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Posted: 1/15/2004 4:26:37 PM EDT
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I've been searching through the forums here trying to decide which optic to purchase for my 16" bbl A3 Bushmaster M4gery. I currently have an Eotech 552(E) that I purchased from C4iGrant (thanks for the killer deal and great customer service!) mounted directly to my A3 upper. It's a great optic, but I'm thinking that I'd like to upgrade to powered glass and the TA31 seems to be the one to buy, according to past ARFCOM opinion polls. My needs are: Heavy duty optic that won't hinder shooting whether it's 1 yard or 500. Waterproof and FOGPROOF, as I live in southern Washington: the sky is a beautiful gray and it rains about 90% of the year. My questions are: Any reason (other than price) that I should be looking at an optic other than the TA31? Mounting recommendations? Can anyone offer any other general input to help me make a more informed buying decision? Any word on price and availability? Being pampered by the Eotech, I'm concerned about eye relief. Anyone had problems with the ACOGs or the TA31 in particular? Thanks in advance, guys! |
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The TA31’s & TA11’s I highly recommend for an AR15. The type of ranges you are look to shoot reinsures that you are looking for a Trijicon. Mounts I would recommend are the 19s and the TA51. The 19s ($109) is a ACOG Single Throw Lever mount and will return to zero. The TA51 ($58) has two thumbnuts that will hold the mount in place. Both are good and you will not go wrong with them. The 19s is really nice setup. We have the TA31A in stock and they are going quick. [url]www.csgunworks.com[/url] [b]Here’s some testimonial about CS GunWorks for AR15 Board[/b] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=169925&page=1[/url] |
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Unless you're planning on submerging it under 2 meters of water for more than a dezen hours, I'd say its water proof/resistance properties are more than enough for most of us[;)] Eye relief is short, you best have a short stock or a retractable stock. On a Colt 4 position stock, I use the 2nd (4th being fully extended). I recommend ARMS 19S, you can't find a finer mount. Trijicon's TA51 mount is ok, but I like the quick detach feature. CS Gunworks has a great reputation (though I haven't dealt with them, and being in CA I don't wanna pay the sales tax [:p]), also try SWFA [url]www.swfa.com[/url], and Grant [url]www.gandrtactical.com [/url] I'm thinking of trading my TA11 for a TA31...anyone interested? [:d] |
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I'm currently using an ARMS #40 BUIS with the Eotech. I'd prefer to keep the BUIS on the rifle with my new ACOG. A little insurance never hurt! Do all the TA31's feature the BAC, or is it simply an option? How do the TA31 BAC models perform at closer ranges (100 or less, 25 or less, hallway or less...)? Thanks for all the help! |
| All TA31 models have BAC. BAC takes practice to master (I haven't yet), I think it's still faster to use a 1x optic like Aimpoint and EOTech for CQB, but since you got to identify your targets before shooting, the magnification comes in handy at 50yds and beyond and when the target is not conviniently colored in black human torso shape in a white background. |
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The ARMS #19s is a single throw mount. I've never used such a mount before, so bear with me if this is a stupid question but what are the chances of the throw lever getting snagged on something at a "bad time" and my $1,000-ish piece of kit drops to the floor at my feet? One in a million or a possibility with a throw level mount? What types of dedicated mounts does ARMS offer for the TA31 ACOG? Opinions on going this route? How easy/quick would such a mount be to take off, if need be? I'm wondering if removing my BUIS and adding a dedicated mount to the rear of the receiver would be the way to go with the TA31. It'd help eliminate the need to get so close to the charging handle (I tend to keep my face back a little ways for the CH when shooting) and make my "throw level mishap" scenario a moot point. I toyed with a friend's ACOG a couple of years ago. It had some kind of funky built-in BUIS on top of the unit. Was this an optional feature that he ordered or is this standard on the ACOG lineup? How well do they actually work? Thanks for all the answers and help thus far. II'm aware that it's the guy and not the gear that makes things happen, but I appreciate the help in determining the inherent capabilities of the ACOG. It's good to hear that the BAC will be on par with a dot sight: I like the "speed" of my Eotech but certainly wouldn't mind some magnification. Most of the shooting I like to do is 1-100 fast-paced, multiple target stuff. I'm glad that I can still have the inherent speed of a dot sight and still add magnification to the mix. Fun, fun, fun! Anyhow: what about the throw lever issue, dedicated mounts and built-in BUIS? Thanks, guys! |
