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Posted: 11/9/2003 10:39:48 AM EDT
First off, I have zero experience with magnified optics of any kind.
The range I go to is limited to 100yds, but I do go to a range every now and again that has targets out to 550yds.
That's why I would like some magnification. See, I want to buy one scope that will do everything, and from reading these posts month after month, I realize that's a little unrealistic. It's all about flexibility.
I have a Colt w/16" bbl, #46 Sir and #40a rear BUIS.
I figure the C/ACOG would come real close to fitting my needs. I just can't decide on a 2X or 3X. The 3X will get me out there a little farther, but at the same time the FOV will be a little more restrictive and eye relief will be a little shorter. Not being a nose to charging handle kind of shooter makes this a bit of a concern. I am leaning toward the 3X with red triangle and I figure with the BAC feature(once I get used to it)close ups should be quick.
Again, since I don't have any experience with magnified optics, maybe some of you that do can share your experience. I only want to do this once.

Also, how would the heigth of the C/ACOG be mounted on a #19S on a Sir? High? Low? Would another mount work better?
Thanks
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:18:05 AM EDT
I am leaning toward the 3X with red triangle and I figure with the BAC feature(once I get used to it)close ups should be quick. I appoligize I don't want to highjack your thread but I would like for someone to quickly explain to me what the BAC feature is. Thanks AG.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:30:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 11:31:57 AM EDT by MaverickMkii]
(Hijack alert) If you are really concerned about FoV, I'd suggest you look into TA31 series. My dad has a 3x Compact ACOG with amber reticule, and I recently bought TA31. When I looked into my dad's Compact ACOG again, it seemed like looking through a straw. But Compact ACOG are about 1/2 heavy and cheaper. A.I don't think your C.Acog will be high on a SIR. B.2x will give you about 2 inches of eye relief, and 3x will give you about 1.4 inches. I don'k think you will ahve any eye relief problems since you are mounting it on a rail, not a carry handle, so you can adjust that a bit. C.3x will be plenty for you to engage man-sized targets out to 500 yards. IIRC, Mr. Fight4yourrights has first hand experience.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 6:31:46 PM EDT
You say that your not a nose to the charging handle person, if your not don't go with the 3x compact acog. Also don't go with the TA-31 because the eye relief is the same as the compact 3x models. The TA-31 will have a better exit pupil so you won't get the looking through a straw effect that MaverickMkii talks about but it still has poor eye relief. The compact 2x will be better but 2x won't get you out to 550 yards as well. A TA-11 has an eye relief of 2.4" and a much better exit pupil so it's much more forgiving then either the TA-31 or the compact models. Nothings perfect thought so with the TA-11 it is 14oz in weight and longer, it is just a bigger scope.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:29:16 PM EDT
I appreciate your help and input. I don't shoot very often at the range that has targets to 550yds. Most of my shooting is at the 100yd range. So the 2X would probably be just fine there. I just figure the 3X will give me more flexibility and I'm not sure that the 1.4" of eye relief is going to be a problem. I really wish I had access to both a 2X and a 3X to try, but I don't. I've read the specs on both, I'm just not sure how it all translates into usage in the field.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:01:34 PM EDT
I'm a nose the the charging handle person. I had a 2x and traded it in on the 3x. A bruised nose is better than a missed target. I modified my carry handle to give me 1.5" more distance from the charging handle by drilling a hole further back just before the curve of the back portion. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=11624[/img] This does limit the travel on the iron sights to just 300 yards but then that's what the scope is there for right?
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:11:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ipsc: I am leaning toward the 3X with red triangle and I figure with the BAC feature(once I get used to it)close ups should be quick. I appoligize I don't want to highjack your thread but I would like for someone to quickly explain to me what the BAC feature is. Thanks AG.
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The BAC is the plasic rod along the top of the scope which gathers enough light to cause the center of the retical to glow. Keeping both eyes open as the rifle swings into position you see 1x field of view. When the rifle steadys on the target the right eye centered in the scope focuses the target - sort of auto-zooming. Every low power scope allows you to do this - Trijicon BAC or not - the tube lights up the retical enough that it's easy to follow around while moving. People who have never tried it have difficulties understanding the technique. For close up shots try using the iron sights - they are amazing and very useful out to 100 yards or more. I spend my practice time shooting full-size human silouettes from freehand and off hand shooting stances. If you're shooting bullesyes from the bench or prone with a bi-pod you'll never learn your sights and your abilities. You'll learn the range at which you can hit a person with a round with irons and glass. I'll use my laser range finder afterwards and get use to what a person looks like with my eyeballs and though the glass at various ranges. Inside of 225 yards is point blank range for the .223 or .308. After learning how small someone looks at 225 yards you'll notice that there's not many places you can shoot someone at those ranges - and if they're working at hiding you'll not see someone who isn't moving at those ranges any who.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:27:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 8:32:09 PM EDT by M-Forgery]
BAC is a concept, not the fiberoptic tube on the ACOG. From www.trijion.com... "Human vision is based upon a binocular (two eyes) presentation of visual evidence to the brain. Vision research material was examined for its assistance to understand the optically aided weapon aiming process. The simple substitution of a bright red dot for the usual cross-hairs makes it very easy to keep both eyes open, the brain merges the two images. During dynamic movement, the scene through the telescope blurs because the image moves more rapidly due to magnification. The one eye sees the bright dot against the blurred target scene, so the brain picks the scene from the unaided eye. The shooter swings the weapon towards the target while perceiving the dot indicating where the weapon is pointed. As soon as the weapon begins to become steady in the target area, the brain switches to the magnified view." Glyn Bindon was the originator of this concept. I have a TA50-6, 3x, amber dot and love it.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:40:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M-Forgery: BAC is a concept, not the fiberoptic tube on the ACOG. ...snipage... Glyn Bindon was the originator of this concept.
