybe someone will come out with something in the future, but as of right not there is NO comparison.


C4




Not even the vaunted GrantPoint?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:05:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By absit:

When someone steals a business idea, it creates competition, the basis of capitolism.





BACK UP THE CART!


Capitalism thrives on risk & reward. In the case of stolen ideas, company A takes all the risk, while company B steals the idea and reaps the rewards.


That is NOT capitalism.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:17:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:20:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 12:21:51 PM EDT by JJREA]

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Just as an FYI, these cloning companies are NEVER going to make the real deal manufacturers change their prices. The clones will NEVER be able to offer the same things. For instance, the ACOG clones do not offer Tritiium and the Aimpoint clones do not come any where near the real Aimpoints battery life.

What WILL make Trijicon and Aimpoint change their prices is if someone comes along and beats them at their own game (not making a half ass clone).


C4



Whatever happened with that red dot photoman was testing?? I thought it faired fairly well. I'm kinda with these guys, if I don't "need" to spend $ 500 on a red dot, like it's for plinking and hunting, what is it going to hurt? I don't care if they do or do not look just like an aimpoint or Acog. And for a home self defense weapon, it's hard to justify when your shot would be pretty close anyways and the irons with a light would be just fine. At least in the home I live. And on top of that, you have to turn the dang things on!! But back to the clones, I never understand why people get there undies in a bundle about if it looks just like an aimpoint! Every 3 x 9 scope out there is almost identical, with some slight variances, they are ALL rip offs of some ONE persons design. Who was the first, I don't know, but somebody was. So leupold ripped off someone else but it's ok because time has forgiven. I'm not surprised companies are ripping off the aimpoint look. It's bound to happen. I for one hope there are red dot's that come out that come close to the quality of an aimpoint for a smaller price tag and I think some have already started to do it. That being said, I'd still like an aimpoint or eotech.

And va dinger, you know your stuff but you are kind of a gear snob. But that's OK, because I'm like a hayseed from Milwaukee. (Seems like Milwaukee is the butt of alot of jokes in movies and such). But you don't even offer any good advice, just slanderous talk, somethings up with that.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:21:59 PM EDT
The TacPoint did very well, dunno what ever happened to it.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:25:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:37:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 12:39:36 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
This just might be the dumbest thread in the history of ARFCOM.

A few of you guys agreeing with this BS might as well put up a 20' x 20' neon sign that reads:

"I Don't Know Shit"

It's perfectly obvious you don't have a damn clue what your talking about.


When is KevinB getting home so he can moderate this crap?




Yer right you don't know shit.
Go ahead and tell us all dinger about what a POS the clones are. Tell us about yer experiance with them and your T&E of them and what you found out about them go right ahead were waiting to hear it. Tell us about yer experiances with the Tacpoint or the Burris XTS(its a SPOT clone) or the T168.


Come man don't be shy.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:44:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 12:47:36 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

The SPOT scope is a good plinking optic and would put it on a fun gun (.22, 9mm, etc), but NEVER a duty weapon or HD weapon.


C4



I know where Grant is comming from on that and totaly agree with him on his reasoning. I have an aimpoint and a leupold on my two ARs because I do use them as personal defense/HD guns. They are proven optics.

However I strongly feel that the SPOT could very well handle duty use. Sure it could use a couple of small improvments but what couldn't. I really want to know what burris had done to it to suposedly beef it up.

I plan to run the SPOT in a carbine class or two and then after that I'm sending it to the sandbox so misterPX can use and abuse it when he has some down time.



if I don't "need" to spend $ 500 on a red dot, like it's for plinking and hunting, what is it going to hurt? I don't care if they do or do not look just like an aimpoint or Acog.

That right there is pretty much the key.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:45:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:47:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:47:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:51:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 12:56:11 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
There's more to an optic than appearances, thinking that a $ 20 chinese scope is the same as an aimpoint is like thinking that those lameo kit cars from Miami Vice are as fast and good handling as the real thing. But hey if you feel better driving a Fiero with 911 sheet metal on it, vroom vroom!



No one is saying they are the same thing, they are not. I think of anyone posting in the thread Grant and I know that better then anyone. I've personaly beat the shit out of a tacpoint to test it. It's not in the same ballparek as an aimpoint, no if ands or buts about it. However for a range gun it will do everything the shooter needs it to do that an aimpoint will do and do it for less.