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The cheveron of the TA31F is the way to go. Its not too fine for quick shots. As you can see, the lit area is still a big enough mass to pick up with you're eye quickly in close up BAC type shots. IMHO [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20166[/img] |
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"chances of the throw lever getting snagged on something at a "bad time" " very slim "and my $1,000-ish piece of kit drops to the floor at my feet?" put it right back on! "What types of dedicated mounts does ARMS offer for the TA31 ACOG? " 19s is the best, one lever, and it works with the ARMS40. "I'm wondering if removing my BUIS and adding a dedicated mount to the rear of the receiver would be the way to go with the TA31. It'd help eliminate the need to get so close to the charging handle (I tend to keep my face back a little ways for the CH when shooting) and make my "throw level mishap" scenario a moot point." A TA31A or F would suit you fine. I like the donut myself, it'll hit anything you're looking to, and it'shape is easier to pick up on when jumping target to target, to me anyway - note my experience is 100% range-tested only! "I toyed with a friend's ACOG a couple of years ago. It had some kind of funky built-in BUIS on top of the unit. Was this an optional feature that he ordered or is this standard on the ACOG lineup? " Comes standard with the TA01NSN. Skip that model and go for the TA31. "How well do they actually work? " Go for the TA31, military can't get enough of them! "Thanks for all the answers and help thus far. II'm aware that it's the guy and not the gear that makes things happen, but I appreciate the help in determining the inherent capabilities of the ACOG. " [beer] "Most of the shooting I like to do is 1-100 fast-paced, multiple target stuff. I'm glad that I can still have the inherent speed of a dot sight and still add magnification to the mix. " The EoTech is awesome and will take good care of you 200 yards and under! Do you NEED the ACOG? It takes practice and will feel wierd to you until you spend some time with it. |
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Quoted: Do all the TA31's feature the BAC, or is it simply an option? How do the TA31 BAC models perform at closer ranges (100 or less, 25 or less, hallway or less...)? Thanks for all the help! Just to clarify, BAC stands for "Bindon Aiming Concept". It's not a material or mechanical feature of a scope. It's just a concept that can be adapted to a scope with a clear and bright reticle. We commonly use both of our eyes to look at objects. The image that we receive from each eye is slightly different than the other, but our brain mends both images, and we perceive to see only 1 image. This is called binocular vision. The "Bindon Aiming Concept" is just the concept of looking through a scope with ONE eye, and keeping the other eye open. The two different pictures we recieve from each eye (1 without reticle, 1 with reticle, and maybe zoomed), will be mended together in our brain just like normal binocular vision. But instead of 1 plain image, you now have a reticle in your mended image. Anyway, don't think that BAC is some secret special electronics or mechanics that are installed in some scopes. It's just a concept of using a scope - and it doesn't have to be Trijicon, Aimpoint, Eotech, or any other big names. You can use the Bindon Aiming Concept with any other scope that has similiar qualities. This is how I understand it anyhow. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. -Jim |
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"and my $1,000-ish piece of kit drops to the floor at my feet?" put it right back on! Amen to that. I dropped my new TA31 on the concrete about 2 weeks after getting it. A couple of minor cosmetic dings, but it remained zeroed afterwards. I love this optic! Call Mike at CSGunworks. He will take care of you. Bud |
