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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 8:15:58 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:23:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:33:09 PM EDT
who sells the talon and what is the price?
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:33:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2005 5:37:36 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:36:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:38:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:40:40 PM EDT
Taggage
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:49:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2005 5:51:15 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:53:11 PM EDT
price on the talon?
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:55:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 5:57:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 6:04:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 6:22:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 6:55:16 PM EDT
Nice review! Soon very soon...
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 7:07:57 PM EDT
I personally think the new elcan is gonna master this class and obliviate all teh 1-4's and the aimpoint 1/3 in one fell swoop. Damned external adjustments or not, just my opinion. that thing looks wicked.
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 7:19:59 PM EDT
Hey Grant how tough is the SN 4??
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 8:34:20 PM EDT
Grant - have you tried the IOR 1.1-4x with the CQB reticle yet? If so, how does it stack up against the others? I liked the Talon until I saw the EXTREMELY busy reticle, so now I am leaning towards the IOR CQT but no one seems to have a decent review of it yet. If the IOR doesn't stack up then I am going for the Accupoint.


Link Posted: 10/22/2005 8:55:23 PM EDT
I considered this same concept and ultimately went with the Leupold European-30mm, 1.25-4x20mm on a LaRue SPR mount. I am just starting to play with it, but the ability to quickly adjust power is great and the brightness is exceptional.
Link Posted: 10/22/2005 10:05:35 PM EDT
The only problem with the 1-4X idea is that on 1X, the scopes are still not parallax free.

Eo-techs and aimpoints are, which is a major advantage.

No variable power scope on 1X will ever be as good as an aimpoint or eotech in rapid acq/close combat.

That being said, the short dot looks nice (but dont sell your aimpoint after you get one)

The more optics you have, the better.
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 2:54:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
The only problem with the 1-4X idea is that on 1X, the scopes are still not parallax free.

Eo-techs and aimpoints are, which is a major advantage.

No variable power scope on 1X will ever be as good as an aimpoint or eotech in rapid acq/close combat.

That being said, the short dot looks nice (but dont sell your aimpoint after you get one)

The more optics you have, the better.



+1,000,000 'cept that's not what I hear with USOptics. Am I wrong?
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 3:46:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I agree with you. At Pat's class I spent most of the time on 1X (moving and shooting or anything under 15yds). When we dropped back to 25yds and further I would change the power. I found being able to adjust to the situation I was in VERY nice.

C4



You mention "moving and shooting", and changing magnification powers.......

how easy is this, and is there a "lapse-in-awareness-while fiddling-with-my-optics" to overcome, or does it become second nature once you get used to the controls?


Great comparative review... thanks for sharing
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 4:21:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2005 5:00:46 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I agree with you. At Pat's class I spent most of the time on 1X (moving and shooting or anything under 15yds). When we dropped back to 25yds and further I would change the power. I found being able to adjust to the situation I was in VERY nice.

C4



You mention "moving and shooting", and changing magnification powers.......

how easy is this, and is there a "lapse-in-awareness-while fiddling-with-my-optics" to overcome, or does it become second nature once you get used to the controls?


Great comparative review... thanks for sharing



I run a leupold VX II 1-4x20. I have for a couple years now. As far as a "lapse-in-awareness-while fiddling-with-my-optics", no there really isn't one once you get used to the optics controls as far a the magnification adjustment. My biggest thing when I started using it was remembering what direction was to turn it to increase and decrease the magnification. You have to work with it in order for it to become second nature just like anything else, but once it does there are not issus.

Link Posted: 10/23/2005 4:27:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
The only problem with the 1-4X idea is that on 1X, the scopes are still not parallax free.

Eo-techs and aimpoints are, which is a major advantage.

No variable power scope on 1X will ever be as good as an aimpoint or eotech in rapid acq/close combat.

That being said, the short dot looks nice (but dont sell your aimpoint after you get one)

The more optics you have, the better.



Ever use one in a CQB/class setting? Just wondering what experiance leads you to say that.

