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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Trolling for Optics... RANT (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 7/27/2004 3:21:23 PM EDT
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Okay, I am a little confused at the recent events on this optic forum. I am mid 30's, divorced, father and gov't (ARMY) employee. So obviously I am not the biggest $ maker on this site. I take my weapons work fairly seriously, and it pisses me off to the Nth degree for those who don't. Between work and my hobby I put a fair amount of rounds down range a year.I view my hobby as an extension of work - with the old adage "Train as you fight, for you Fight as you Train" I did an optic review for a LE dept a few years ago, and have been bashing my head against the wall on optics at work (I despise the C79 and C79A2 Elcans in the role we use them) Now I know not everyone who owns an AR does it out of LE/MIL or TEOTWAKI preparedness. So obviously not everyone believes they require the same equipment. However I really question the logic of the buying mentality of some of the recent posters here - granted it is their money but it does seem to be a poor value added. I am a big fan of optics - however I think the basic should be learned with irons (as they are in the military - at least they were). Once the shooter is comfortable with irons and competant with the weapon, it may be a time to upgrade. Recently however the logic of spending the same amount of money on a mount, as they do on a 'clone' scope seems to be running rampant. If it were me I would recommend saving ones money and attending a carbine course with a knowldgeable professional instead of a seemingly wasteful purchase. -Kevin |
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I've been ranting here as long back as when I was the moderator of this forum that too many people try to "tech" their way to skill levels needed. I see the same thing with guys at work with their damn golf club ... $400 drivers and $300 putters for someone who has a 38 handicap. There is simply not substitute for practice. Formal training helps gain that practice correctly but nothing replaces time on the trigger. Another favorite rant is those who only shoot their rifles at the 100 yard range never taking their weapons into the field to shoot at things that aren't exactly 100 yards away in front of a concrete bench and a comfy chair! |
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Kevin, you make very good points. And I would not be one to cross you in a fight. But this is what I know. Guy's hunt with stuff that is not always the top of the line and I would have to say alot of the times they work. I've seen guys use cheap red dots and shoot deer with them. Just because something's cheap doesn't mean it falls apart the first time you look at it. Some of us may just not want to spend $300 when we can get something that fulfills our purpose for alot less money. If they really suck bad they wont stay around too long anyways. But if they work, they will fill a need. Just like cheap ammo fills a need. I don't by wolf but I'm sure glad black hills makes the blue box. If I had to shoot only premium ammo, I'd have to stick with my .22's. Now I feel black hills combines quality with good prices and they fill a niche. But I've seen guys use the red box over the blue and if they want to afford it that's great. But let's say I did buy a hakko and lets say I did have to use it in a defense situation, just because it isn't an aimpoint doesn't mean it wont work. I think. But like I said, if they're total crap they'll fall off the face of the earth in time anyways. But if it works, it'll be here to stay. In my most humble opinion. Please don't hurt me. I'm in Wisconsin I may be close to you. |
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So if I am happy with my ATN 5x33 atop The Milwaukee, does that make me an Airsofter because I can't afford an ACOG? I do see how it would if I bought a "lookalike ACOG" (my pet peeve), but if I bought what I thought was the best equipment and mounts in my pricerange? I don't see how spending $200 on the optic and $100 on the mount is "bad", and it has been through a few falls, and ridden in the trunk of the brassmobile in temps from -10 to 140 and holds zero... Battery life is still good. Is it a "bad choice"? I know I would like "no batteries", but that is out of my leage right now. Another AR has NightForce on it, I am sure that one qualifies the "gucci test". I think the line should be drawn by the people who get dealer cost and know pretty much what is "nice margin!" and "good stuff". |