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[b]"Anyway, don't think that BAC is some secret special electronics or mechanics that are installed in some scopes. It's just a concept of using a scope - and it doesn't have to be Trijicon, Aimpoint, Eotech, or any other big names. You can use the Bindon Aiming Concept with any other scope that has similiar qualities."[/b] My understanding was that the BAC was the fiberoptic cable on top of the unit that allowed your reticle to glow in brighter lighting conditions...am I wrong? [b]"Amen to that. I dropped my new TA31 on the concrete about 2 weeks after getting it. A couple of minor cosmetic dings, but it remained zeroed afterwards."[/b] Hehehehehe...I'm not worried about damage to the optic but rather having it happen (the 19s' lever getting snagged) during one of my frequent shootouts with Mutant Zombie Bikers. ;-) |
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Quoted: One in a million or a possibility with a throw level mount? Eh... freaky things happen in life; but I'd say it is a remote possibility. Whatever would do that would have to be A) strong enough to be able to flip the lever but B) small enough to fit into the channel and C) not get snagged on any of the more obvious protruding gear on most ARs. What types of dedicated mounts does ARMS offer for the TA31 ACOG? ARMS #10 (thumbscrew), ARMS #19ACOG (two throw-levers, eats more rail space), ARMS #19S (small footprint, single throwlever) Opinions on going this route? How easy/quick would such a mount be to take off, if need be? I would recommend the #19S. Very easy to remove the mount quickly if you need to. The ACOG and ARMS #19S is actually tough enough that you can drop it like a spare mag in a speed reload and transition to irons very quickly. I've actually done this; but I wouldn't have the heart to do it very often with such an expensive optic. It's good to hear that the BAC will be on par with a dot sight: I like the "speed" of my Eotech but certainly wouldn't mind some magnification. BAC is fast but it can take some time to master. For me, the dot sights are still faster at close range. If you haven't read the entirety of the "General Purpose Optics" thread tacked at the top of the forum, it is a good read and has info that may be useful to you. My understanding was that the BAC was the fiberoptic cable on top of the unit that allowed your reticle to glow in brighter lighting conditions...am I wrong? The fiberoptic just helps illuminate the reticle and allows the better contrast that makes BAC possible; but you can use the concept with any high-contrast reticle. Some people with better eyes than mine can even use it with plain jane unilluminated crosshairs. |
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Quoted: On the other hand, if you're not using a BUIS you can mount it all the way back, unless you're like bsbg that likes the nose to charging handel stance [;)] [url]www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid77/p4487f8a817bd964b76c72d6a4d0dad52/fb313e53.jpg[/url] Who says the TA31 eye relief its too short? Hang on to your rifle like you mean it man [:D] I run the collapsible in one notch, or use an A1 length fixed. When I got the 19S I monunted it right up against the #40 and smacked myself in the glasses, so it went one notch forward. ARMS #40 with ARMS 19S, and GG&G MAD with Trijicon TA51 mount: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=18187[/img] |
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Thanks for the clarification on BAC. The "Concept" part of that acronym should have given it away...my bad. Sigh. Just when I thought I had my reticle all picked out. 1. Could someone be so kind as to post the various models and which reticle it's equipped with (I.E. TA31A: Reticle Blah Blah and so on)? 2. Is the donut difficult to use on those rarer shots in the 100-300 range? Understanding as always that it is the guy and not the gear but would the donut itself be inherently more difficult to pick up targets at the longer ranges, or will the perceived "shrinkage" of the reticle when looking at distant targets (as mentioned in the "Best General Purpose Optic" thread) make up for it? Hope #2 made sense! 3. Hmmm...the triangle reticle seems interesting...in stock too. Crap. What the Hell to do. Buy a TA31A now or wait a month for the Donut model... Most of my shooting is 100 and less, as mentioned before, but I don't want to handicap myself with the Donut if it doesn't perform well at the longer ranges (100-300 for my tastes). Sigh. Opinions? |