I run a optic that when set at 1x is actually 1.5x and it is perfectly fine at ranges from PB to as far out as I can accuretly shoot the gun. Yer comparing apples to oranges here. Dot sights, agains sights with traditional reticals that are either glass etched/phot engraved/ wire. So even if they were "paralax free" yer still not going to have yer aiming point "move" like on a dot sight because the retical is not projected like the dot sights. I'm still faster with my 1-4 then I am with a red dot, simply because I have more time on the 1-4 system then I do with a red dot system.
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 4:51:34 AM EDT
Illumination knob missing on your SN4? Or am I missing something?
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:27:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:29:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:30:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:31:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:37:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:40:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 5:46:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 6:37:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2005 6:38:21 AM EDT by eklikwhoa]
tagged



the s&b looks nice! the glass looks great, wish i had one.

price for s&b with larue mount? just in case i have some extra money lying around



Link Posted: 10/23/2005 11:15:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 2:35:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2005 2:39:01 PM EDT by Vapor-Trail]

Ever use one in a CQB/class setting? Just wondering what experiance leads you to say that.

I run a optic that when set at 1x is actually 1.5x and it is perfectly fine at ranges from PB to as far out as I can accuretly shoot the gun. Yer comparing apples to oranges here. Dot sights, agains sights with traditional reticals that are either glass etched/phot engraved/ wire. So even if they were "paralax free" yer still not going to have yer aiming point "move" like on a dot sight because the retical is not projected like the dot sights. I'm still faster with my 1-4 then I am with a red dot, simply because I have more time on the 1-4 system then I do with a red dot system.




The comparison is a fair one.

I have taken both military and outsourced shooting classes. Overall I feel that the private schools are more progressive and up to date however:

As far as comparing "apples to oranges" or "red dots to variables on 1X" I must say this:

With a red dot, the location of your eyeball reletive to the optic is not critical (unless you completely lose the dot).

With a variable on 1x, the location of your eye is absolutely critical (you eye must maintain the same
distance and alignment from the optic)

Now try to do either under stress, where even the most simple tasks can become completely impossible.

You will find the red dot much simpler and more forgiving to alignment errors.

Thats why a varible on 1X may work well for close combat, but will never surpass the red dot.

Without making broad accusations (meaning not everyone), I have observed that some might see the 1-4X as some kind of "super optic" that can perform all tasks.

That is why I say (to some) dont throw away your red dots just yet.

There is no "do all optic".

Just like there is no "do all caliber" or "super rifle".

Sometimes, I too am guilty of this kind of thinking. But then remember that the pursuit of such items is foolish.

With all that being said, I feel that the 1-4X will make a great addition to an optical inventory, that will, along with other optics afford you a greater lattitude of options.

regards

Calvin





Link Posted: 10/23/2005 6:09:40 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 6:54:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 7:28:04 PM EDT


Good thread. Thanks Grant.



Link Posted: 10/23/2005 8:54:18 PM EDT
just for the heck of it is there a reason that the leupy 1.5X5 was left out.....I would have loved to see how it ranked..........?
Link Posted: 10/23/2005 9:54:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By beware1gun:
just for the heck of it is there a reason that the leupy 1.5X5 was left out.....I would have loved to see how it ranked..........?



+1

Is the Leupold a POS or not?
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 2:39:12 AM EDT

just for the heck of it is there a reason that the leupy 1.5X5 was left out.....I would have loved to see how it ranked..........?


Plus NF NXS as well.
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 3:34:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 3:35:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 4:53:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:

Ever use one in a CQB/class setting? Just wondering what experiance leads you to say that.

I run a optic that when set at 1x is actually 1.5x and it is perfectly fine at ranges from PB to as far out as I can accuretly shoot the gun. Yer comparing apples to oranges here. Dot sights, agains sights with traditional reticals that are either glass etched/phot engraved/ wire. So even if they were "paralax free" yer still not going to have yer aiming point "move" like on a dot sight because the retical is not projected like the dot sights. I'm still faster with my 1-4 then I am with a red dot, simply because I have more time on the 1-4 system then I do with a red dot system.