For some people thats all they need or want is the look and a similar function without having to break their bank.

Hell when I got the tacpoint half the reason for the test and getting it was to see how I would like a dot sight without having to shell out the cash for an aimpoint. In the end I got an Aimpoint because liked the system. And the only reason I got the Aimpoint was because Ziti found on hell of a deal on some, had he not I'd still be waiting to get my EoTech.

And again on the T-168 it's not an ACOG never could be, but suprisingly the two i've gotten to paly around with were clear with a little distortion on the edges, but again for a range/ lightuse/ none serious use gun, it's a fine optic. I wouldn't put it on a fighting gun, but hell at least one ARFcomer used one in Iraq and it held up fine for what he was using it for. Does that mean I'd trust one with my life no. Does it mean it's equal to the ACOG hell no But it does show that they can take some amount of harder use then just range use.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:57:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

The SPOT scope is a good plinking optic and would put it on a fun gun (.22, 9mm, etc), but NEVER a duty weapon or HD weapon.


C4



I know where Grant is comming from on that and totaly agree with hiom on his reasoning.

However I strongly feel that the SPOT could very well handle duty use. Sure it could use a couple of small improvments but what couldn't. I really want to know what burris had done to it to suposedly beef it up.

I plan to run the SPOT in a carbine class or two and then after that I'm sending it to the sandbox so misterPX can use and abuse it when he has some down time.

Now even saying all that, I still have an aimpoint and a leupold on my two ARs because I do use them as persona defense/HD guns. They are proven optics.



After seeing the abuse the SPOT withstood, I have no doubt that it would hold up for duty use. My problem with it for duty/HD use is the battery life. I require my SHTF optics for have a minimum of one-thousand hours of run time.


C4




And battery life was one of those small improvments I think it needs. for the Aquabumpers ya know.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 1:14:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 1:36:03 PM EDT
I'm glad I found this thread and can submerse myself back into the realm of knowledgeable people like Grant and Aimless as well as fight4yourrights, Onslaught and NYPatriot.

I've been the high-post-count-ASSHOLE in several other threads over the last week or so regarding clones. The aforementioned ACOG clone thread was a real bitch to come out of sounding halfway intelligent. It was full of assholes saying "just becuase you have 3000+ posts, you think you know it all." dumbfucks I tell ya. I act like a knowitall all of the time and it's not because of my post count

When I know something I say it and don't just shut up.

Onslaught summed it up perfectly when he said


When you start a thread that asks "what's the best ACOG clone?" and people call you a poser, how can you not understand that?

If your thread said "What's the best 4x optic for an AR15 that's under $200" then NOBODY could call you a poser because you wanted FUNCTION over FORM!



That's the exact problem- these guys want an ACOG clone and not a cheaper low powerd optic. They are a kid in a candy store. They know they want SOMETHING and when they spot the knockoff, THAT'S what they HAVE to have and there's no stopping them! They'll defend it to their death!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 2:26:19 PM EDT
Sometimes when someone says ACOG clone or AIMPOINT clone they really want an optic that does the same thing for less. ACOG clone is just faster than 4x scope for under $200 with short eye relief.

Out of curiousity though, what is the best 3x or 4x scope for under $200 with a short eye relief? Preferring an illuminated but NOT battery powered reticle (not required).
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:23:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:



Capitalism thrives on risk & reward. In the case of stolen ideas, company A takes all the risk, while company B steals the idea and reaps the rewards.


That is NOT capitalism.



You are right. Its Politics.



(Sry, couldn't resist. . . )
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:25:53 PM EDT
Iono, Starbucks stole their formula from "Peet's Coffee", Peet's Coffee then made it better and does decent business, but nowhere near as much as the thieving Starbucks. Go bitch at them!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:46:21 PM EDT
Hell with the semantics, I boil it down to theft. I went without an quality optic for a long time untill I could afford one. But then I respect a business' intellectual property enough not to support copyright violations. Maybe you don't want to wait, great, buy an alternative company more inline with your budget, or use irons. But to get an exact copy of a Comp M2 or Trijicon is outright receiving stolen property, not smart shopping. And frankly, I don't know why every single poster here that asks for a knockoff is not banned instantly. IMHO YMMV

Trijicon alone is protected by patents;

U.S. Patent 4,806,007
Canadian Patent 1,305,341
France EP 0315379
Great Britain EP 0315379
Japan 2632976
S. Africa 88/8185
Switzerland EP 0315379 +NO
Austria EP 0315379
Australia 605 076

Aimpoint AB is too, but they got too damny many patents to look through at the .gov site....
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:04:18 PM EDT
that brings up a good point.