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I really hate to get involved in this, but your assumption that someone buying a lesser Scope or Red-Dot is trying to buy a "Skill-level" is ridiculous, I've been hunting for 28 years (add another 5 if you want to include all the birds and lizards I terrorized with my pellet gun) and I just bought my first scope 2 years ago, a Weaver 3-9. So I'm plenty comfortable with "Irons" Now Red-Dots I'm new to, I don't know if I'll like one. For a year I've been debating on what to buy, or if I should buy one, I almost pushed the BUY button on everything from Eotechs and AimPoints to OKO's and Millets, but I just wasn't sure if I wanted to either; A.) blow big cash on something I wasn't sure I wanted, or would work for me considering the vision in my right eye has faded a bit causing me to have a cross eye-dominance issue. or B.) buy something that was going to not work, thus giving me a bad impression of the whole "Red-Dot" thing. After reading several good reviews here and other places on these TacPoints, I still wasn't sure if I wanted to throw $150 at one, but as I've already stated, there is now a group buy going on, so I can get one for $95 shipped. I figured I'd try one out. I have no fantasies about this being up to Mil-Spec standards, being water proof, able to drop from a helicopter and still work, but I do think it will work fine for a test, to see if this is a way I might want to go with my AR15, no more than that. I don't have a problem at all with those of you that know much more than I do about this stuff trying to give me guidance, your help is apreciated, what I do have a problem with is being berated and taunted after making MY choice, the choice that effects only one person, ME, and then having someone trolling every single discussion about that product with loud-mouthed bullshit, ruining any information that might be their. Now I also disagree with some of the discussion on the pro-Tacpoint side, some of the argument is rediculous, the speculation that this might be the equal of an Aimpoint is a bit twisted, and the baiting of the Anti-Tacpoint crowd by some of those people isn't helping this whole mess. |
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Frankly, I think the behavior on both sides of the aisle has been bush league. I'd like to be able to move on to some constructive critisim of these Tacpoints so we all know what we're dealing with, but I'm starting to believe that there's a better chance that the jews and arabs will resolve their differences first... My Tacpoint is a temporary solution. As soon as I can afford an Eotech 552 the Tacpoint is going onto my kid's 10/22. As for my varminter, a Trijicon Accupoint (3X9 with red reticle) is already in the works. Edited to emphasize the first line |
For your application, I would recommend the ATN UltraSight. They are $160, and a holgraphic disc red dot sight that has gotten good reviews. This is from another "medium speed, medium drag" guy looking for something for "everyday shooting" while treating the rifle in normal conditions. Again, this is just me, and there are only a few ATN products I actively recommend. Basically anything but their variable power scopes, once you get to what they started doing, night vision, then they have some good stuff. For the optic you mentioned (I will not repeat the name), I personally firmly believe that you are paying more for "the look" than you are for "the optic". If you buy the ATN UltraSight and do not like it, I will buy it back from you. (same goes for the ATN 5x33L scope), so long as you paid below retail, and didn't do the "toss onto concrete" test. For gear I need to function 100% in any condition, then $200 extra is worth the peace of mind. When trying to get decent sights on all my guns, well, I can't afford that, so look for the best in my pricerange. |
I suggest the TACPOINT.  It's LOW SPEED, HIGH DRAG to fit your particular needs without overspending for something that you might not like in the first place. |
Look at this creep, he's starting shit already and you guys are blaming the Mods. |
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Obviously my point was missed by some. I could not care what people use - just learn to use what you have, and learn it well. Paul said it quite well
However what REALLY pisses me off is people who don't have a specific item giving it glowing reviews - this happened a time ago with the Leupold CQ/T (which I have found to be a POS for what I want) I am not the Aimpoint love crowd (I like the EoTech better for a doorkicker sight) and I think the TA31 is ideal GP military scope. That said I have an Aimpoint. I have had C-Mores, OKO's and many others. KIT cannot do your job - it might make your job easier. -Kevin |
What shit did I start? I was answering the question posed by MUDBUG. Why are you flaming ME? I haven't done SHIT to you, GET OFF MY BACK TROLL!  INCITING A NEGATIVE RESPONSE IS AGAINST COC. 6.) Repeatedly attacking or insulting a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner. |
You are a troll too. INCITING A NEGATIVE RESPONSE IS AGAINST COC. 6.) Repeatedly attacking or insulting a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner. |
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For your application, I would recommend the ATN UltraSight. They are $160, and a holgraphic disc red dot sight that has gotten good reviews. BP, I'm with you on your point but I'd like to expand on it if you don't mind Sir . I own the ATN and the OKO and the OKO's dot shows up better in bright sunlight... Otherwise they are pretty much the same. As another point, just in my own experience/opinion.  I'd like to hold a Tacpoint to check it out though.... |