The comparison is a fair one.

I have taken both military and outsourced shooting classes. Overall I feel that the private schools are more progressive and up to date however:

As far as comparing "apples to oranges" or "red dots to variables on 1X" I must say this:

With a red dot, the location of your eyeball reletive to the optic is not critical (unless you completely lose the dot).

With a variable on 1x, the location of your eye is absolutely critical (you eye must maintain the same
distance and alignment from the optic)

Now try to do either under stress, where even the most simple tasks can become completely impossible.

You will find the red dot much simpler and more forgiving to alignment errors.

Thats why a varible on 1X may work well for close combat, but will never surpass the red dot.

Without making broad accusations (meaning not everyone), I have observed that some might see the 1-4X as some kind of "super optic" that can perform all tasks.

That is why I say (to some) dont throw away your red dots just yet.

There is no "do all optic".

Just like there is no "do all caliber" or "super rifle".

Sometimes, I too am guilty of this kind of thinking. But then remember that the pursuit of such items is foolish.

With all that being said, I feel that the 1-4X will make a great addition to an optical inventory, that will, along with other optics afford you a greater lattitude of options.

regards

Calvin








Calvin, you bring up some good points. But I still stand by wht I said, for me personaly, I'm not saying it would be that way for everyone. I'm just as fast if not faster with my leupold as I am with dot sights. Again though I attribute that to the fact that I use the leupold way more then what I use a dot. Believe it or not once you get used to the variable optic yer head position is a little less critical then you'd think. Especially with that optic set at it's lowest power and at closer ranges(100 and under). I've used it under some stress, mind you not in any "ass on the line" situations but it's still pretty stressfull when yer moving and shooting and you got someone behind ya yelling at you non-stop and fireing off rounds. I have found that while some aspects of it can be a PITA, nothing is impossible. Familiarity with the optic and constant use means that you devise ways to get around things.

I don't plan on getting rid of the dot sight, my 11.5 will always have one on it. But for my 16in gun a 1-4 is the way to go. It's not that it's a "do all" optic, but it is very close. It gives you more options which is always good. Gives you a better oppertunity to ID potential threats and give you a bit more "precision" at longer ranges. Dot sights are definetly more forgiving but so far i have not found anything that I can do with a dot that I can't with the 1-4.
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 5:04:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 6:04:54 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 9:55:30 AM EDT
sn-4 owner here, I agree with most of your points.
However, with the battery-powered illumination option, the reticle is easily visible under all lighting conditions.
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 10:09:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 6:05:03 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 6:05:59 PM EDT

Calvin, you bring up some good points. But I still stand by wht I said, for me personaly, I'm not saying it would be that way for everyone. I'm just as fast if not faster with my leupold as I am with dot sights. Again though I attribute that to the fact that I use the leupold way more then what I use a dot. Believe it or not once you get used to the variable optic yer head position is a little less critical then you'd think. Especially with that optic set at it's lowest power and at closer ranges(100 and under). I've used it under some stress, mind you not in any "ass on the line" situations but it's still pretty stressfull when yer moving and shooting and you got someone behind ya yelling at you non-stop and fireing off rounds. I have found that while some aspects of it can be a PITA, nothing is impossible. Familiarity with the optic and constant use means that you devise ways to get around things.

I don't plan on getting rid of the dot sight, my 11.5 will always have one on it. But for my 16in gun a 1-4 is the way to go. It's not that it's a "do all" optic, but it is very close. It gives you more options which is always good. Gives you a better oppertunity to ID potential threats and give you a bit more "precision" at longer ranges. Dot sights are definetly more forgiving but so far i have not found anything that I can do with a dot that I can't with the 1-4.



Roger that.

Despite the cautionary criticism, I'm actually extremely excited about these optics.

I think I'll like the short dot or accupoint

regards

Calvin
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 6:24:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2005 8:16:30 PM EDT
Tag. Thanks for the review!
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