Do we want AR15.com to be a source of knowledge for people who want to buy knockoffs? Do we want everyone who wants a stolen idea to come HERE to pursue their dream of owning junk that's been stolen and reproduced without permission?

I don't think we want that reputation.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:21:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
I'm glad I found this thread and can submerse myself back into the realm of knowledgeable people like Grant and Aimless as well as fight4yourrights, Onslaught and NYPatriot.

I've been the high-post-count-ASSHOLE in several other threads over the last week or so regarding clones. The aforementioned ACOG clone thread was a real bitch to come out of sounding halfway intelligent. It was full of assholes saying "just becuase you have 3000+ posts, you think you know it all." dumbfucks I tell ya. I act like a knowitall all of the time and it's not because of my post count

When I know something I say it and don't just shut up.

Onslaught summed it up perfectly when he said


When you start a thread that asks "what's the best ACOG clone?" and people call you a poser, how can you not understand that?

If your thread said "What's the best 4x optic for an AR15 that's under $200" then NOBODY could call you a poser because you wanted FUNCTION over FORM!



That's the exact problem- these guys want an ACOG clone and not a cheaper low powerd optic. They are a kid in a candy store. They know they want SOMETHING and when they spot the knockoff, THAT'S what they HAVE to have and there's no stopping them! They'll defend it to their death!



I think this is semantics. You guys have still failed to address the fact that all frigging sporting / variable type scopes all look the same. So when I bought a leupy 2 x 7 for $ 179 was I being a poser instead of buying a TS30-A2, MR/T or something like that? I bought it to shoot like a "sniper". Long distance, accurately. Does that make me a poser? Just because I don't feel like I need the extra bells and whistles, although they are nice. But when looking around at the red dots the BSA would be the last one I choose because that thing just looks ungainly. The aimpoint has a good look and it's probably going to be copied. It's compact and it doesn't look like a big doughnut on top or your rifle. I suppose if the thing was touted as the most rugged, reliable, kick butt red dot we'd all overlook the looks of it (kind of like the Elcan ). And really the main thing is how it works, but if you're telling me none of you care about aesthetics, I'd say some of you are lying. Not all, but some.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:57:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 6:58:15 PM EDT by Dace]

Originally Posted By Creeper:
My point is that many times equipment manufacturers have zero competition with their products, they charge high prices, and people pay them.



You have a bad point then.

Those top name brand shoes did have competition, that top name brand shotgun did have competition. It was your $15 shoes and $150 shotgun.

Yes people are willing to still pay for those super expensive Nikes and super expensive shotgun. Why? Because people are willing to pay for quality thats associated with a certain name.

If I want a pair of shoes for walking around in and looking good sure I could go to payless shoe source and pay$50 for cheap leather chinese made shoes.

But if I want a pair of handmade shoes that I know will last me a life time with proper care and some re-soleing I go down to my guy Valentino downtown who makes them by hand. Yes they cost about 4 times what I would pay at payless. But the quality, the workmanship, the knowledge that I have the best damn dress shoes out there is worth it to me. No one else can see the difference, but I dont care, I can.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:07:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By JosephR:
I'm glad I found this thread and can submerse myself back into the realm of knowledgeable people like Grant and Aimless as well as fight4yourrights, Onslaught and NYPatriot.

I've been the high-post-count-ASSHOLE in several other threads over the last week or so regarding clones. The aforementioned ACOG clone thread was a real bitch to come out of sounding halfway intelligent. It was full of assholes saying "just becuase you have 3000+ posts, you think you know it all." dumbfucks I tell ya. I act like a knowitall all of the time and it's not because of my post count

When I know something I say it and don't just shut up.

Onslaught summed it up perfectly when he said


When you start a thread that asks "what's the best ACOG clone?" and people call you a poser, how can you not understand that?