Not much to expand on really. When you have backlighting or bright light, it is down to a matter of efficiency. I haven't compared the two side by side, so I can't really say one or the other, but I can say that either would be better than the third option mentioned. The reason I say this is that from the price, at least 10% of cost was used for aesthetic reasons on "that other sight", whereas ATN and OKO (and C-More and... <insert here>) are priced according to what the dealer felt was right after building/testing them. I will buy either back if purchased in the sub $160 range and the owner is not 100% satisfied. I do not represent ANY company, other than just "what is right". I know very intimately how much some companies will spend on making something "look like" something else and barely mimic function. I believe form should follow function, not the other way around. The cheap items that are brought up here are based on form is function. I hope that clears things up. |
 LOL! Well, I've learned something today.Moderators are allowed to troll threads & open new topics to continue trolling and goading other members even in violation of the precious Code of Conduct that they enforce on the rest of us plebes. And, they have made an official stand on what products are worthy to discuss: Locked
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Well, arfcom credibility flushes itself down the shitpipe again.......  I like Aimpoints, but what went on today was not only childish, but an all new low and I see condonded by AR15.com staff as long as it's done by one of the fold.  ~ s0ulzer0 |
I misunderstood the situation and thought the Tacpoint scope(s) were Airsoft items. I have since been brought up to speed, but cannot edit the locking comment. Please refer to the Announcement above, which is merely a reiteration of the old policy--two threads to a topic, and the forum not being dominated by multiple threads on the same topic. As to the bickering and such, it will stop--by all involved. No one is above the Conduct Code--and most especially Mods. We're just trying to restore a little order. This forum is a technical forum and expected to be used in a business-like manner, but it was more chaotic than GD. Hopefully things will be more orderly now, and thus more useful for all. Thanks for understanding. 
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Understood.~ s0ulzer0 |
I started to make this comment on the members only forum, but was to late as it was locked (with good reason). How many tacpoint lovers have actually held one in their hands, turned it on and talked with the company about it? Well I have done all of these things have owned the BED-24 (a better optic than the tacpoint IMHO). So it is my OPINION that the tacpoint is just ok at best and wouldn't even put one on a plinking rifle (use irons instead). This is of course my opinion and should not be taken as gospel!!! Also, please don't question my opinion of the optic unless you have at the VERY least done what I have with i!  C4 |
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How many people would even be interested in a Tacpoint if they didn't look just like an Aimpoint? There are several other red-dots in a similar price range that do the same thing. "Most" of them have their uses, it's just a matter of what fits your needs. Personally, I've tried my share of cheapo scopes and red-dots and have had nothing but dissapointment. My "play time" is not what it used to be, so it would be nice if the stuff I buy can be counted on to work when I want to use it. I just don't have the confidence in the less proven stuff to take the gamble. I will buy the proven optics, and if I don't like them, I can actually sell it and not have throw it away (or shoot it). G-CODE.....Aimpoint, Eotech, ACOG and former cheapo optic owner. |
EXACTLY! I said that earlier, but no one caught on. Doesn't anyone think it is strange that they make the tacpoint look just like the Aimpoint??? They have other optics (that are better that than the tacpoint IMHO), but there is almost zero interest in them. Is it possible that they realized if they make it look like the real thing that they will attract more air soft commandos and folks that just can't afford an Aimpoint, but want the mil-spec "look" anyway??? Once again these are my opinions and not FACTS! Also, if you have not handled the tacpoint and either the hakko BED-24 or BED-35 (to compare the two as I have) there is no need for you to comment on my post.... C4 |
I actually believe Lumpys statement to be a fact based upon other threads where Aimpoint owners were called Gucci and other names... C4 |
Unfortunately, NONE of these "Tacpoint lovers" have made claims as to whether or not the product WAS good/bad. They simply asked for input from those who may have had one, but all they got in return was insults. No "Tacpoint lover" claimed to know WHY the scope was "great" or "better", which is quite unlike the claims of the "Tacpoint haters" (who seemed to know EVERYTHING one needs to know about a scope in order to make a statement of opinion. Apples and oranges, C4. Apples and oranges. |