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Quoted: 1. Could someone be so kind as to post the various models and which reticle it's equipped with (I.E. TA31A: Reticle Blah Blah and so on)? Not to be an ass, but it's all at [url]www.trijicon.com[/url] 2. Is the donut difficult to use on those rarer shots in the 100-300 range? Understanding as always that it is the guy and not the gear but would the donut itself be inherently more difficult to pick up targets at the longer ranges, or will the perceived "shrinkage" of the reticle when looking at distant targets (as mentioned in the "Best General Purpose Optic" thread) make up for it? Hope #2 made sense! No problem at all with longer shots. Since the donut is hollow, it gives you distinct aiming point for 100, 200 and 300 m. Beyond that, you are into the 'ladder' portion of the reticle. 3. Hmmm...the triangle reticle seems interesting...in stock too. Crap. What the Hell to do. Buy a TA31A now or wait a month for the Donut model... The reason the triangle is in stock is that many people do not like it. It offers a precise aiming point at 100, but ranges beyond that , before entering the 'ladder' portion, are somewhere in the triangle, which covers the target. Most of my shooting is 100 and less, as mentioned before, but I don't want to handicap myself with the Donut if it doesn't perform well at the longer ranges (100-300 for my tastes). Sigh. Opinions? Once again, the donut is anything but a handicap. 200 is right in the hollow center, which corresponds pretty well it 50 m as well. 300 m is at the bottom edge. Simple and fast. One more thing - before you drop $900 on a scope, you should try one, or all, to find the one that works best [i]for you[/i]. You may like the chevron, but hate the donut. You may love the donut but feel you can live with the triangle. Find someone with one and try it before sinking amjor capital into something that you may not be happy with based on the recommendations you read on the 'net [;)]. |
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Quoted: ..... snip ..... My needs are: Heavy duty optic that won't hinder shooting whether it's 1 yard or 500. .... snip .... Being pampered by the Eotech, I'm concerned about eye relief. Anyone had problems with the ACOGs or the TA31 in particular? Thanks in advance, guys! Most of the guys have a lot more trigger time on the ACOGs than myself, however, after shopping for a year picked up a TA31 to go with a couple of Aimpoints on various M16 uppers, my two cents is: In your case since your are concerned with eyerelief (which on the TA31 is fairly short), would also consider the TA11 hightly. For distances of a 5 yards to 25 yards, I still like the Aimpoint (or friends Eotechs ;-), better than the ACOG. My take is the ACOG is a very good X4 scope, which the bright aiming point works GREAT and in an emergency can be used inside of a room. The Aimpoint and Eotechs are still better out to 25 plus yards (as a side note, one does not see BAC ACOGs at subgun matches). This said, have you considered a 2nd flat top upper for your rifle to put the ACOG on (maybe even a nice A2 profile) and keep the Eotech upper? Well have to run now and go shopping for a 2nd ACOG ;-). |
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Quoted: In your case since your are concerned with eyerelief (which on the TA31 is fairly short), would also consider the TA11 hightly. I bought a TA-31 last year and I'm starting to think about replacing with a TA-11 because of the TA-31's short eye relief. That being said, I do like the extra magnification of the TA-31 compared to the TA-11 so I'll be putting in some more trigger time with it before I make a decision. What I'll probably end up doing it keeping the TA-31 and get a TA-11 as well. I like having backups I guess [:)]. Two is one and one is none, right? |
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Well, since no one's mentioned it (unless I skimmed past it just now) don't forget the carry handle mount option: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7727[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7742[/img] Why sweat all the "Will it fit?" or "Will it fail?" BUIS falalala when there's a perfectly good system available and built right in? As you can see, this is a detachable carry handle - my Bushy's an A3, too. -El Roto Auto Response System Returns to Standby Mode- |
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[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/p045f7c718e3d2a046f722c56f81cebfc/fc420f70.jpg[/img] On the handle is not the way I like to set up a full size ACOG, but I have a few friends who do very well with it. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/p1294767bb2efd60c62d730ba842872e2/fc42196e.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/p2135176d89aa8e339775eec6c3256cba/fa142391.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p3c0111b9e5c8ca6eb23dab69f6730ec2/fc68a4ca.jpg[/img] |
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