If your thread said "What's the best 4x optic for an AR15 that's under $200" then NOBODY could call you a poser because you wanted FUNCTION over FORM!



That's the exact problem- these guys want an ACOG clone and not a cheaper low powerd optic. They are a kid in a candy store. They know they want SOMETHING and when they spot the knockoff, THAT'S what they HAVE to have and there's no stopping them! They'll defend it to their death!



I think this is semantics. You guys have still failed to address the fact that all frigging sporting / variable type scopes all look the same. So when I bought a leupy 2 x 7 for $ 179 was I being a poser instead of buying a TS30-A2, MR/T or something like that? I bought it to shoot like a "sniper". Long distance, accurately. Does that make me a poser? Just because I don't feel like I need the extra bells and whistles, although they are nice. But when looking around at the red dots the BSA would be the last one I choose because that thing just looks ungainly. The aimpoint has a good look and it's probably going to be copied. It's compact and it doesn't look like a big doughnut on top or your rifle. I suppose if the thing was touted as the most rugged, reliable, kick butt red dot we'd all overlook the looks of it (kind of like the Elcan ). And really the main thing is how it works, but if you're telling me none of you care about aesthetics, I'd say some of you are lying. Not all, but some.



The problem is most standard scopes look a lot alike. When you go for a 4x scope (or even non-magnified) one just because it looks like an ACOG you are definitely going for looks.

I've owned an Eotech 551, an ACOG TA01 and now have an Aimpoint CompM. I also have a knockoff aimpoint from that canadian in the EE who now sells ACOG clones.

I bought the Eotech and then sold it when I had a great deal on the ACOG come along.

I sold the ACOG because I didn't really need a fixed 4x scope and needed the money elsewhere.

I bought the Aimpoint Clone as something to play with (yes, as in a toy.)

I got a great deal on my CompM and the clone toy now sits on my bosses kid's airsoft gun where it belongs.

The Aimpoint is a simple red dot scope and looks the way it does because of it's simplicity. Sure, it's a good starting point for someone like Burris when they want to create their own WITHOUT infringing on anyone else's patents.

The ACOG is not a simple little optic and looks the way it does for various reasons. To make a simple copy to create a 4x scope and have it look EXACTLY like an ACOG is simply stealing.

You'd be pissed if you found a great deal on a vette at a used car lot and it looked and sounded great but when you took it out on the highway and found out it only could go 55 because it's just made to look like one and is built on a piece of shit japanese 4 cyl. you'd be pretty pissed off.

These clones need to stay the fuck home!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 8:09:36 PM EDT by captrichardson]
First,
If it is the general consensus of ARFCOM, be it the majority of members, or the personnel who administer the site, that the topic of “Clones” should not be discussed here, then by all means state that, and the discussions should cease and desist immediately.

Given that “Clone Topics” have been going on here for months without being deleted, and there appear to be as many members posting that are “Pro-Clone”, as are “Anti-Clone”, then I took it the discussions were fair game.

I would also take it that since companies like Airsoft Atlanta are spending their money to advertise here, along with companies like Trijicon, that not every item up for discussion here had to be the most popular or highest priced thing going.

I have also taken it that Forums were a place for discussion or debate to take place, and as such not every post in a topic is going to be agreed on by everyone involved. Of course discussion / debate can be a very productive thing, or a very unproductive thing, it all depends on how things go. As a general rule things like name calling and baseless statements tend to push the value down hill, something that seems to be pretty prevalent in these topics.


Second,
There are members here who have my utmost respect, and 99% of the time I will take anything that they have to say as gospel. I respect these individuals not because of post counts, but because you can see based on their contributions here that they know their stuff, and because their contributions add value to the topics.

Grant is a prime example of one of these people. For example if you look at the review that he did on the Low Power Scopes,

1-4 Variable Power Scope Review

that clearly shows that he knows what he is talking about because he has experienced it first hand and/or he has done extensive research on the topic. This is also a classic example of a contribution to a topic that adds value.

Of course there are also members here who have none of my respect, because the value they add is pretty nonexistent. These members are usually pretty easy to spot because they are ones using 4 letter words, calling people names, slinging out baseless comments, and doing a lot of other stuff that is nonproductive.