Doesn't it seem strange that one company's gallon of milk looks just like ANOTHER company's gallon of milk? Doesn't it seem strange that Burger King's french fries look just like Whataburger's french fries? Doesn't it seem strange that Coca-Cola looks just like Pepsi-Cola? Doesn't it seem strange that Mobil gasoline looks just like Amoco's gasoline? Doesn't it seem strange that this tree over here looks like that tree over there? Errr ... No. It doesn't. |
"Careful Kevin, someone will come along and call you a poser and a Gucci-gear buyer." Fact begins with "something HAS happened." Opinion begins with "something WILL happen". You be the judge. BTW: You never answered me on that CQB CST sling. Do you have the #206 with the ERB in black? |
Some are interested in learning more about the tacpoint and that is why I have stated my OPINION (not gospel) about them. Others are into calling Aimpoint owners "Gucci Girls" or some other ignorant name because they view the tacpoint as un-battle tested optic and want nothing to do with it (I am one of these). All my rifles (even my Ruger 10/22) I view as a tool to defend my family. The lowest grade optic that I own is a JPoint. I can make the statement that the tacpoint is a junk based on what I have seen and held. As I stated in the other thread, my (and many others ) are concerned that someone (that is new to gear world) will see these threads and think that the tacpoint is a good choice for protecting their loved ones. It is a poor substitute at best for an Aimpoint and everyone would be much better off with a used Aimpoint or used EOTech IMHO. Disagree with my OPINION of the tacpoint? Don't respond unless you have handled and looked through the tacpoint! C4 |
The point I am trying to make is if Hakko thought they had a real winner on their hands, why would they need to make it look like another (mil-spec) optic? If it was that good then it would stand on its own merits... C4 |
Knowing our current troll situation is GOING to happen. They cannot resist the urge to say Gucci! No joy on the #206. I would have responded sooner, but have been to busy hunting! C4 |
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The bottom line is the Tacpoint is a Airsoft TOY and always will be. When they start to break in the next 12 months all of you are going to say, Boom was right! You know its true and I know its true. If you want to believe that they are not sold on airsoft websites that is up to you, nothing will change the fact that it is a TOY optic not meant to be installed on real rifles. If you want a cheap dot sight then go buy a cheap dot sight.
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You've got to be kidding, right? First off, trees occur in nature. Don't think patents apply to trees. Fries? Milk? Soda??? You're comparing liquids and foods to products that require years of R&D, many parts (some moving, some electronic) and many different materials, you can't be serious. Let's be honest. You don't care about screwing over another company, you only care about saving a few bucks. That must be the case, since you never responded to my post over here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=195736&page=5 |
Here we go again, trolling and stirring the pot. ~ s0ulzer0 |
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| I'm sorry, I agree with KevinB in his is original post. And yes, I fast forward to this point. I'm fed up with the BS from likes of "Mr SPR". Something like 600+ post since joining on 7/4/04. This is totally out of control. PERIOD. Its getting to point that I will not even check the Optical Forum. If these "individuals" want to buy "what ever", so be it. It is time to end this BS. Either this is an real weapons forum or its not. MODS & Site, its your choice. |
Good advise. Most people would rather buy hardware than software - it's something you can touch & feel, bring home and fondle. For me, I've done both. Good optics and training courses. |
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Guarder announces new product It looks like someone came up with the idea to remarket these here in the US under another name, they added a rubber bra and sratched Tacpoint into the side. Please do not tell me that it does not look like a Tacpoint. They are saying it is a advanced design. Now please no name calling, lets act like big boys. Heres the story on who makes and developes Guarder products. About us Intrudershop/Guarder |
Oh thx for the name calling and the insults, I don't remember calling you any names or insulting you. I am a big boy so its OK if you wish to act like a child it will not bother me.
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I think there is no more proof needed as to who was starting the flaming. Not only that but continues to ignore beekeeper 1's post. Someone higher up the chain needs to rethink what they are looking for in a Moderator, if this is a shining example of the type on this site. I know of websites where Moderators lost their position for far less. Keep it up and this place will deteriorate to the level of another site or two I can name, but don't go to. Y'all work it out.  Lonny |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Trolling for Optics... RANT (Page 1 of 3)
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