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Yeah I know and with all due respect to Mr. Bindon it works with every scope I've tried below 5x power including a couple of Burris scopes, a Springfield Armory, a few Simmons, a 4x33mm "Professional", and an IOR M1 scope some of who's manufacture pre-dates Trijicon's marketing of the BAC. The "concept" is just a "concept"! [shock] I don't know if you can pattent a "concept" or not but if Trijicon did they better get their lawyers busy! What you will notice is that every Trijicon scope with the "concept" has the plasic rod and that every Trijicon scope withou the "concept" doesn't! It's a light gathering fiber-optic tube that does make using the "concept" easier as the retical is brightly lit up where say on my Burris 3x shotgun scope it's not. I know what a "concept" is, what a fiber-optic tube is, and what a marketing term is too [:D]. The BAC is a marketing term for the fiber-optic tube which has no effect on the "concept" though it does make following a moving retical easier ... and I'm happy it's there and I paid extra for it being there.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 9:36:02 PM EDT
If you mounted the scope direct to the rail Id say get a 2X but since it will be on a SIR rail it can be mounted further back and a 3X would be a good choice as well. I suggest you stay with the red triangle. Also stay with the non special ring version if you are mounting on a rail.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 7:45:20 AM EDT
DevL That was going to be my next question, the fact that I will be mounting it on a SIR, will there be some leeway where I will be able to adjust it somewhat to get a little more eye relief. Also, what mount would work best, a TA60 or 19S, as far as height? These mounts make it so you can mount the model with an M16 base to a rail right? I figure if I get the M16 base model if I get rid of my SIR and go back to the carry handle than I can use it on either. Thanks for all the good info guys.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 4:12:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2003 4:12:52 PM EDT by DevL]
Yes those convert the carry handle mount to rail mount. The TA60 is lower and closer to ideal but the 19S is quick detatch. You have to decide what is more important to you. You will have more leeway by less than an inch in rearward mounting by going on the SIR rail but that is all you need to be able to use the 3X if you wish.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 4:38:23 PM EDT
Tagged for later, considering a compact ACOG for my Colt M4orgery 16" with SIR. You guys ROCK! Danny
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 6:12:59 AM EDT
The TA60 is lower and closer to ideal but the 19S is quick detatch.
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Are you sure that is right? I thought the TA51 (full size ACOG flattop mount) is lower than the #19S (ARMS throw-lever ACOG mount) which is lower than the TA60 (compact ACOG flattop mount).
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 9:38:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: The TA60 is lower ....
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Switch that. The TA60 is higher (and closer to ideal for the Compact AGOCs). The ARMS#19 is a great base - but a bit low for the Compact ACOGs
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 10:55:07 AM EDT
Yes I was not paying attention. TA51 is the lower mount then the 19S then the 60. You dont want the 60 on a SIR you want either the 51 or the 19S. I was thinking 51 and forgot about the 60 because almost noone has one on this board.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 11:02:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MaverickMkii: C.3x will be plenty for you to engage man-sized targets out to 500 yards. IIRC, Mr. Fight4yourrights has first hand experience.
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That is correct. Took it my 1st time out to a Marine Corps pop-up, man sized 3D target range and got #2 score overall, and my personal best score. I really like the 3x compact ACOG
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 3:25:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2003 3:30:38 PM EDT by M4bangr]
Obviously everyone is a little different, but you think I would be better off with the 19S on a SIR and that the TA60 would be a little too high?
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 11:22:15 PM EDT
No I feel the TA60 on a SIR is too high. If you want my persoanl feeling nothig mounts the height I would like with the compact ACOG line. The closest is the 19S and TA60 direct on a flat top. The 19S is too low the TA60 too high. Then again I am really weird and picky.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 5:55:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2003 5:57:32 AM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By DevL: .... I was thinking 51 and forgot about the 60 because almost noone has one on this board.
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[bounce]Me! Me! Over Here![bounce] I do! Of course I'm one of the few on this board with the cool optics who doesn't run a SIR or RAS either. Good idea to use the ARMS #19 if you have a SIR.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 8:57:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2003 9:01:23 AM EDT by M4bangr]
Good idea to use the ARMS #19 if you have a SIR. Forest You mean 19S right?
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 9:30:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4bangr: Forest You mean 19S right?
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Correct.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 11:04:27 AM EDT
Thanks a bunch guys. I really appreciate all you guys taking the time to answer some of my dumb-ass questions and sharing your knowledge and experiences. It sure makes it a lot easier when you have the right info. Thanks again.
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