Having said that,
Grant which of the “Clones” do you have first hand experience with? I am asking because if you have something to say, I am sure it has to be factual and it has to have value. I am also asking because there a lot of Clones out there, and I am curious which ones your comments are based on. I am also asking because I have some very solid evidence, both first hand and from other sources, that says that some of the Clones are satisfactory for use on real firearms, and will perform about 90%-99% as effectively as the originals. I am willing to bet that I am correct on the effective items, and you are correct on the ineffective items, because we are each probably talking about different items.


On the “Right” or “Wrong” issue,
As far as this being a legal / moral / ethical issue, yes some of these Clones would be guilty of Patent Rights Violations. If you have a problem with that, don’t buy them!

Of course if you also think that the Chinese are the only ones who are guilty of Patent Right Violations, then think again. The 3 years that I worked in the “Industry”, I saw more US Companies stabbing each other in the back and practicing Rip Off & Duplicate than I could count. Of course they are not as blatant or in your face about it because if they were they would be in Court. 2 wrongs don’t make a right, but if you think the Chinese are the only ones violating patents, then you only have about half of the picture.

I don’t advocate law breaking or immoral behavior, but I also don’t tell people how to live their lives. I would take it everyone here is an adult, as such they can make their own decisions, and they can live with the consequences. I would guess if members here were looking for legal / moral / ethical advice, then they would state that. I am also willing to bet that if that is what they are looking for, then they would go elsewhere to talk to a Lawyer, Priest, or Their Mother for a recommendation on what is “right” or “wrong”. I would probably guess they are posting here because they are trying to learn about a particular product.

I did not get involved in the “Clone Wars” because I am promoting “Clones”. I got into the “Wars” because someone had asked about the quality of a product, and instead of getting answers, they got called names and they got feed a bunch worthless info. As such I tried to help them out, not because I think they need to buy a “Clone”, but because I think they need to make an informed decision about whatever product they buy. If you notice I have not only provided info on the Clones, but I have also tried to get info brought out about all of the options that are available.

I am here so that I can learn, and so that I can in turn make informed decisions, and as such if I think that I can help someone else, I will speak up. If people will help me, then I will try to help others, because what goes around, comes around.

Finally,
IMHO this is not an absolute issue, as many people would to try and make it. Not every Clone is made to the same spec or to the same level of quality, and as such they are not all going to fit neatly into one category. Multiple members here have reported using Clone Optics and the Clones have zeroed, held zero, withstood abuse, and overall functioned in an acceptable manner. Other members have reported the exact opposite with nothing but problems and failures. Pretty much says to me, not all Clones are created equal. Of course some people here seem to conveniently ignore all of the posts that report satisfactory performance, and just point to the failures and conveniently apply it to every Clone made.

Well unless the moderators shut the Clone discussions down, then IMHO this is only the beginning. I am printing off these topics so that I can go back to them in 2-3 years and have a good laugh with my friends! I guess as they say time will tell.

Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”


Almost forgot,
Why would someone start the topic, What is the best ACOG Clone?
Because as far as they know, the ACOG is the best thing going, but they can not afford the $700-$1000 price tag so they are looking for a Clone which should be close in performance but more economical.

Why are they not asking, Which 4x Optic is the best?
Because they are not aware that there are other 4x Optics out there that might be comparable to an ACOG, and are also economical. Remember, not everyone who owns an AR is as up on Optics as everyone else is here at ARFCOM. As such they are only aware of whatever is getting the most exposure.

Why would they settle for an ACOG Clone?
Because they are a “Range Warrior”, not a “Real World Warrior”. Which means they don’t need Tritium or Fiber Optics, don’t need a 1000 hour battery life, and don’t need something that can survive an airborne insertion.

Of course they could also just be dead set on the Poser Factor!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:53:52 PM EDT
aw Christ...

What "Industry" are you in?

None of can say anything about guilty or not guilty with regards to patent infringements and neither can the Clone Companies. Do you know why? Because they don't even look at the patents to know whether they are doing right or wrong.

Airsoft Atlanta does NOT sell an ACOG clone (except for the somewhat similar T168) and the Aimpoint Clones are all labeled as "AP-type." I would guess they are allowed to pay for advertising here because they don't push blatant copies.

We don't really need to hear from you anymore on this issue. You have a TERRIBLY high amount of information on all of the different ACOG Clone manufacturers so keep it to yourself. Spread the word in forums and on sites that don't mind teaching people of illegal knockoff garbage.

Even though everyone here would like to get the most for their money, I'm sure we can all agree that we don't need to get into the gray are of promoting clones and knockoffs.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:13:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 9:23:21 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
Given that “Clone Topics” have been going on here for months without being deleted



I think that has more to do with this forums lack of active moderators. When was the last time you noticed JohnM or SWFA play an active part in this forum? I'm not saying they are not great guys, I just don't see them moderating. These threads are suppose to go to the "Wargaming Forum". I know thats were KevinB placed them when he was a mod. Lumpy did the same thing.

Now we end up with a front page full of airsoft and "Clone Wars" threads.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:18:48 PM EDT
Don't tell him that there's a chance they'll be moved. He'll call that censorship and complain that he can't find a decent place to talk about the "ACOGs" that Wal-Mart should be selling... Clones with bloody little chinese kid fingerprints on them. I'm not british, I'm referring to abused children and slave labor.

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:20:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
Don't tell him that there's a chance they'll be moved. He'll call that censorship and complain that he can't find a decent place to talk about the "ACOGs" that Wal-Mart should be selling...



Who would care?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:21:16 PM EDT
I'd like him to shutup is all.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:49:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 9:57:21 PM EDT by Hk_Kommando]
98% of the shooters here (assuming they actually SHOOT thier guns, of course) fire at paper targets, or beer cans or squirrels......


Why, why, WHY make such a big issue about the clone optics?

Have ANY of you have EVER bought knockoff sunglasses, cheap watches, etc? Those are clones, too.

Paper targets, guys. Red Dawn is never gonna happen. No Zombies, either. PAPER people are all you're gonna kill.

*I'd NEVER use a clone when my life (or others) depended on it, period. Real life demands REAL gear.*

But for squirrel hunting, I think I could lower my standards a bit as long as it is of a relative quality, and it works.

I don't think the squirrel will care.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:02:15 PM EDT
I buy a lot of cheap stuff. My sunglasses are all cheap. My Fossil watch isn't exactly expensive. But, you won't find an exact replica of one that's 10x the cost. You sure as hell can't tell me I chose the less expensive one because it looked exactly like a more expensive one, that's for damn sure.

I bought my watch and my sunglasses when I needed them. I like my watch because it's silver and my sunglasses because they are black. I bought them becuase they were in my price range. I did NOT however decide I needed a watch that looked a certain way, look at the most expensive, decide on a style and then hunt down a cheap version that looked identical.

I know my price range and shop within it.

Do you clone guys also wear fake rolexes? I bet you do...

I bet you might also be the type to wear thick steel chains plated in 10k gold with huge pendants made of pot metal with a thin coating of 10k gold. Just because it looks like a million bucks doesn't mean it is and remember-

YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD!!!!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:05:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hk_Kommando:
98% of the shooters here (assuming they actually SHOOT thier guns, of course) fire at paper targets, or beer cans or squirrels......


Why, why, WHY make such a big issue about the clone optics?

Have ANY of you have EVER bought knockoff sunglasses, cheap watches, etc? Those are clones, too.

Paper targets, guys. Red Dawn is never gonna happen. No Zombies, either. PAPER people are all you're gonna kill.

*I'd NEVER use a clone when my life (or others) depended on it, period. Real life demands REAL gear.*

But for squirrel hunting, I think I could lower my standards a bit as long as it is of a relative quality, and it works.

I don't think the squirrel will care.



Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:10:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 10:15:59 PM EDT by Hk_Kommando]
You guys need to quit taking this so serious.

Those who know carry what they need, period.

If others want to get cheap stuff to bolt on thier rifle, warn the squirrels. You, however ,have nothing to worry about.


Stop letting it bother you.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:27:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By photoman:


No one is saying they are the same thing,



The guy who started this thread is saying just that. Thats not how it read to me, it came off to me as I you don't need to have that $$$$ optic for the type of shooting you do whats wrong with getting a clone

I don't have any problem with people buying cheap scopes to play with, hell I put a BSA red dot on a friend's AR last week, that's what he wanted and I'm not his mother, though I am trying to talk him into one of those korean red dots at least.

What I think is a BAD THING is the crappo scopes that look like a real scope, because there are plenty of yahoos that think they are equivalent in quality.

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